First Capital Connect - penalty fare advice

[Cupcakequeen]

Hi there

I'm new to the forum but am hoping someone can advise me.

Three days a week I travel on London Underground from High Barnet tube station to Old Street tube station to my place of work. During school half term (last week in May 2013), I had alternative childcare for my two young children and therefore took the train from New Barnet overland station to Old Street. On Wednesday 29th May I topped up my Oyster card at New Barnet station and whilst doing so the train I needed to board was arriving into the station. I hurriredly completed the transaction, ran to the platform and scanned my Oyster against the card reader as I ran past.

During my journey to Old Street, just before the train arrived into Old Street station, a ticket inspector came through my carriage. I handed her my Oyster card which she scanned against her reader. She informed me that I didn't appear to have scanned my Oyster card at New Barnet. I explained that I had done so but had been running for the train at the time. She advised me that the reader obviously hadn't read my Oyster card properly as it wasn't showing up on her machine. She did however say that she could tell I had just topped up my Oyster card with £20 that morning at New Barnet station. She advised that I could be fined for not having a valid ticket for my journey but she could tell that it was a genuine mistake and she advised me to talk to the Ticket Booth operator inside the barriers at Old Street so he could sort my ticket out for me, allowing me to exit the barriers.

I exited the train and made my way through the tunnel/corridor to the escalators at Old Street station. In the corridor before I got to the escalator, I encountered another ticket inspector. I explained the situation to this lady and told her I had just had a conversation with a ticket inspector on the train I had just got off. She told me this wasn't possible, that there were no ticket inspectors on the train that morning. I assured her there was and told her of my conversation with the inspector on train. She insisted that I needed to pay an on the spot £20 penalty fare. I told her I didn't wish to do this and asked if I could speak to someone else. She informed me that the only alternative was for me to give her my contact details and then I could put my side of events in writing.

I today received a letter asking me to pay £55.70. There is no breakdown of what this amount is made up of - I have no idea how they got to this amount!

It was not my intention to fare dodge. It was a genuine mistake where I believed my Oyster card had registered on the scanner when I swiped it as I ran past. I was surprised when the original inspector on the train informed me that it hadn't registered.

Please can someone advise me what I should/could do? Thank you.

 

[34D]

First question: do you want to pay £55.70 to make this matter go away, or do you want to have a good attempt at getting them to back down?

Second question: do you know the time of your oyster topup transaction (either from your receipt at the time, your oyster online account, or your bank (if you topped up by card)?).

 

[transmanche]

She insisted that I needed to pay an on the spot £20 penalty fare. [...] It was not my intention to fare dodge. It was a genuine mistake where I believed my Oyster card had registered on the scanner when I swiped it as I ran past.

I understand how that can feel unfair, when if you had just used the exit gates at Old Street as normal, you would just have been charged a maximum fare. But unfortunately, that is how the Penalty Fare (PF) system works. The PF is for people who have made genuine mistakes - if they suspect deliberate fare evasion, then they look to prosecute.

If you had met a TfL inspector, then the PF would have been £80 (reduced to £40 is paid within 21 days). So the offer of £55.50 from FCC to settle is not unreasonable in comparison.

I today received a letter asking me to pay £55.70. There is no breakdown of what this amount is made up of - I have no idea how they got to this amount!

The peak time fare from New Barnet to Old Street is £4.70. I guess they have added their admin costs of £51(!) to that,

 

[Deerfold]

I today received a letter asking me to pay £55.70. There is no breakdown of what this amount is made up of - I have no idea how they got to this amount!

Who is this letter from?

Does it ask anything else or just ask for £55.70?

 

[CyrusWuff]

The peak time fare from New Barnet to Old Street is £4.70. I guess they have added their admin costs of £51(!) to that,

I would assume that the "relevant fare" in this case would be the cash Single fare of £5.70, rather than the Oyster PAYG fare; the OP having lost the opportunity to pay the Oyster rate by failing to ensure the touch in at New Barnet registered correctly.

