FGW train stranded at Pewsey

[The Ham]

The whole point of having emergancy plans is that they need to be able to cope with things going not according to plan. As such there should (as others have said about their experianses with other TOC's) be a set guide to state when and where each step should be taken. However doing simple things to cover for unforseen problems should be fairly standard.

For instance all fitters carry a crate of water bottles so if they can't fix it quicly there are at least some extra refreshments available for the passengers. Now I know that (for instance) 20 water bottles wouldn't go very far on a train of 500 people, but at least there would be 20 more bottles of water than there would have been. It may also be just enough to ensue that supplies don't run out (or if they fo at least not for very long) until more can get there.

With regards to the HST's doors not being able to open whilst alongside another train, you could get the rescue train to nearly alongside the failed unit, open two doors of one coach (manning those on the failed unit so no one other than a member of staff is in the vestiuble) move the two trains to along side each other (having moved the resue unit some 40m) so that the doors align. Then unload a number of people (proberbly about 3 or 4 coach loads) and remove them to a safe location. Then repeat, however as the train is less full it then maybe possible to do with 2 or even 3 pairs of doors to speed things up. Also the resuce unit could come with supplies to make it more bearable for those left on the failed unit.

With regards to the following trains and/or trains running the other way it could have been possible to have run a few of them the long way around whilst you undertook the unloading process.

 

[Tomnick]

I know I've pushed the (general, not specific to this incident!) possibility of evacuating onto another train, but I really thought we'd put the even less practical suggestion of walking 500 passengers to an access point (to do what with them?) to bed already!

 

[The Ham]

Not forgetting the amount of staff your going to need to supervise that walk and the time it would take to get there. Id have thought these staff members would have to be track safety trained too and on a Sunday evening these could be in short supply.

What do you do with people in wheelchairs or elderly people who cant walk long distances, also young children. You cant have these walking along the line unless its badly the last resort. Walking along ballast isnt easy if your wearing normal footwear too.

Also there may be some people (who know about the lack of retention tanks on the HST's) who may wish to stay on the train rather than go for a walk!

 

[1e10]

Many seem to be defending the actions of FGW here saying they have safety to consider when taking actions such as evacuating a train.

What reasons do they have for not putting supplies on another passing train and having it stop along side it to offload said supplies?

 

[starrymarkb]

Why's that then? Perhaps you're under a misconception that FGW would be liable to pay for new plane tickets (it wouldn't). Passengers who missed flights due to delayed public transport would probably be able to claim against their travel insurance, if they have it.

Indeed, and that is why it is such a good idea to have Travel Insurance. Most policies cover missed flights due to public transport disruption or traffic if in a private car providing you have left a reasonable amount of time (ie a Planned arrival at the airport at least two hours before check in closes) - National Express state on their tickets that you must allow a minimum of 3 hours before check in closes. Some airlines (I know Easyjet is one) also offer missed flight insurance (IIRC it's about £10pp) where they will get you on the next available flight if you miss your flight...

If you're not insured, well you'd be relying on the goodwill of the airline and FGW. Neither are obliged to offer any assistance in these circumstances.

 

[bb21]

I think Mitch in Notts was suggesting that it would have been quicker to walk to the next station than wait 6 hours. Are you seriously suggesting otherwise?

I know that at the time the staff managing the incident wouldn't have been able to accurately estimated the amount of time it was going to take before things we moving again. There should have been a point at which staff atleast started to get other provision inplace.

The difficulty is that no one anticipated that the whole incident would take 6 hours, so I can understand where A-driver is coming from. By the time the fitter declared that he could no longer fix the train, it may well have been 3 hours down the line, and evacuating 500 pax in an orderly manner and then walking them down the track may well take another 3 hours. That is not taking into account the fact that there is probably not enough staff supervising these passengers while they wander along the tracks.

 

[Whistler40145]

Why was 59202 able to tow the stricken power car back to Westbury, but wasn't able to drag the whole consist back to Westbury to detrain passengers?

 

[starrymarkb]

I'm assuming it was put on skates and towed back at 5mph. Not sure if you can tow while on wheel skates

 

[Starmill]

There were toilets onboard. The flush may have stopped working but there is still a private room with a sink if nothing else so anyone that desperate could still relieve themselves without problem.

