First Capital Connect - evening restrictions

[Suzey]

Hi all

I regularly travel from Elephant and Castle to Luton at between 5pm and 6pm on a weekday and usually get charged for an Anytime ticket costing £14.70.

However, the other night, the ticket clerk pointed out that since it's a single, I could buy an off-peak ticket as it's only return tickets which are restricted coming out of London, not singles. So he sold me a cheap single, which with my Network Card only cost a tenner

The thing is, some clerks still think that I should be paying the higher rate because it's 5pm and I'm travelling within the hour and don't understand what I'm saying when I tell them it's only the return portions which are restricted, so I sometimes have to pay the higher rate because they won't sell me a cheap one (I would buy my ticket from the machine, but the one at E&C doesn't sell tickets to Luton).

So who is correct and how much should I be paying??

Suze

 

[glynn80]

Hi all

I regularly travel from Elephant and Castle to Luton at between 5pm and 6pm on a weekday and usually get charged for an Anytime ticket costing £14.70.

However, the other night, the ticket clerk pointed out that since it's a single, I could buy an off-peak ticket as it's only return tickets which are restricted coming out of London, not singles. So he sold me a cheap single, which with my Network Card only cost a tenner

The thing is, some clerks still think that I should be paying the higher rate because it's 5pm and I'm travelling within the hour and don't understand what I'm saying when I tell them it's only the return portions which are restricted, so I sometimes have to pay the higher rate because they won't sell me a cheap one (I would buy my ticket from the machine, but the one at E&C doesn't sell tickets to Luton).

So who is correct and how much should I be paying??

Suze

The ticket clerk you originally spoke to was correct.

There is an Anytime Single at £14.70 or an Off Peak Single at £11.90.

The Anytime Single in its nature is valid at anytime on any train. The Off Peak Single has a restriction code TN which states the following

VALIDITY CODE TN

Valid as listed below Mondays to Fridays (by any train on other days)

Outward Travel
Valid on the train shown and all later trains

From:
Elephant & Castle 0930
London Bridge 0911
London Blackfriars 0900
City Thameslink 0902
Moorgate 0906
Farringdon 0900
London St Pancras International 0900
Kentish Town 0901
West Hampstead Thameslink 0904
Cricklewood 0907
Hendon 0910
Mill Hill Broadway 0914
Elstree & Borehamwood 0903
Radlett 0908
St Albans 0909
Harpenden 0904
Luton Airport Parkway 0900
Luton 0904
Leagrave 0916
Harlington 0902
Flitwick 0906

Return Travel
Valid by any train

So basically if you use the outward or return restrictions it still shows the Off Peak Single is valid. If the ticket clerk argues again ask them to check the restriction code for the ticket on the online fares manual and they will then be able to see what I have posted above.

 

[Suzey]

Thanks for this - I thought so! But I did learn something new from your reply - I didn't realise northbound travel from London was subject to a morning peak. I thought it was only southbound travel from stations north of London.

I was going to write to FCC to ask for a refund on the amounts they've overcharged and definitely will now - wish me luck because from past experience of dealing with them I think I'm going to need it. (I'm also going to ask them to see if they can get Luton programmed into the self-service machine so I can buy what I want, esp given you sometimes have to queue for ages at E&C as there's only one desk). How do I articulate to them the stuff about TN codes though (as this seems to be the cornerstone of my argument)?

Also, if I ask argumentative ticket clerks to check the restriction code (given that half of them don't even understand what I'm asking for when I say PlusBus and I've had to resort to carrying old tickets and asking "can I have one of these for today please?" ) will they understand what I'm asking them to do?

Suze

 

[clagmonster]

Surely with the Network Railcard, it should be £10 either way, as travel is after 10:00, and the discounted fare for both ticket types is below the £10 minimum.

 

[Suzey]

Possibly, but I've never tried it as I (wrongly) thought the Network Card could only be used to gain a discount on a cheap day return/single. It didn't occur to me that it was for any ticket for travel after 10am.

Suze

Surely with the Network Railcard, it should be £10 either way, as travel is after 10:00, and the discounted fare for both ticket types is below the £10 minimum.

 

[PTF62]

The FCC timetables say that the evening peak restriction on FCC is not within the penalty fare scheme, and that passengers incorrectly travelling on a restricted ticket will only be charged the appropriate excess fare.

As it is the return part of an off-peak return that is restricted what would the "appropriate excess fare" be?

 

[First class]

The FCC timetables say that the evening peak restriction on FCC is not within the penalty fare scheme, and that passengers incorrectly travelling on a restricted ticket will only be charged the appropriate excess fare.

As it is the return part of an off-peak return that is restricted what would the "appropriate excess fare" be?

The appropriate excess would be:

(Example)

Off peak return (restricted ticket) is £10.00
Anytime return (unrestricted) is £16.00

A return excess on both portions would be £6, (the difference between the two tickets)

The single Excess should be £3, (half the return fare).

Remember, penalty fares cannot be issued for a ticket restriction/being off route.

 

[yorkie]

As previously mentioned the fare is £10 with either an Anytime or Off Peak and outward portions of Off Peak tickets are valid for journeys with the restriction code of TN (among others including B1 which FCC use for journeys out of KGX)

Interestingly, an Off Peak Day outward (or single) can be used on the 1820 NXEC service to Stevenage, as FCC set the fare. An Off Peak Day outward to Peterborough cannot be used on this same train as NXEC set that fare and have a policy barring Off Peak Day outward/return and also barring Off Peak outwards. You cannot use the Return portion of an Off Peak day but you can use the return portion of an Off Peak return from Peterborough on the 18:20.