Unfortunately for the OP, I would suggest that the least worst option would be to pay the amount requested, as it's their word against the second RPI's, unless the OP can find the first RPI to verify their account.

 

[Cupcakequeen]

Thanks so much for the replies.

In answer to your questions, the letter is from First Capital Connect and is entitled "Travel Irreigularity". It says:

"On Weds 29th May 2013 at 09.27 your details were taken by a RPI for the offence of entering a train for the purpose of travelling without a ticket entitling travel at OLD STREET. This letter is to inform you that on this occasion it is our initial intention to deal with this without court action, please send a payment of £55.70. This includes the fare for the journey undertaken.

It then goes on to explain how to pay and what to do if you wish to make an appeal.

I topped up my Oyster card with £20 at 09.12am at New Barnet station that morning. This is logged on my Oyster records.

I'm not up for a big fight against these people. It was a genuine mistake, in fact I didn't even realise the "mistake" had happened! The reason I didn't pay the £20 on the spot fine was because I really felt like I was being treated unfairly. I couldn't believe they were trying to "fine" me!

Am I better off to fork out the payment and forget about it?


The

 

[paddington]

Well, having topped up just before getting on a train would show there was no intent to avoid a fare.

 

[bb21]

Well, having topped up just before getting on a train would show there was no intent to avoid a fare.

Erm, you would think so, but no I don't think we have solid evidence to believe that this is the case.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I'm not up for a big fight against these people. It was a genuine mistake, in fact I didn't even realise the "mistake" had happened! The reason I didn't pay the £20 on the spot fine was because I really felt like I was being treated unfairly. I couldn't believe they were trying to "fine" me!

Am I better off to fork out the payment and forget about it?

It really depends on how much time and hassle you are willing to put up with.

The path of least resistence is certainly to just pay it. It seems a little unfair, however as someone has already explained, the Penalty Fare scheme is actually designed to "penalise" (if you like) people who make honest mistakes. This has obviously now escalated as you refused to pay the Penalty Fare so if you don't pay the £55.70, they could withdraw the offer and prosecute instead. Leaving my personal opinion of the Penalty Fare scheme aside, they are in operation and we must deal with them.

As I understand it, you don't have any defence if prosecuted under the Byelaws, as you failed to present a validated Oyster on demand, however you might have an argument that you had no intention to avoid paying the correct fare if prosecuted under the Regulation of Railways Act for fare evasion, which your action topping up just beforehand may or may not be sufficient proof. If this is the case, you will need to seek legal advice.

So really, the choice is between paying the £55.70, or risk being prosecuted, in which they may or may not succeed, and the associated anguish and hassle for the next few months.

It would have been a better strategy at the time to accept the Penalty Fare but only make the minimum payment required, ie. the single fare due, and then appeal afterwards. The worst case scenario is that you lose, but only out by £20, rather than what you have now found yourself in. I know it is too late saying this now, but this should be the strategy adopted by people who genuinely believe they are in the right.

 

[Fare-Cop]

As I understand it, you don't have any defence if prosecuted under the Byelaws, as you failed to present a validated Oyster on demand, however you might have an argument that you had no intention to avoid paying the correct fare if prosecuted under the Regulation of Railways Act for fare evasion, which your action topping up just beforehand may or may not be sufficient proof. If this is the case, you will need to seek legal advice.
QUOTE]


Yes, I agree. There is no chance of a Byelaw 18.2 charge succeeding because the un-validated Oyster was shown. (Burns v FCC.)

There is little chance of a Sect.5 RoRA charge succeeding because of the top-up immediately before travelling, but a PAYG Oyster is not evidence of a fare paid ticket until it has been correctly validated.

A Byelaw 18.1 charge would succeed and in my opinion, that is the likely course of action if you choose not to accept FCC's opportunity to resolve without Court action.

It seems unfair, and you should appeal first, but don't be surprised if they 'cannot find any evidence that supports your claim of being spoken to by any other RPI'.