Don't be so silly about urinating in the woodland. They haven't done anything wrong, no ones going to prosecute them for it and of course they peed in the bushes at the side-find me a train driver who has never had a wee out the cab door, in the cess, against a signal post or up against the side of their train. Not news or amything to get excited or even oass comment about-A real literal case of 'do bears s*it in the woods' there.

This comes up bamboozlingly often on here! I think it was you that gave us this account last time too, A-driver.

Suffice to say, it was news actually, though not for the reasons above.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10360283

Is it possible that your female colleagues might not be all to pleased about that though?

 

[martybabes]

Well, the time has come for me to have my two pence worth of opinion!

I have read 17 pages of well-intentioned suggestions for having a rescue undertaken, and the usual responses from those within the industry explaining how it is impossible, and that the best place for passengers is to remain in the stricken carriages which, inevitably, will be running out of food, drink, cool/warm air and, if they were ever in place and working, toilet facilities. The poor old driver and the guard (hereafter "train crew") will have spent a lot of their time trying to get some assistance from those in the chain of command above them, and will also be trying to placate anxious/inquisitive/angry passengers about the perceived lack of forward progress.

Presumably, some sort of message will have been sent by the train crew to HQ, to say that the train has broken down and is in need of a visit from a fitter. Now, at this point, I would hope that a few plans are beginning to form in the minds of those who are tasked with dealing with these things. If a fitter is being asked to attend, it is obvious that it will be some time before he is able to be on site, let alone be in a position to assess the problem and either deal with it or declare that it cannot be fixed. At the time the fitter is being summoned, preliminary enquiries must surely have been considered as to the availability of addressing the passengers' needs - maybe by the resupply of snacks and hot/cold drinks, and whether there are any passengers who are in need of medical assistance. The train crew are the ones on site who are (and indeed should be) in a position to assess this. HQ staff will, of course, know where the broken down train is situated, and the simple expedient of looking at a map will soon determine what physical features exist to encourage or hamper an evacuation as well as the placement and containment of the displaced passengers. A quick phone call to the local authority will establish what resources are available to accommodate up to 500 passengers. That is what local authorities do (and do well, as a look at any newspaper will tell you after any civil emergency has occurred requiring the relocation of lots of people at short notice).

Thinking of the fitter who is on-site, I cannot imagine that trains on the other line(s) are still passing at the maximum line speed, particularly as HQ will/should have alerted those who manage the line of the existence of a stranded train and the likelihood of there being risks associated therewith. Indeed it would not be impossible for a brief stop to be considered by a passing train in order to replenish basic stocks.

Assuming by now the fitter has decreed the repairs are beyond his means, HQ's preliminary enquiries as to the availability of buses, taxis, accommodation, snacks & drinks will begin to form the next phase in addressing the needs of passengers. HQ will/should also know by now as to the availability of a suitable train and crew to effect a connect-and-drag of the broken unit (with passengers) or a transfer of just the passengers. HQ must maintain regular contact with the train crew so that passengers are kept fully up-to-date with the progress of the situation, and are told, truthfully, what is happening, what is intended to happen and, to concentrate the mind and expedite matters, when it is expected to happen.

Clearly what has to be in place, and to have been practised by the use of desk-top exercises (which is what every other service seems to do on a regular basis), is a core of personnel with the skills and authority to put in place these actions. This core need not be sitting around each and every day waiting for something to happen but be available to act AS AND WHEN the situation demands. The situation may mean that normal rules and operating procedures have to be suspended for the short term. Command and Control of the entire situation is handled by this core of personnel who have absolute authority to act decisively.

As an occasional passenger, and also as someone who has been a Team Leader of an Emergency Response Team, I have, in the past 17 pages, seen a lot of useful comments, and a lot of tunnel vision prompting comments that appear to be negative in nature and symptomatic of a "can't do anything about it" culture. While I agree that **** happens, it's how you deal effectively with what gets thrown at you that matters, and all too often the can-do attitude gets lost in the culture of "health & safety" or "it's not really a problem, is it?"

While I think we all agree the situation suffered by the passengers is not really acceptable, the apparent failure or absence of a practised and effective emergency response team tasked with the role and authority to deal with all aspects of the emergency (and let us be in no doubt that, on a hot day, a full HST that has failed between stations is an emergency which could have had, though thankfully in this case didn't, serious medical or health implications) is not something we should take any credit for.

