First Aberdeen

[Jordan Adam]

All these bendys need scrapped! Aberdeens 1 and 2s are seemingly busy routes in conjunction with Aberdeen being the birth place of first yet they indulged in not giving residents quality new vehicles, why?

Take note First, these would do.....

No they don't, stop being daft. The bendies are good reliable motors with a couple more years left in them. They had issues in early years but they are solid units now. Your little rant seems rather pointless to be honest as the bendies are still tidy inside thanks to a refurb less than 3 years ago, and as i say they have a few more years left. Not to mention the capacity on the Citaro is significantly lower.

On the note of new vehicles, a Hydrogen powered Wright Streetdeck arrived at the depot today for a 2 week trial.

 

[GusB]

In a parallel universe (one where GRT and Badgerline didn't merge), perhaps there would be Citaros running around Aberdeen. If they had continued to purchase the O405, the Citaro would have been the logical successor.

 

[Jordan Adam]

In a parallel universe (one where GRT and Badgerline didn't merge), perhaps there would be Citaros running around Aberdeen. If they had continued to purchase the O405, the Citaro would have been the logical successor.

Perhaps. Although if the merge never happened then there's high chance the Aberdeen fleet would have a higher artic percentage as management at the time were very much against deckers, hence why for an almost 20 year period Aberdeen only got 6 new deckers. Certainly around 2004/5 just before we got our current B7LA fleet Lockhead wanted to try a FTR route linking up the university sites in Aberdeen.

The issue the Citaro brings is their capacity, they can only take 139 passengers, vs over 160 in the B7LAs. Not to mention the B7LAs are cheaper to run and less flammable.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Perhaps. Although if the merge never happened then there's high chance the Aberdeen fleet would have a higher artic percentage as management at the time were very much against deckers, hence why for an almost 20 year period Aberdeen only got 6 new deckers. Certainly around 2004/5 just before we got our current B7LA fleet Lockhead wanted to try a FTR route linking up the university sites in Aberdeen.

The issue the Citaro brings is their capacity, they can only take 139 passengers, vs over 160 in the B7LAs. Not to mention the B7LAs are cheaper to run and less flammable.

There is a common misconception that older euro3 and 4 buses were better on fuel, that indeed is a mistake, modern high pressure common rail diesel engines have a superior combustion process leading to improved fuel efficiency not to mention improvements with modern torque convertor gearboxes now have lock-up clutches, and as I recall when B7LAs were first introduced they had the nickname “chariots of Fire”! Even though im a bus driver Im more inclined to side with passengers rather than enthusiast, when it comes to refurbishments, refurbishing a bus with the same interior feel with the only thing being the seats covered in leather is not what passengers want, its new buses that aspires bus usage! This is exactly where first are failing across the country, its just fact!

Gemini/streetdeck are only decent when fitted with Volvo chassis! The daimler engined streetdeck with micro-hybrid and the HEV technology would likely beat it for fuel consumtion though!

Mercedes do sell 19.7 or 21m CapaCity quad-axle version of the citaro, most likely First’s jaw would drop at the cost of those!

 

[GusB]

I notice that there has been another thread created about First in Scotland, and I'm somewhat conflicted as to where I should post!

refurbishing a bus with the same interior feel with the only thing being the seats covered in leather is not what passengers want, its new buses that aspires bus usage!

This was what was happening in Aberdeen before the creation of FirstBus (as it was known then). When the Mercs came along with their "Gold Service" and "GRT Advance" branding, the new buses were a breath of fresh air compared to the Atlanteans that still made up a large proportion of the fleet at the time. It would be unfair to say that the older buses were grotty, because they seemed fairly well maintained, and Grampian did still have a fairly standardised fleet, but "oooh... shiny!" The visibility of the small cleaners' vans carrying the Gold Service branding also gave the impression that this was an operator trying to offer a higher-quality product.

That all seemed to go out of the window when First was created. There were a few new deliveries in the form of the Wright-bodied Scanias, and a few Pointer-bodied Darts, but the feeling of quality had gone.

