FGW train stranded at Pewsey

[KA4C]

As I say, any idiot can be a critic after the event and suddenly everyone is an expert on what should have happened. It's very different dealing with events as they unfold at the time though.

Indeed!

 

[IrishDave]

Thanks for your comment, I realise that there might be far too many problems with such a course of action including those that you have stated...in fact, I was very surprised that they did this transfer in Ireland, and wondered at the time whether it was peculiar to Ireland and if it would even be considered in the UK.

It's been done in the UK before - about six months ago a friend of mine was on a Voyager from Birmingham to Edinburgh that was evacuated to a Pendo on the other line after the Voyager failed about 3 miles south of Lancaster. There's more detail in my post on the other thread, which I won't repeat here. But note that both the two Virgin trains and the Irish trains will have had sliding power-doors - I'm not sure there'd be the clearance to open one HST door when the trains are right next to each other, let alone two.

I have to agree with A-driver that making decisions at the time is much more difficult than looking back in hindsight. That doesn't mean we can't learn for the future, though. Maybe part of the problem was that the incident happened on a Sunday, where there's not as many staff around? Should we bring in more staff on a Sunday to help stop this kind of thing taking quite so long?

 

[A-driver]

Should we bring in more staff on a Sunday to help stop this kind of thing taking quite so long?

I'm all for having lots of staff being employed but even I would say no to that with no hesitation.

This isn't a regular occurrence by any stretch of the imagination. And there are managers on call for these kind of instances but paying staff to sit about I case there is a major incident is not a sensible idea really.

 

[KA4C]

I'm all for having lots of staff being employed but even I would say no to that with no hesitation.

This isn't a regular occurrence by any stretch of the imagination. And there are managers on call for these kind of instances but paying staff to sit about I case there is a major incident is not a sensible idea really.

And given the comments that we see on here concerning staff salaries, I'm sure that most posters would not want to see these "highly paid rail staff" sitting around for the rare event that they are actually needed

 

[Goatboy]

I think A driver's earlier long post says it all doesn't it ? Its called reality which isn't perfect unfortunately.

So what then, we all shrug and don't comment?

I think ChiefPlanners post in this very thread is the best post - here is a post from somebody with experience in this sort of thing and he explains how he dealt with these problems at another TOC. FGW obviously had no similar plans in place and it resulted in a farce. It is indefensible. 'These things happen' is entirely true but should not be true.

I think all those defending FGW or claiming that well, these things happen, should go back and read his post in this thread. I doubt there is a more informed post than one from a planner (or ex planner) at a TOC.

FGW have apologised and will compensate those affected. If you were stuck on a motorway in your car you wouldnt get anything .

If you were stuck on a motorway in your car you've not got a contract for transport from A to B, the relationship between passenger and TOC is totally different to the relationship between driver and traffic queue so this sort of comparison is irrelevent.

 

[KA4C]

And there are managers on call for these kind of instances

Aren't there just

 

[transmanche]

As I say, any idiot can be a critic after the event and suddenly everyone is an expert on what should have happened. It's very different dealing with events as they unfold at the time though.

True. But as you'll see from the video clip linked to from the Daily Mail article; even FGW staff were questioning the decision making and the inaccurate information being given to passengers whilst the incident was still ongoing.

 

[A-driver]

True. But as you'll see from the video clip linked to from the Daily Mail article; even FGW staff were questioning the decision making and the inaccurate information being given to passengers whilst the incident was still ongoing.

Well he was hardly likely to stand up infront of all those angry punters and tell them to sit down and shut up and that FGW were doing a great job was he?! If he didn't sympathise and agree then he would have been lynched!

 

[KA4C]

So what then, we all shrug and don't comment?

No, FGW will no doubt have an urgent review of what went on and review their procedures in light of that. There are a number on here who have dealt with such incidents in the field and realise just how quickly time can be lost when initial plans to deal with the incident go wrong, Trying to manage these incidents on the ground can be very hard work indeed and the biggest problem is often communication with control rooms

 

[transmanche]

Well he was hardly likely to stand up infront of all those angry punters and tell them to sit down and shut up and that FGW were doing a great job was he?! If he didn't sympathise and agree then he would have been lynched!

So you think he was lying?

 

[KA4C]

Well he was hardly likely to stand up infront of all those angry punters and tell them to sit down and shut up and that FGW were doing a great job was he?! If he didn't sympathise and agree then he would have been lynched!

It is what anyone would have done in that circumstance

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

I'm all for having lots of staff being employed but even I would say no to that with no hesitation.