I expect, when the proper investigation is carried out, there will be some criticism of procedures and practices, but the point is that the industry needs to learn from them. I know there could well be hundreds of different situations that might arise, and you simply cannot have a proscribed procedure for each. But what you can have is a list of personnel who are immediately called (or taken off other duties) to staff up the first sitting of the emergency team. This team then considers, firstly, whether it is an emergency worthy of their input and, if so, considers a list of priority possible actions, and the timings for when these actions should be considered as to their applicability and possible effectiveness.

It would be reassuring to learn that some if not all of these suggestions are already in place. If they are not, why not.

 

[3141]

A superb post by martybabes. There needs to be a range of better-planned responses, because the way things turned out in this case is totally unacceptable.

 

[sidmouth]

Also totally agree with martybabes. Enough said.

 

[sheff1]

.. you do not start evacuating anyone until you know exactly what you are going to do with them to get them to their destination!

If that is the official line then I am afraid whoever signed that off does not have the required grasp of incident management.

 

[Blindtraveler]

the other thing that occurs to me, and0his will doubtless produce groans from some is that its v v lucky an HST Sat down instead of a 180, voyager or any bried of IEP. 4 sliding droplights per coach where as on current and future modern stock your rely on air con only and a 6hr delay would see many suffer more esp if the AC Failed. The toilets may also have been a greater issue?
↲im not here to slam the TOC, Its staff or its working practices and niether am I wanting to speculate or comment but I am meerly here to say the railways need to do better in future. 6 hours on the supposidly better new trains we are getting would, I am sure be much worse!↲

 

[ainsworth74]

Why was 59202 able to tow the stricken power car back to Westbury, but wasn't able to drag the whole consist back to Westbury to detrain passengers?

Because the rest of the set was capable of continuing to London. Surely that's better for the passengers than delaying them even further?

 

[Antman]

Rubbish. Out on the tracks is not the workplace. Same as a Gardaner can smoke in a garden. The workplace is the office, train, train cab, p-way van, portacabin etc.

Plus so what if they were smoking on railway property, they were working as hard as possible to get 500 stranded passengers moving. They aren't doing anyone any harm.

Somehow working as hard as possible and standing around smoking don't really go together.

It might have been better if they nipped off for a smoke one at a time, an irate passenger is not going to be impressed at the sight of staff.standing around smoking in the middle of an emergency, well I'm sure it was for many passengers.

 

[VP185]

If that is the official line then I am afraid whoever signed that off does not have the required grasp of incident management.

Why is that?

There are two types of train evacuation, emergency and a controlled evacuation.

A emergency evacuation is carried out when there is immediate risk to life eg. train fire.

A controlled evacuation only happens when, as 455driver said, only happens when you know how passengers will be moved to their destinations from the stricken train.
On a controlled evacuation passengers can be informed over the PA before the evacuation commences what will happen, where they need to go regards onward movement. This can commence once everything is in place and can be effectively managed.
Once you evacuate 500 people onto the tracks without a plan, you have 500 people milling around in all directions, some may invariable wonder off and you end up losing people. The biggest issue though is the fact you have lost the ability to communicate with everybody once they are on the tracks.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why was 59202 able to tow the stricken power car back to Westbury, but wasn't able to drag the whole consist back to Westbury to detrain passengers?

If 59202 dragged the whole set back to Westbury then the brakes on the whole HST would have had to be isolated. 400 tons of unbraked train obviously isn't safe!

 

[Rattle]

Seem to remember that Thomas's (was it?) train had leak in brake pipe and whilst the guard had some brown paper to cover the leak a posh passenger with long bootlaces was not prepared to let the guard have them to tie the brown paper over the leak. So no one was wearing long bootlaces on the HST?

 

[carriageline]

I'm sure FGW are holding all sorts of "post incident" meetings, trying to see where/why they went wrong.

Sitting on here, saying they could of done this and that, when you have the luxury of hindsight, and quite frankly, only the view as a enthusiast/passenger (let's be frank, you can tell who is rail staff, and who is pax in this thread), is different to being a member of "control", trying to deal with the incident in real time, with the information they had available to them.

Let's be honest, they didn't sit there for 6 hours waiting for something to happen. I'm sure as every hour ticked by, they was trying a different method, waiting for someone to ring back, waiting for something or other to happen (a fitter trying a few things, each taking an hour thinking that will fix it, waiting for line blockages) waiting for Certain things take time. I bet as each hour past, they also thought it was going to be over by the end of the hour.