 

[Jordan Adam]

There is a common misconception that older euro3 and 4 buses were better on fuel, that indeed is a mistake, modern high pressure common rail diesel engines have a superior combustion process leading to improved fuel efficiency not to mention improvements with modern torque convertor gearboxes now have lock-up clutches, and as I recall when B7LAs were first introduced they had the nickname “chariots of Fire”! Even though im a bus driver Im more inclined to side with passengers rather than enthusiast, when it comes to refurbishments, refurbishing a bus with the same interior feel with the only thing being the seats covered in leather is not what passengers want, its new buses that aspires bus usage! This is exactly where first are failing across the country, its just fact!

Gemini/streetdeck are only decent when fitted with Volvo chassis! The daimler engined streetdeck with micro-hybrid and the HEV technology would likely beat it for fuel consumtion though!

Mercedes do sell 19.7 or 21m CapaCity quad-axle version of the citaro, most likely First’s jaw would drop at the cost of those!

Only 2 B7LAs have actually caught fire though, both from an early Euro 2 batch so that nickname is rather daft. The interiors on the buses are tidy and that's what matters. Passengers don't really care what the interior is like so long as it's tidy and presentable. (which they are).

If you read my comments properly you'll see it's a Hydrogen powered Streetdeck....

The 21M Capacity would be illegal in the UK and the 19.7M model would probably be too big to fit round most of the route anyway.

I notice that there has been another thread created about First in Scotland, and I'm somewhat conflicted as to where I should post!


This was what was happening in Aberdeen before the creation of FirstBus (as it was known then). When the Mercs came along with their "Gold Service" and "GRT Advance" branding, the new buses were a breath of fresh air compared to the Atlanteans that still made up a large proportion of the fleet at the time. It would be unfair to say that the older buses were grotty, because they seemed fairly well maintained, and Grampian did still have a fairly standardised fleet, but "oooh... shiny!" The visibility of the small cleaners' vans carrying the Gold Service branding also gave the impression that this was an operator trying to offer a higher-quality product.

That all seemed to go out of the window when First was created. There were a few new deliveries in the form of the Wright-bodied Scanias, and a few Pointer-bodied Darts, but the feeling of quality had gone.

The Mercs were known for their rock hard seats, something admittedly that carried on with the B10BLEs (although not as bad). In all honesty the 90s are a different time to now. Operators were nowhere near as strapped for cash back then... All i really have to say on that topic.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

I notice that there has been another thread created about First in Scotland, and I'm somewhat conflicted as to where I should post!


This was what was happening in Aberdeen before the creation of FirstBus (as it was known then). When the Mercs came along with their "Gold Service" and "GRT Advance" branding, the new buses were a breath of fresh air compared to the Atlanteans that still made up a large proportion of the fleet at the time. It would be unfair to say that the older buses were grotty, because they seemed fairly well maintained, and Grampian did still have a fairly standardised fleet, but "oooh... shiny!" The visibility of the small cleaners' vans carrying the Gold Service branding also gave the impression that this was an operator trying to offer a higher-quality product.

That all seemed to go out of the window when First was created. There were a few new deliveries in the form of the Wright-bodied Scanias, and a few Pointer-bodied Darts, but the feeling of quality had gone.

My bad, I dont mean to cause confusion, there is a thread particularly for Aberdeen and Another for Glasgow, I ment “First in Scotland” for all info, issues, concerns overall

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Only 2 B7LAs have actually caught fire though, both from an early Euro 2 batch so that nickname is rather daft. The interiors on the buses are tidy and that's what matters. Passengers don't really care what the interior is like so long as it's tidy and presentable. (which they are).

If you read my comments properly you'll see it's a Hydrogen powered Streetdeck....

The 21M Capacity would be illegal in the UK and the 19.7M model would probably be too big to fit round most of the route anyway.