So, in summary, on the 18:20 NXEC service from KGX:
Going to Stevenage on an Outward Off Peak Day = VALID
Going to Stevenage on an Return Off Peak Day = NOT VALID
Going to Peterborough on an Outward Off Peak = NOT VALID
Going to Peterborough on an Return Off Peak = VALID
Going to Peterborough on an Outward Off Peak Day = NOT VALID
Going to Peterborough on an Return Off Peak Day = NOT VALID

 

[will1337]

i laffed

 

[PTF62]

The appropriate excess would be:

(Example)

So just to make sure I understand, Cambridge to London Kings Cross
Off peak return (restricted ticket) is £20.00
Anytime return (unrestricted) is £32.50

You have an Off peak return and travel out after 9am, so no problem there, but you decide to return in the evening peak. If I understand the excess would be £6.25.

Would there be any obligation to pay this before boarding the train?

 

[First class]

So just to make sure I understand, Cambridge to London Kings Cross
Off peak return (restricted ticket) is £20.00
Anytime return (unrestricted) is £32.50

You have an Off peak return and travel out after 9am, so no problem there, but you decide to return in the evening peak. If I understand the excess would be £6.25.

Would there be any obligation to pay this before boarding the train?

£6.25 is correct. If you knowingly board a train with an invalid ticket then you may encounter problems. I would advise you strongly to obtain your excess ticket in advance of boarding the train. (allow 10mins at the counter).

 

[yorkie]

The worst they can do is charge the full difference. Some machines may charge half the difference but I am sure some charge the full difference. But that's the worst they can do. I'd do this on board as queuing can take ages. They cannot issue a PF.

 

[PTF62]

If you knowingly board a train with an invalid ticket then you may encounter problems.

What is the worst that could happen? This is a genuine question, as I know that you cannot be charge a Penalty Fare, so am interested in what problem you would encounter, other than paying an excess fare if you were using an off-peak ticket on FCC's evening service..

The worst they can do is charge the full difference.

Are they allowed to do this if the correct excess fare is half the difference, or is the correct excess fare the full difference. Surely there has to be a correct answer, and the rules are not just made up as they go along?

 

[John @ home]

Surely there has to be a correct answer, and the rules are not just made up as they go along?

The difficulty is that the correct answer is no longer in the public domain. And the hints from those who do have access to the correct answer suggest that different pieces of equipment may calculate the answer differently.

John

 

[PTF62]

I would consider that if different pieces of equipment calculate the answer differently, it just means that some of the equipment is broken.

The correct answer must be in the public domain, since the result of that answer is what passengers are being charged.

 

[yorkie]

Are they allowed to do this if the correct excess fare is half the difference, or is the correct excess fare the full difference. Surely there has to be a correct answer, and the rules are not just made up as they go along?

It is half the difference for a route excess or an over-distance excess.

But I am told that changing ticket type is a full difference excess however it appears some machines only charge half the difference, but I am sure some charge the full difference. It will be down to the way they've been programmed.

 

[furryfeet]

so is then such practice of having different ticket machines calculating the answer differently illegal ?

what do the railregulator and the trading standards have to say about this ?

 

[jon0844]

I think it's also crazy that FCC use different machines. Not different shaped machines, but totally different software running on them.

Unsurprisingly, I can manage both because I've used both and fiddled around with them when waiting at night for a train, but Joe Public are hard enough to convince as it is to use the machines - so why the hell would you give them totally different systems irrespective of whether there's a programming issue.

Don't London Underground use the same software on all their touchscreen machines?

I haven't yet found any obvious bugs on the new machines, but will never forget being able to get a ticket to anywhere for the same price as the last ticket sold. £1.60 to Edinburgh from Hatfield anyone? (And no, I never once actually got a ticket at that price).

£6.25 is correct. If you knowingly board a train with an invalid ticket then you may encounter problems. I would advise you strongly to obtain your excess ticket in advance of boarding the train. (allow 10mins at the counter).

The problem you'll have is not being let through the gates (not that Finsbury Park have them).

Although no good for the fast trains, there was always a legitimate way of avoiding the extra if you had a Travelcard/return.

The restrictions, when they used to cover a wider area (FCC did back down on stations like Hatfield soon after introducing it) only counted if you boarded at King's Cross or Finsbury Park. I forget the TL side details.

So, if you got the 1722 or 1752 service to Royston, or any other train that stopped between Finsbury Park and the restricted area outside of London, you could legitmately board the train with your off-peak ticket and say you were alighting at, say, Oakleigh Park or New Barnet (both within z1-6). Then simply step off and back on (break of journey) and you've now boarded outside of the restricted area and can travel without paying an excess.

I guess the same applies now, but it's less of an issue after the zones were modified. Some people might not want to get a slow or semi-fast train and possibly have to swap trains en route.

 

[yorkie]

so is then such practice of having different ticket machines calculating the answer differently illegal ?

what do the railregulator and the trading standards have to say about this ?

i hope no-one complains, because if they do you know what the result will be...:roll:

a better course would be for us to identify which machines offer it cheaper and use them.

I´m fed up of the TOCs removing ´anomalies´ by putting the cheaper price up and it´s blatantly obvious that they´d do that here. I would rather the anomalies existed as at least then we can save money!