As for evacuating, how will a handful of members of staff be able to watch and control 500 irate passengers? All it takes for one to disappear on his own, selfish little trip, and it make the situation a whole lot worse, and possible ruin a drivers and emergency service personnel day, keep 'em locked in a train, where the only damage they can cause is to themselves

 

[Antman]

I'm sure FGW are holding all sorts of "post incident" meetings, trying to see where/why they went wrong.

Sitting on here, saying they could of done this and that, when you have the luxury of hindsight, and quite frankly, only the view as a enthusiast/passenger (let's be frank, you can tell who is rail staff, and who is pax in this thread), is different to being a member of "control", trying to deal with the incident in real time, with the information they had available to them.

Let's be honest, they didn't sit there for 6 hours waiting for something to happen. I'm sure as every hour ticked by, they was trying a different method, waiting for someone to ring back, waiting for something or other to happen. Certain things take time. I bet as each hour past, they also thought it was going to be over by the end of the hour.

As for evacuating, how will a handful of members of staff be able to watch and control 500 irate passengers? All it takes for one to disappear on his own, selfish little trip, and it make the situation a whole lot worse, and possible ruin a drivers and emergency service personnel day, keep 'em locked in a train, where the only damage they can cause is to themselves

Whilst you make some valid points I don't think they'll cut much ice with the passengers

 

[sheff1]

Why is that?

There is no need to state at the outset exactly how people will be moved to their destinations and it is wrong to hold people in an unwelcoming (at least) environment until every last detail is in place.

One example - in a rural location such as this people could be told that they will be escorted to a safe and warm location (school/village hall/community centre) one/two miles away where refreshments will be provided. As has been mentioned Local Authorities etc have plans in place for evacuations to such places which can, and are, implemented pretty quickly. Less able bodied people will be advised to remain onboard (which will hopefully now be more comfortable) until transport can take them to the 'holding location'.

People can also be told that, at the same time, arrangements are being made to obtain transport to take them from the holding location to, say, major town xxx where onward rail travel (or whatever) will be available.

Once off the train and away from the tracks those who wish, and have the ability to do so, can make their own arrangements for onward travel.

There is, of course, no question of evacuating 500 people with no plan.

Naturally there will be different arrangements in different locations but the bottom line is that there can be a phased journey towards peoples final destination. There is no need to wait until the full details are finalised before making the first move, all that is needed is that each step is progressing people to a more favourable position.

 

[Temple Meads]

Whilst you make some valid your closing comment beggars belief........we are talking about paying customers not prisoners

It's for their own good though...

Ok, that probably sounds rather high handed, but the idea of making people walk over a wet railway to wait for onward road transport that might take ages to arrive, probably without refreshments or a comfortable place to sit down seems a lot worse than waiting for a couple more hours.

Seriously, as long as I had fresh air (which is fine on a HST), then I'd choose to stay on the train every time.

 

[carriageline]

Of course they wouldn't be happy with that response, 6 hours is a long time to be sat in one place, delayed like that. If you are not aware of the dangers, and the technicalities of what is happening, then people don't really understand and start to presume.

Like I said, I bet them 6 hours went quickly (not in a literal sense), as the fitter for example, could be constantly saying "30 more minutes, this should fix it", every hour, and all of a sudden all your options are exhausted, and your now well into a 6 hour delay.

At what point do you dispatch a train laden with goods/start evacuation/start moving people to "land", when, from the information you have received, the broken down train could be on the move again in half an hour.

Difficult one to call, and I can see why people sit and say "6 hours is appalling, why did it take so long", but I can see perfectly clearly why it COULD take so long. Does that make it any more right or wrong, of course not, and I know I would not enjoy being in that situation.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

In a rural location such as this people could be told that they will be escorted to a safe and warm location (school/village hall/community centre) one/two miles away where refreshments will be provided.

Does Pewsey have such available facilities that could cater for the total number of passengers on this train ?

 

[Eagle]

Just thought I should clarify something. I don't know why people keep saying it was a hot day. For the period the train was stuck it was overcast, intermittently drizzly, and temperatures were no higher than 18 or 19. Hardly the sweltering conditions we had in July.

So stop bringing the weather argument into this.