The Mercs were known for their rock hard seats, something admittedly that carried on with the B10BLEs (although not as bad). In all honesty the 90s are a different time to now. Operators were nowhere near as strapped for cash back then... All i really have to say on that topic.

There seems a dilemma, 19.7m bendys either being to long to navigate despite them having enough capacity, perhaps the same issue with a 12.8m e500 if it were made available to the UK market, turning circle, even with the 11.5m 400..

These are particularly impressive through, up to 190 passengers

 

[Jordan Adam]

There seems a dilemma, 19.7m bendys either being to long to navigate despite them having enough capacity, perhaps the same issue with a 12.8m e500 if it were made available to the UK market, turning circle, even with the 11.5m 400..

These are particularly impressive through, up to 190 passengers

The 12.8M E500 with a steering tag could work but i doubt they'd make it round some of the streets on the 1/2, the 11.5M E400 suffers the same issue, even the capacity on the 11.5M E400 is far too low. They currently try to avoid putting E500s on certain runs in the morning peak when the University timetable is in full swing as even they are too small.

The higher capacity of the B7LA is favoured for peak runs on the 1/1A to RGU, but the higher seat capacity of the E500s is favoured for the 2 to Ashwood. Personally the way to solve this is to use Artics on the 1/1A and then high capacity deckers on the 2. Then perhaps have it so on Evenings and Weekends both the 1 and 2 use the deckers with Artics to top up.

I think the best option for when the time comes for new vehicles is to get a mix of Citaro Gs and 12M Enviro500s. In theory the B7LAs should be replaced in 2020/21 with the E500s going in 2024/25.

 

[Swanny200]

I notice that there has been another thread created about First in Scotland, and I'm somewhat conflicted as to where I should post!


This was what was happening in Aberdeen before the creation of FirstBus (as it was known then). When the Mercs came along with their "Gold Service" and "GRT Advance" branding, the new buses were a breath of fresh air compared to the Atlanteans that still made up a large proportion of the fleet at the time. It would be unfair to say that the older buses were grotty, because they seemed fairly well maintained, and Grampian did still have a fairly standardised fleet, but "oooh... shiny!" The visibility of the small cleaners' vans carrying the Gold Service branding also gave the impression that this was an operator trying to offer a higher-quality product.

That all seemed to go out of the window when First was created. There were a few new deliveries in the form of the Wright-bodied Scanias, and a few Pointer-bodied Darts, but the feeling of quality had gone.

I left in 1990 and remember the Atlanteans vividly, they were on the majority of the routes that I travelled although I would get the odd olympian which didn't seem to have the character of the Atlanteans. All I remember was that they were always clean and tidy inside and out, I went back up a few years later and got on one of the new buses when it was proper Barbie firstbus and there were tickets all over the floor along with chewing gum etc.... Grampian used to take pride in it's fleet, considering FirstBus was technically Grampian... What changed??

 

[alangla]

Do Aberdeen still have the ex-Glasgow 09 plate E500s then? Are all of them still there & is there a reason for not looking at another Hong Kong solution to high demand routes? I remember when those things were in Glasgow, the lack of a steered tag axle used to rip lumps out of the road surface at the corner of Gibson Street and University Avenue, the Stagecoach Panthers, Astromegas and formerly Skyliners never had the same problem

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Do Aberdeen still have the ex-Glasgow 09 plate E500s then? Are all of them still there & is there a reason for not looking at another Hong Kong solution to high demand routes? I remember when those things were in Glasgow, the lack of a steered tag axle used to rip lumps out of the road surface at the corner of Gibson Street and University Avenue, the Stagecoach Panthers, Astromegas and formerly Skyliners never had the same problem

There all still at aberdeen, most likely that will be the solution to more e500 in the future, I cant see bendys being bought again

 

[Jordan Adam]

I left in 1990 and remember the Atlanteans vividly, they were on the majority of the routes that I travelled although I would get the odd olympian which didn't seem to have the character of the Atlanteans. All I remember was that they were always clean and tidy inside and out, I went back up a few years later and got on one of the new buses when it was proper Barbie firstbus and there were tickets all over the floor along with chewing gum etc.... Grampian used to take pride in it's fleet, considering FirstBus was technically Grampian... What changed??