This isn't a regular occurrence by any stretch of the imagination. And there are managers on call for these kind of instances but paying staff to sit about I case there is a major incident is not a sensible idea really.

I'm afraid that the days of having staff sitting around waiting for 'action' have gone, it's the same thing in the NHS... and many other organisations. Much of the current debate around 'zero-hours contracts' is about exactly this issue, no company will wish to have any member of staff on duty if they have not got a specific responsibility or task....as long as they can get away with it. Sometimes tho', it doesn't work out........

 

[4SRKT]

I'm very concerned about the idea that nobody should ever criticise something if they weren't actually involved themselves. It smacks rather too much of excusifying after a foul-up, and not dissimilar to Tony Blair 'justifying' the Iraq War and sweeping away all dissent with platitudes such as "when in power you sometimes have to make difficult decisions", as though that means it's OK if those decisions then turn out to be wrong.

 

[richw]

First Great Western's spokesman on Westcountry News has just said on TV that it was incompetence by the on duty staff for such an incident to take so long and cause such a delay. For future reference for revisiting on on-demand TV it appeared at approx 1804 on ITV Westcountry News.

Mod Note: The actual interviewer asked the FGW spokesman for his comment on a passengers tweet that the incident was caused by incompetence the spokesman replied that there had been serious failings.

 

[KA4C]

First Great Western's spokesman on Westcountry News has just said on TV that it was incompetence by the on duty staff for such an incident to take so long and cause such a delay. For future reference for revisiting on on-demand TV it appeared at approx 1804 on ITV Westcountry News.

Saw that, I think that those who worked bloody hard on that incident will be livid. don't know how they can have got to the bottom of what went wrong so quickly (in fact I know that they won't have)

I don't think that the word incompetence was used, not sure where you got that from

 

[transmanche]

First Great Western's spokesman on Westcountry News has just said on TV that it was incompetence by the on duty staff for such an incident to take so long and cause such a delay. For future reference for revisiting on on-demand TV it appeared at approx 1804 on ITV Westcountry News.

Here's a link to the report.

 

[CC 72100]

Saw that, I think that those who worked bloody hard on that incident will be livid. don't know how they can have got to the bottom of what went wrong so quickly (in fact I know that they won't have)

Indeed. I'm sure the TM and the off-duty staff member on the video on the DM website are feeling really valued by their employer at this moment in time. Next time may as well sit there and play cards, obviously running around trying your best isn't good enough. Mistakes were obviously made. But I don't think that the mistakes were made by the folks on the ground and on the train.

 

[KA4C]

Indeed. I'm sure the TM and the off-duty staff member on the video on the DM website are feeling really valued by their employer at this moment in time. Next time may as well sit there and play cards, obviously running around trying your best isn't good enough. Mistakes were obviously made. But I don't think that the mistakes were made by the folks on the ground and on the train.

FGW need to learn what went wrong and learn from that. They don't need to start knee-jerking

 

[CC 72100]

FGW need to learn what went wrong and learn from that. They don't need to start knee-jerking

Absolutely. I'm all for accountability, learning lessons and all that, but comments like this from that PR man reek of snap judgments made to make good PR, as people elsewhere are demanding blood. What better way to provide what people want than to scapegoat those on the ground before doing a proper investigation.

 

[KA4C]

Absolutely. I'm all for accountability, learning lessons and all that, but comments like this from that PR man reek of snap judgments made to make good PR, as people elsewhere are demanding blood. What better way to provide what people want than to scapegoat those on the ground before doing a proper investigation.

Isn't that what these people always do?

 

[A-driver]

So you think he was lying?

Dont be so silly, can you not have a sensible discussion without jumping to these wild accusations?!

Show me where I said he was 'lying' and ill continue to discuss this with you. Otherwise withdraw that stupid remark or stop commenting on my posts please.

 

[tsr]

First Great Western's spokesman on Westcountry News has just said on TV that it was incompetence by the on duty staff for such an incident to take so long and cause such a delay. For future reference for revisiting on on-demand TV it appeared at approx 1804 on ITV Westcountry News.

Not exactly "incompetence" - in fact I think he was actually trying to deflect that word so as not to be placing blame on anyone specific - he just admitted that things took too long and that it will keep the managers awake at night, so to speak - and so it should. I suppose there may have been incompetent actions somewhere in the chain of command - we don't know because I don't think any poster on this thread has had access to the full ongoing investigation (or else they have quite sensibly not publicly said they have access to it). Whatever happened, though, FGW and everyone else should admit that this delay was far in excess of a reasonable length.

