Finsbury Park to Harrow-on-the-Hill

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yorkie

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A customer recently did a journey from Finsbury Park to Harrow-on-the-Hill, they were issued with a ticket from Finsbury Park to Zone U2345 London routed +Any Permitted.

I believe that the ticket they were issued with is valid for a cross-London transfer, as it was routed +Any Permitted with the cross-London marker, however LU staff at King's Cross claimed it was not valid via any Zone 1 station. I believe this to be incorrect. Can anyone offer any explanation why LU staff would make this claim, and can someone with detailed knowledge of TfL/LU confirm if the ticket is indeed valid via Zone 1?

The customer was denied access through the ticket barrier on exit at King's Cross St Pancras LU station, while trying to exit the LU station to enter King's Cross NR station.
 
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yorkie

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Yep, I will scan it in this afternoon (as I was handed the ticket at a forum meet last week).
 

Mojo

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Sounds like it was issued incorrectly. A ticket to 0065 is the same price.

The Oyster PAYG fare avoiding Zone 1 shows the same as it does on Avantix with this ticket as it does in the TfL Single fare finder, it is just the cash fare that is the same. It is possible to travel via the NLL for less on Oyster only.

You say they were trying to exit Kings + LU station, was this on the return journey?
 

yorkie

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ok, got it :)

It was £2.50 rather than £10 as they have a PRIV discount card.

They had no issues on the outward journey, it was the return journey where they had a problem.

They were forced to pay an additional £4 to exit at King's Cross St Pancras.
 

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raildude

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ok, got it :)

It was £2.50 rather than £10 as they have a PRIV discount card.

They had no issues on the outward journey, it was the return journey where they had a problem.

They were forced to pay an additional £4 to exit at King's Cross St Pancras.
Hi

A ticket to Zone 123456 is the same price. The person didn't buy the ticket at Finsbury Park so the ticket office was probably unfamiliar
 

Mojo

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Hi

A ticket to Zone 123456 is the same price. The person didn't buy the ticket at Finsbury Park so the ticket office was probably unfamiliar
I agree. Looks like the ticket office at Leeds issued it incorrectly, should have been to 0065.
 

yorkie

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Should they not have been 'charged' a £0 excess then instead of being asked to pay an extra £4?
 

raildude

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Should they not have been 'charged' a £0 excess then instead of being asked to pay an extra £4?
Not too sure about Excess fares but a new poster is up in the mess room about Excess fares dated 19/10/2011 saying

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage requires a customer to buy or validate a pre-purchased ticket for their journey or pay any excess fare before boarding the train. If they do not, they are liable to be charged the full Anytime Single or Return fare for the journey being made. They will not receive Railcard or other discounts to which they would otherwise have been eligible.

and a link to "The Manual" but I don't have a password (not revenue dept). --- It logs on automatically I guess you don't need a password any more.... here you go :D

Revenue Protection and the National Rail Conditions of Carriage

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage outlines the conditions upon which tickets are issued. These conditions form part of a contract between a customer and the Train Companies. The Excess Fare instructions enable the original contract to be changed upon payment of the appropriate excess fare.

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage requires a customer (*) to buy or validate a pre-purchased ticket for their journey or pay any excess fare before boarding the train. If they do not, they are liable to be charged the full Anytime Single or Return fare for the journey being made. They will not receive Railcard or other discounts to which they would otherwise have been eligible.

(*) Up to two children under 5 years of age may accompany a fare-paying customer free of charge. Children aged between 5 years and 15 years inclusive are charged at the child rate.

However, if the Train Companies did not provide the customer with the opportunity to buy or validate a ticket or pay the excess fare before boarding the train, then the customer is entitled to the same range of fares and discounts that would have been available at a ticket office.

The Train Companies provide an opportunity to buy or validate tickets before boarding a train when:

there is a ticket office which is staffed and open and sells the full range of tickets;
or, there are ticket machines in working order which offer tickets for the journey being made;
or, there are ticket validating machines in working order.
Neither a queue at a ticket office nor the customer's late arrival at the station (unless a Train Company is clearly at fault) is a valid reason for a customer to board a train without having bought a ticket or paid any excess fares:

However, use your discretion when dealing with elderly or disabled customers. They may have been unable to climb steps to the ticket office or may have gained access to the platforms without passing the ticket office.