Nothing on that part, to be fair it depends on the time of day, the route and if there's been events on.

There all still at aberdeen, most likely that will be the solution to more e500 in the future, I cant see bendys being bought again

While more Artics is most ideal i'd agree with you in that more E500s is the most probable solution.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/fp...y-could-be-on-the-road-to-strike-action1/amp/

Surprize surprize, I would mention though that lothian buses operates there single deck contract similarly, I fail to see why theres being such a high demand amongst aberdeen employees, lothian drivers at the time I was there didnt seem to mind to much, good exercise.

 

[Jordan Adam]

https://www.eveningexpress.co.uk/fp...y-could-be-on-the-road-to-strike-action1/amp/

Surprize surprize, I would mention though that lothian buses operates there single deck contract similarly, I fail to see why theres being such a high demand amongst aberdeen employees, lothian drivers at the time I was there didnt seem to mind to much, good exercise.

Aberdeen drivers have always been far better off than everyone else in FirstGroup (and most of the industry for that matter). Now that they're contracts are being brought in line with the rest of FirstGroup, they're not happy. Most of the drivers that left are those that were nearing retirement. Only a few drivers have went to Stagecoach, which is stupid as they offer an almost identical contract at a lower rate!

It appears the driver shortage issue may be almost solved though as i've not seen any missing buses for a good few days now and many drivers who were due to come up this and next week have been told they're no longer needed. There are still some agency drivers though.

 

[Volvodart]

There are still quite a few buses missed out in the morning peak today

 

[Bluebirdscot66]

Are there enough agency drivers to cover the shortage in overtime working ? I'm presuming that Aberdeen get an enhanced overtime rate and is that anything worked over 39 hrs or just rest day working ?

 

[KendalKing]

The 6 at Livingston (10162/67/68/69/73/83) are now at Larbet going through their MOTs pending transfer to Bath

One arrived at Bath, this afternoon.

 

[Volvodart]

One arrived at Bath, this afternoon.

10169

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Can someone confirm the engine withing the e500 deckers, is it the ISM 10.8 or ISL 8.9 engine?

 

[Jordan Adam]

Can someone confirm the engine withing the e500 deckers, is it the ISM 10.8 or ISL 8.9 engine?

Cummins ISL 8.9L rated at 380BHP. The ISM was phased out at Euro 4

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Cummins ISL 8.9L rated at 380BHP. The ISM was phased out at Euro 4

I see then the 8.9 is a euro5 engine?

 

[Jordan Adam]

I see then the 8.9 is a euro5 engine?

It's actually continued on to Euro 6 too. But the Aberdeen Enviro500s are only Euro 4 compliant, although i doubt it would take much to get them to Euro 5.

The engine is a evolution of the old L10 unit.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

It's actually continued on to Euro 6 too. But the Aberdeen Enviro500s are only Euro 4 compliant, although i doubt it would take much to get them to Euro 5.

The engine is a evolution of the old L10 unit.

From what I have read from the scottish government an LEZ is to be set up in Aberdeen, I wouldve thought Union St would have been included in that, considering that the e500s are up and down there every day they’d have to be euro6 compliant?

 

[Jordan Adam]

From what I have read from the scottish government an LEZ is to be set up in Aberdeen, I wouldve thought Union St would have been included in that, considering that the e500s are up and down there every day they’d have to be euro6 compliant?

There was talk a few years ago about having a LEZ zone along Market Street. But i can't see Aberdeen getting a LEZ zone as AWPR is meant to in part be an alternative, also Union Street may one day become buses only, which would significantly reduce emissions. Although nothing is actually confirmed.