 

[transmanche]

Dont be so silly, can you not have a sensible discussion without jumping to these wild accusations?!

It was a question, not a 'wild accusation'. Have a look at it again:

But as you'll see from the video clip linked to from the Daily Mail article; even FGW staff were questioning the decision making and the inaccurate information being given to passengers whilst the incident was still ongoing.

Well he was hardly likely to stand up infront of all those angry punters and tell them to sit down and shut up and that FGW were doing a great job was he?! If he didn't sympathise and agree then he would have been lynched!

So you think he was lying?

Show me where I said he was 'lying' and ill continue to discuss this with you.

You wrote that he only said what he did order to placate the passengers. The implication being that he didn't actually mean what he said. If you didn't mean that, perhaps you'd care to explain what you did mean by your comment.

 

[yorksrob]

It's been done in the UK before - about six months ago a friend of mine was on a Voyager from Birmingham to Edinburgh that was evacuated to a Pendo on the other line after the Voyager failed about 3 miles south of Lancaster. There's more detail in my post on the other thread, which I won't repeat here. But note that both the two Virgin trains and the Irish trains will have had sliding power-doors - I'm not sure there'd be the clearance to open one HST door when the trains are right next to each other, let alone two.

I have to agree with A-driver that making decisions at the time is much more difficult than looking back in hindsight. That doesn't mean we can't learn for the future, though. Maybe part of the problem was that the incident happened on a Sunday, where there's not as many staff around? Should we bring in more staff on a Sunday to help stop this kind of thing taking quite so long?

Technical Query:

If you were to pull up one HST next to another with a view to evacuating the passengers, wouldn‘t it be possible to walk them through via the guards van as I believe these have large sliding doors?

 

[A-driver]

It was a question, not a 'wild accusation'. Have a look at it again:

​

You wrote that he only said what he did order to placate the passengers. The implication being that he didn't actually mean what he said. If you didn't mean that, perhaps you'd care to explain what you did mean by your comment.

This has nothing to do with the topic being discussed and I'm fed up with arguing rubbish with you on these forums at the moment as you seem to enjoy taki quotes out of context to try and booster your own argument.

I'm happy to carry on providing factual information and reasons why stuff happens from my experience but am not having stupid childish debates with people like you who are basically out for an argument.

Grow up.

 

[bb21]

I don't think that the word incompetence was used, not sure where you got that from

Neither do I. I looked at the video provided by transmanche twice and the only thing I can see is that he mentioned "failures" rather than "incompetence". "Incompetence" was however used in the question.

Not sure it would be a good idea for management to blame staff when quite clearly whatever existing procedures were in place to deal with this incident was not good enough, and the blame for that lies fully and squarely with management.

 

[richw]

Not exactly "incompetence"

He certainly implied it and that is how the general public will see it. I see some unhappy staff/ unions coming up.

 

[AeroSpace]

Nobody has explicitly pointed this out yet:

Keeping the passengers on the train presented no risks to safety.
Evacuating the passengers would have presented some risk to safety.
Safety comes first on the railway.

Whilst keeping the passengers on the train remains safe, how can anyone justify an evacuation?

 

[DarloRich]

A Driver/Transmarche

Shall we suggest a Hansard approach to this problem.

A Driver merely misspoke himself a that moment. He, of course, meant to say the person from FGW was merely being economical with the truth whilst Transmarche, after a tiring and emotional debate suffered a slight aural distraction at an inopportune moment

 

[bb21]

Nobody has explicitly pointed this out yet:

Keeping the passengers on the train presented no risks to safety.
Evacuating the passengers would have presented some risk to safety.
Safety comes first on the railway.

Whilst keeping the passengers on the train remains safe, how can anyone justify an evacuation?

This has been pointed out by several people.

There are potential risks either way if taken to the extremes, but remaining onboard is much safer, and passengers getting off the train on their own initiatives is a big no-no. Selfish to the extreme without any good reason and several people have already explained why.

A Driver/Transmarche

Shall we suggest a Hansard approach to this problem.

A Driver merely misspoke himself a that moment. He, of course, meant to say the person from FGW was merely being economical with the truth whilst Transmarche, after a tiring and emotional debate suffered a slight aural distraction at an inopportune moment

I think a common phenomenon of focusing on the insignificant in the grand scheme of things resurfaced with that argument you referred to.

It's all part of conflict management, rather important in a situation like this one.