If a customer objects to paying the full Single or Return fare, tell them to write to your Customer Service Manager, but always charge the full Single or Return fare.

Customers who:

join at an unstaffed station on ‘pay train’ routes;
travel by an advertised connecting coach service;
begin their journey at a staffed station which is unable to issue a ticket for their throughout journey;
and who:

produce the ticket issued on the ‘pay train’, the connecting coach or the ticket office where they started their journey
- can buy the full range of available fares or pay excess, on the train, and receive any discounts to which they are entitled.
 

Mojo

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The National Rail Conditions of Carriage requires a customer to buy or validate a pre-purchased ticket for their journey or pay any excess fare before boarding the train. If they do not, they are liable to be charged the full Anytime Single or Return fare for the journey being made. They will not receive Railcard or other discounts to which they would otherwise have been eligible.
Neither the National Rail Conditions of Carriage nor the contents on 'The Manual' apply to London Underground.

However the customer is trying to excess a fare after having started their journey and already having travelled overdistance; such a procedure would not be possible on National Rail, so not sure it is permitted on London Underground either.
 

barrykas

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Sounds like a combination of FasTIS trying to be helpful and staff training (though tbh, I wouldn't generally expect staff 185 miles away to know the ins and outs of London zonal ticketing).

Finsbury Park to Zone U2345 is a perfectly valid ticket between Finsbury Park and Harrow...providing you change to the North London Line at Highbury, Jubilee at West Hampstead and Met at Wembley Park. ;)

As has been pointed out, the correct ticket to issue for such a journey would be Finsbury Park to Zone U1245 provided the passenger in question had Safeguarded PRIV status. If they're a TOC New Entrant, it'd have to be an undiscounted ticket.

Cheers,

Barry
 

Mojo

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Finsbury Park to Zone U2345 is a perfectly valid ticket between Finsbury Park and Harrow...providing you change to the North London Line at Highbury, Jubilee at West Hampstead and Met at Wembley Park. ;)
I believe an interchange at Finchley Road/Frognal is acceptable too; a longer walk but no need to change between Jubilee and Met at Wembley.
 

Indigo2

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Why does the ticket have a maltese cross on it though? It isn't present in the fares database (well not in NFM09 anyway) and it would seem to be degrading the meaning of the little '+'; as I understand it it is meant to indicate that tickets are valid for a cross-London underground journey when the origin and destination are both national rail stations. But the fact the the destination is a "U-zone" should be all that is required to indicate the ticket is valid on LU.

And I don't know if this is mentioned anywhere else, but I got a ticket printed on some interesting new stock from the booking office at Oxford when I was in England last week. On the back (at the bottom, under the magnetic stripe) it says

Issued subject to National Rail Conditions of Carriage - see www.nationalrail.co.uk/nrcoc
'+' denotes ticket is valid for one journey across London by Underground/DLR services if required - for details see www.nationalrail.co.uk/crossinglondon. Information also available from staffed stations.

Does this maybe go along with adding "VIA" to route restrictions in ATOC's little attempt to make the information on tickets more comprehensible by passengers?

The codes underneath that are:
RSP No. 9599 4MAG 1211 9 8 7 6 5 4 3 2 1
 

MikeWh

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I believe an interchange at Finchley Road/Frognal is acceptable too; a longer walk but no need to change between Jubilee and Met at Wembley.
It certainly is if using Oyster PAYG.
 

Indigo2

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Some gems on that "Crossing London" page too:

ATOC Guide to Crossing London said:
Tickets issued for travel to/from London usually show 'London Terminals' as the destination/origin rather than naming a specific station. This is because the ticket is valid to more than one London Terminal station provided it’s on any reasonable line of route. Tickets can only be used on National Rail services. For example, a ticket from Brighton to London Terminals is valid to Victoria, Waterloo (changing at Clapham Junction), London Bridge, Blackfriars and City Thameslink or Charing Cross Waterloo East or Cannon Street (changing at London Bridge). It would not be valid to, for example, London Euston or Paddington as this would not be on the line of route and would involve crossing London using another mode of transport.
Are ATOC trying to do away with the routeing guide? Not one mention of it on that page!
 

raildude

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Sounds like a combination of FasTIS trying to be helpful and staff training (though tbh, I wouldn't generally expect staff 185 miles away to know the ins and outs of London zonal ticketing).