Personally i don't think having LEZ zones affecting buses is the answer. The money could and should be spent on ways to lower car use and increase bus use.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

There was talk a few years ago about having a LEZ zone along Market Street. But i can't see Aberdeen getting a LEZ zone as AWPR is meant to in part be an alternative, also Union Street may one day become buses only, which would significantly reduce emissions. Although nothing is actually confirmed.

Personally i don't think having LEZ zones affecting buses is the answer. The money could and should be spent on ways to lower car use and increase bus use.

There isnt any sure fire way to lower car use, most nowadays will not give up car use so easily, they’ll have to be persuaded heavily, or in other words forced out of there cars through sheer cost through Congestion and Emission Charging.

When you look at the emission levels of say a hybrid euro6 bus versus a euro 3 or 4 bus the differences become staggering, comparing a Euro6 Hybrid to say even a euro5 diesel the emissions are reduced by around the 30 to 40%, even more so comparing them against older E3 or E4 buses.

 

[Jordan Adam]

There isnt any sure fire way to lower car use, most nowadays will not give up car use so easily, they’ll have to be persuaded heavily, or in other words forced out of there cars through sheer cost through Congestion and Emission Charging.

When you look at the emission levels of say a hybrid euro6 bus versus a euro 3 or 4 bus the differences become staggering, comparing a Euro6 Hybrid to say even a euro5 diesel the emissions are reduced by around the 30 to 40%, even more so comparing them against older E3 or E4 buses.

While i see your point. I think once AWPR opens we'll see a heavy reduction in traffic and pollution. I do think restricting many streets in the city centre is the only logical answer. It's just unrealistic and wasteful to have a whole fleet of buses Euro 6 compliant by X date.

As i say, putting restrictions on buses should be the last resort.

Regarding car use in Aberdeen, the council here are utterly useless when it comes to bus priority, which is part of the reason why cars are so popular. Most car users deem the bus too slow as it gets stuck in the many bottlenecks around the city that have poor bus priority. North Anderson Drive N-bound is a great example. As is the whole 8 or so mile route from Culter in to the city.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

While i see your point. I think once AWPR opens we'll see a heavy reduction in traffic and pollution. I do think restricting many streets in the city centre is the only logical answer. It's just unrealistic and wasteful to have a whole fleet of buses Euro 6 compliant by X date.

As i say, putting restrictions on buses should be the last resort.

Regarding car use in Aberdeen, the council here are utterly useless when it comes to bus priority, which is part of the reason why cars are so popular. Most car users deem the bus too slow as it gets stuck in the many bottlenecks around the city that have poor bus priority. North Anderson Drive N-bound is a great example. As is the whole 8 or so mile route from Culter in to the city.

I would think cars are so popular not because the bus is slower, because generally speaking if your using the same roads as a bus your caught in that same traffic, I personally use my car because its convenient to me despite the extra cost of fuel, but I would only use my car locally in a small village etc, but If I visit town I always take the bus, point being that many people will use there cars out of one sole reason, that being convenience, many people nowadays will have access to a bus to there major city within reasonable jounreys time for work and leasure etc

I would like to think that its not the main reason but kinda of a sub-reason that many councils across the whole country don’t move more quickly to halt car congestion is with the biggest regards to our cities making there revenues and bringing in shoppers through people driving to there local city, many a times I see one person per car at rush hour!

Out of fear of reducing that appeal of car use, its whats bring money to our high streets, the public convenience of a car does that, it is a difficult balancing act, although there is reason to believe many could actually save money taking a bus!

 

[overthewater]

Main reason for the convenience is getting to your work.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Main reason for the convenience is getting to your work.

Of course, I’m afraid I’m with the controversial congestion and emission charging philosophy!

I have a car that I love but by no means feel that it is my sole right to clog up the roads or use that vehicles in the thick of the city jungle even if it ment getting to work I would have to find another means of getting there, or just find another job!

My point is though there will be thousands of people out there who could be using a bus and leaving the car at home for the weekend away and using PT for work etc, the people I’m pointing at are those ones who stay in Cities! Or those who think using a city centre as a commuters bi way is somehow acceptible.