 

[Temple Meads]

Just thought I should clarify something. I don't know why people keep saying it was a hot day. For the period the train was stuck it was overcast, intermittently drizzly, and temperatures were no higher than 18 or 19. Hardly the sweltering conditions we had in July.

So stop bringing the weather argument into this.

Indeed, the only pertinent weather issue here is the wet conditions making a decamp a lot riskier.

 

[A-driver]

Somehow working as hard as possible and standing around smoking don't really go together.

It might have been better if they nipped off for a smoke one at a time, an irate passenger is not going to be impressed at the sight of staff.standing around smoking in the middle of an emergency, well I'm sure it was for many passengers.

Don't be so stupid! We are only human and if anyone genuinely thinks that the crew will just spend six hours sunbathing, chatting and smoking then let them think it-I wouldn't waste my breath trying to explain things to those kinds if people. Most will know they were working and appreciate a cigarette and wee break in 6 hours isn't bad going (most office workers take far more fag and loo breaks!)

I'm bored of this thread, as I thought, since I went to bed none if the posts have made any sense and have just been stupid and very ill informed rants.

The staff on here have explained the issues and no one has listened as you all think you know best. Perhaps you should all apply for rail jobs as you seem to believe you are all experts and know what needs to be done. Then when this happens to you you will find yourself in the firing line.

Let those of us who know what we are on about withdraw and it can become another railUK spotters fantasy thread. The rail industry didn't want to see these situations any more than you lot do but do you really think that the quite basic ideas being spouted on here haven't been considered, tried and tested already? And proved not to work so been dropped in favour of others?

Quite simply there are people on here who have issues with being told what to do. They think that paying for a train ticket entitles them to make decisions during disruption and that a big problem and very selfish. 500 people could be stranded on a train whilst thousands more continue their journeys. If those 500 selfish people decide they are above waiting and evacuate the train then all the other trains have to be stopped stranding possibly thousands more whilst the police etc get people off the tracks.

Conditions were not that bad onboard this train-they had basic toilet facilities for emergencies, food & water for a time (no one died or went to hospital so there was obviously enough) and there was light and aircon.

I'm just going to sit back and enjoy having a good laugh at the rest of the posts on here for now.

 

[pitdiver]

Don't be so stupid! We are only human and if anyone genuinely thinks that the crew will just spend six hours sunbathing, chatting and smoking then let them think it-I wouldn't waste my breath trying to explain things to those kinds if people. Most will know they were working and appreciate a cigarette and wee break in 6 hours isn't bad going (most office workers take far more fag and loo breaks!)

I'm bored of this thread, as I thought, since I went to bed none if the posts have made any sense and have just been stupid and very ill informed rants.

The staff on here have explained the issues and no one has listened as you all think you know best. Perhaps you should all apply for rail jobs as you seem to believe you are all experts and know what needs to be done. Then when this happens to you you will find yourself in the firing line.

Let those of us who know what we are on about withdraw and it can become another railUK spotters fantasy thread. The rail industry didn't want to see these situations any more than you lot do but do you really think that the quite basic ideas being spouted on here haven't been considered, tried and tested already? And proved not to work so been dropped in favour of others?

Quite simply there are people on here who have issues with being told what to do. They think that paying for a train ticket entitles them to make decisions during disruption and that a big problem and very selfish. 500 people could be stranded on a train whilst thousands more continue their journeys. If those 500 selfish people decide they are above waiting and evacuate the train then all the other trains have to be stopped stranding possibly thousands more whilst the police etc get people off the tracks.

Conditions were not that bad onboard this train-they had basic toilet facilities for emergencies, food & water for a time (no one died or went to hospital so there was obviously enough) and there was light and aircon.

I'm just going to sit back and enjoy having a good laugh at the rest of the posts on here for now.

I only worked as a Station Supervisor on LUL for a total of 16 years but I fully agree with the comments above.

 

[The Ham]

Seem to remember that Thomas's (was it?) train had leak in brake pipe and whilst the guard had some brown paper to cover the leak a posh passenger with long bootlaces was not prepared to let the guard have them to tie the brown paper over the leak. So no one was wearing long bootlaces on the HST?

As well as the water I suggested above, maybe all fitters should be issued with a Thomas break fixing kit.

 

[island]

Can someone please tell me what would have been wrong with detaching the power car as soon as the fitter arrived and sending the rest of the set on its way, then removing it as soon as the locomotive became available?