Finsbury Park to Zone U2345 is a perfectly valid ticket between Finsbury Park and Harrow...providing you change to the North London Line at Highbury, Jubilee at West Hampstead and Met at Wembley Park. ;)

As has been pointed out, the correct ticket to issue for such a journey would be Finsbury Park to Zone U1245 provided the passenger in question had Safeguarded PRIV status. If they're a TOC New Entrant, it'd have to be an undiscounted ticket.

Cheers,

Barry
New Entrants can also buy the ticket as far as I know... never had a problem getting a Nantwich-London U1 priv return.
 
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LexyBoy

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Not too sure about Excess fares but a new poster is up in the mess room about Excess fares dated 19/10/2011 saying

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage requires a customer to buy or validate a pre-purchased ticket for their journey or pay any excess fare before boarding the train. If they do not, they are liable to be charged the full Anytime Single or Return fare for the journey being made. They will not receive Railcard or other discounts to which they would otherwise have been eligible.
Not unless the NRCOC has changed very recently. Change of route and time restrictions are most definitely not required to be paid before travel.

Overdistance should be, but I'd question the Manual's implication that a the presence of a ticket machine means the customer must buy a new ticket for the full journey.

 

raildude

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Not unless the NRCOC has changed very recently. Change of route and time restrictions are most definitely not required to be paid before travel.

Overdistance should be, but I'd question the Manual's implication that a the presence of a ticket machine means the customer must buy a new ticket for the full journey.

Our conductors only do what the instructions say to do! Charge the full single or return if able to get a ticket or excess before boarding
 

yorkie

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Not too sure about Excess fares but a new poster is up in the mess room about Excess fares dated 19/10/2011 saying

The National Rail Conditions of Carriage requires a customer to buy or validate a pre-purchased ticket for their journey or pay any excess fare before boarding the train. If they do not, they are liable to be charged the full Anytime Single or Return fare for the journey being made. They will not receive Railcard or other discounts to which they would otherwise have been eligible.
That applies for some types of excess fares, but not others.

To find out what applies, where there was opportunity to buy before boarding, look under that section. You will see that some excess fares are not to the Anytime ("full") fare and are to the appropriate fare, and do allow discounts.

What you say is correct for over-distance excess fares, but I would see this as a change of route, which has quite different rules! At the end of the day the customer was on a permitted route for the through journey from origin to destination, therefore it should be treated as a change of route excess, for which the excess is £0.00 irrespective of whether there was opportunity to buy before boarding or not.
 

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It isn't a change of route; they were holding a ticket from Finsbury Park to Zone U2-5, the customer travelled further than permitted. In any case; the excess fares rules do not apply to London Underground.
 

yorkie

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They were on a permitted route, on an Any Permitted ticket, with a cross-London transfer. They did not travel beyond either their origin or destination.

Yes, there is another route available, but that should really be routed "Not London" or something!

This looks like a bit of a scam to me!

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/crossing_london.html

"If your journey involves travelling via, or across London to connect with another National Rail service, your ticket should include the cost of transfer on Tube, Docklands Light Railway or First Capital Connect (Thameslink Route) services between the relevant main London stations."
 

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"If your journey involves travelling via, or across London to connect with another National Rail service, your ticket should include the cost of transfer on Tube, Docklands Light Railway or First Capital Connect (Thameslink Route) services between the relevant main London stations."
But is this a case of cross London transfer between two NR services, or just NR + LU? And does this make any difference?
 

yorkie

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Well, I suppose the person at the ticket barriers could ask "Did you take National Rail from Harrow to Marylebone?" and if the person said "no" they could aruge that the text quoted does not apply, and if they answered yes then I don't see how they could argue that it does not apply.

The training given to LU station staff is incredibly basic, but generally it appears that as long as you have the cross London + sign, you will not normally experience problems. (and if you don't have the + sign, then expect to be denied to be let through, even if it is valid).

I understand LU get a significant sum of money each year to accept cross-London transfers. That amount should be reduced if the amount of hassle that some LU staff give to some customers is not reduced. Some LU staff seem to want to put people off using public transport.
 

bb21

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That applies for some types of excess fares, but not others.

