Financial Difficulty at Northern?

[Aivilo]

I can't say to much on here but the deal they wanted that included Sundays and how they were formatted was simply to big.

If they want Sundays in just sort that out by itself instead of trying to push a million things through at once.

 

[Carlisle]

Most businesses, unlike Northern, aren't contracted to the government, or subsidised to the tune of 100% of their revenue. Their shut-down point is not going to be the same as in a free market.

Absolutely, aren’t franchise’s effectively underwriter by government and financial difficulties usually renegotiated quietly or an OLR appoiinted so a failure like Thomas Cook or Monarch is impossible .?

 

[muz379]

There must be dozens of ways of achieving a quick fix for instance surely it would be more efficient to do the driver training [ and new unit mileage accumulation for that matter ] during the night ]

Not sure what difference this would make , majority of mileage accumulation trips happened over routes with either infrequent Northern service or that Northern didnt even operate a service on anyway . Many of them also took minimum amounts of train-crew cover away from depots . The bigger issue is training with every driver that is to be competent on new traction having to be released for several days to learn about it .

As for doing the driver training at night , again I dont know what difference this would make , if a driver is released from their booked train working for the week to attend a training course for the new units it makes no difference if that training happens in the day or during the night . In fact doing it at night could be detrimental as they would have to have a days clear rest before returning to their normal booked work . Whereas they could be marked 07:00-15:00 Training everyday , and after their last day of training return to booked work the next day as early as 03:00 .

My opinion is that over complicating the diagrams cant be helping for instance when the Oxenholme to Windermere train just tootled up and down that line they could have stuck a new lad on it for the day and let him build his hours and confidence up.

I share that opinion with you that over complicated diagrams dont help matters . Trains running through multiple areas which regularly experience congestion and requiring multiple crew changes mean that if a diagram at one depot is covered a service that actually runs over a large number of miles could be cancelled , although I dont know what you mean by "stuck a new lad on it for the day" , A driver cannot drive a train unsupervised on the mainline (or anywhere else for that matter) until they are competent on rules , the route and the traction .

And a story i.ve heard more than once is that drivers take holidays [ or sick days ] thru the week and then work overtime at the weekend when it more lucrative. Surely they could offer an enhanced overtime rate at the weekend but only paid if you have your 40 hours in thru the week.

I am not suer who has told you this story , but that wont be the case at Northern , drivers at Northern are on the same rest day rate for Monday through to Saturday , with different agreements applying to Sunday . A weekday or Saturday rest day worked is more lucrative than a Sunday .

Although Generally Saturday always sees a smaller number of volunteers for Rest day working in both Drivers and Guards grade . I think that will be fairly standard railway wide , not many people want to work any-more Saturdays than they already do , particularly if you have a family and children who you would like to spend time with . Much more convenient to collect some overtime pay on a Tuesday morning when the "husband/wife & Kids" are in work/school

It seems to me that the problems all go back to decade-old agreements and the way to achieve a long term solution is to offer the staff a new deal they carnt refuse in return for giving up all the outdated weekend agreements and admit that they work for a 7 day a week railway.

But that's not going to happen until stupid short franchises awarded to companies like Arriva are gone.

The problem is , a deal that meets the aspirations of the staff and also provides sufficient contractual cover for a 7 day service is not cheap , both in terms of what it will cost in salary increases but also that it will mean a further uplift to driver compliments at most depots . Nobody wants to pay for it , staff dont want to pay for it out of a degradation in pay and conditions , the operators wont and cannot afford to pay for it due to the way franchise agreements are formed , and the DFT wont pay for it . If TFN/Andy Burnham /
Steve Rotheram and other metro mayors want to really solve many of the issues maybe they could find a formula to fund such agreements .

Not sure what the length of franchise will have to do with it . Arriva are only attempting to implement the terms of a franchise that the DFT approved and whilst I am not particularly defending them ,many of these issues would be occurring regardless of the name above the door . Personally I think that the issue lies firmly at the DFT and the way it has assessed multiple franchise bids .

 

[SteveM70]

What there is a shortage of, is competence.

Driver, management, or both?

 

[Aivilo]

Drivers don't come in to it.

 

[Tractor37]

drivers at Northern are on the same rest day rate for Monday through to Saturday , with different agreements applying to Sunday.

Ah the great West/East divide. Us drivers on the East of the Pennines get the same rate for a rest day whether it’s a Tuesday in July or a Sunday in December.

 

[Mike395]

Following today's developments, we've locked this thread to avoid any duplication. Please continue any discussion regarding Northern's financial situation at https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/northern-rail-could-be-re-nationalised.193656/