To find out what applies, where there was opportunity to buy before boarding, look under that section. You will see that some excess fares are not to the Anytime ("full") fare and are to the appropriate fare, and do allow discounts.

What you say is correct for over-distance excess fares, but I would see this as a change of route, which has quite different rules! At the end of the day the customer was on a permitted route for the through journey from origin to destination, therefore it should be treated as a change of route excess, for which the excess is £0.00 irrespective of whether there was opportunity to buy before boarding or not.
It isn't a change of route; they were holding a ticket from Finsbury Park to Zone U2-5, the customer travelled further than permitted. In any case; the excess fares rules do not apply to London Underground.
Does this not depend on how this ticket is interpreted? I see it as a ticket from FPK to a station in Zone 5, eg. Harrow & Wealdstone or Rayners Lane Und. The passenger has not travelled beyond the destination on the ticket so it is not over-distance. The passenger has merely taken a different route to that permitted by the ticket and the route taken is also a permitted route on some other ticket which makes it a change-of-route.

Another interpretation is that U1245 and U2345 refer to different destinations which meant that the passenger requires a brand new ticket from Zone 5, ie. £5 cash fare. Can U1245 and U2345 really be argued to represent different destinations when the ultimate destination for the passenger is the same station in Zone 5? I'm not sure.
 

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This ticket is a return fare from Finsbury Park allowing travel to anywhere in Zone 2-5 and this should be clear from the destination on the ticket, as the number '1' is not included.

Whilst it seems those responsible for setting the routes have not applied the marker this consistently (example Birmingham to U1 whereas Aylesbury to U1 does not), the + does not necessarily indicate a Cross-London transfer is permitted. The + on the ticket could refer to the fact that it is valid on London Underground Finsbury Park to Highbury/Islington.
 

barrykas

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New Entrants can also buy the ticket as far as I know... never had a problem getting a Nantwich-London U1 priv return.
Just because you've never had a problem getting it doesn't make it valid. ;) Hence Condition 6 on this year's TOCNE card. The exception mentioned there being for things like Wembley Stadium to Lewisham, where a cross-London transfer is included.

Going back to the OP for a minute, I've just put Finsbury Park to Harrow in FasTIS and it intially offered me Zone U12 to Harrow-on-the-Hill at £8.50 PRIV. Bringing up the full list of fares adds Finsbury Park to U1256 (both Any Permitted and via LU/DLR) and Finsbury Park to U1245 (via LU/DLR) amongst others.

Cheers,

Barry
 

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It seems to me to determine which one of these zonal fares is appropriate, you need to look at a London Underground map and check which zones the proposed route to the destination passes through. Is that correct? As there is no routeing guide for LU I don't think it can be worked out automatically by the TIS?
 

barrykas

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It seems to me to determine which one of these zonal fares is appropriate, you need to look at a London Underground map and check which zones the proposed route to the destination passes through. Is that correct? As there is no routeing guide for LU I don't think it can be worked out automatically by the TIS?
That's correct, though the TfL Journey Planner displays what zones a given journey passes through, which comes in handy at times.

Cheers,

Barry
 

Indigo2

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Thanks; that's really helpful and interesting to know. In my spare time I'm working on a software library to do fares queries and one of the areas I was getting stuck with was determining which zonal fares to offer for a journey from a NR station to a LU station. I did think at first that to offer the one that passes through the least zones would be a good rule of thumb. E.g. for a journey from Reading to Notting Hill Gate you'd only offer the Zone U1 fare. It sounds like this is what FasTIS does by default.

But that approach is only fool proof if you are changing to LU at a central London terminal and thus always starting the LU portion of the journey in Zone 1. You could also get from Reading to Notting Hill Gate by changing at Ealing Broadway to the central line and using a ticket to Zone U123 routed "Ealing Common/West Acton". I can't work out a foolproof way to automatically show only appropriate zonal fares, so I think showing them all is the only real option.

It appears to me that this is one aspect of the fares database that has completely escaped any attempts to integrate it with journey planning engines and still seems to be stuck in the manual days of the 1980s.
 

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You could also get from Reading to Notting Hill Gate by changing at Ealing Broadway to the central line and using a ticket to Zone U123 routed "Ealing Common/West Acton".
Notting Hill Gate is dual zoned, so would Zone U23 be appropriate/available?
 
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