Maybe you will be successful, good luck

 

[benk1342]

Are we forgetting the fact that she was given permission to travel by the RPI on the train? I understand that it is very difficult to get any evidence of this aside from the OP's word, but it nevertheless happened and I don't think it should just be ignored.

 

[flymo]

Any CCTV on these trains..?? Might prove that someone did talk to the OP if there is.

 

[transmanche]

Any CCTV on these trains..?? Might prove that someone did talk to the OP if there is.

From experience, whilst TOCs are willing to use CCTV as evidence against you - they are unwilling to use/accept CCTV to exonerate you.

 

[DavyCrocket]

From experience, whilst TOCs are willing to use CCTV as evidence against you - they are unwilling to use/accept CCTV to exonerate you.

That's why the Data Protection Act exists though best of luck actually getting an image!

Does the Criminal Procedures Disclosure Act apply to TOCs prosecuting? This is when the Police/CPS disclose any relevant information to the defence.

 

[455driver]

Are we forgetting the fact that she was given permission to travel by the RPI on the train?

Prove it!

Although I have no reason to doubt the OP, anyone can say "the bloke at the station said it would be okay" or "the lady on the train said everything would be fine" cant they, there needs to be some sort of proof even if it is just a note of the persons name who gave the permission then that person could be contacted to confirm the facts, no name equals no proof.

 

[Cupcakequeen]

As I understand it, you don't have any defence if prosecuted under the Byelaws, as you failed to present a validated Oyster on demand, however you might have an argument that you had no intention to avoid paying the correct fare if prosecuted under the Regulation of Railways Act for fare evasion, which your action topping up just beforehand may or may not be sufficient proof. If this is the case, you will need to seek legal advice.
QUOTE]


Yes, I agree. There is no chance of a Byelaw 18.2 charge succeeding because the un-validated Oyster was shown. (Burns v FCC.)

There is little chance of a Sect.5 RoRA charge succeeding because of the top-up immediately before travelling, but a PAYG Oyster is not evidence of a fare paid ticket until it has been correctly validated.

A Byelaw 18.1 charge would succeed and in my opinion, that is the likely course of action if you choose not to accept FCC's opportunity to resolve without Court action.

It seems unfair, and you should appeal first, but don't be surprised if they 'cannot find any evidence that supports your claim of being spoken to by any other RPI'.

Maybe you will be successful, good luck

Thanks for the advice everyone. What's a Byelaw 18.1?

To be honest, I could do without the hassle of taking this further and going to court, etc. I have neither the time nor money. I think the whole situation was very harsh - and to encounter two inspectors within minutes of each other, well, luck certainly wasn't on my side!

I do think it was unfair and I guess it got my back up when the 2nd inspector tried to charge me an on the spot penalty of £20, especially as the 1st inspector had let me go through. I had thought at the time it was a "fine" and I was made to feel like a fare dodger by the 2nd inspector, which is what riled me I guess. I wish I'd paid it now as here I am a few weeks later facing a fine of treble that!

I'd like to make an attempt at an appeal, it's got to be worth a shot, hasn't it? Can anyone tell me - if I do appeal it, do I still get the chance to pay the £55.70 if they decide my appeal is unsuccessful? If I write in and they decide I'm still liable will they give me the opportunity to pay it or will they say "No, you're wrong and now we're taking you to court"? If the latter, then I'd rather just pay the fine now and not bother appealing but if the former, I figure I've got nothing to lose by appealing.

Thanks for all your great advice.

I can't speak for other TOCs, but if one of the RPIs round my way give authority to travel they always endorse the ticket with suitable wording accompanied by their Authorised Collector number, such that anyone encountered later on knows who's authorised it.

I'm assuming they wouldn't be able to do that on an Oyster card though?

Actually, would the initial RPI have anything recorded on her reader from when she scanned my Oyster card on the train?

jonmorris0844, thanks for the advice, I think I will do what you advise. I phoned the office on Friday and they advised me to write in and gave me an email address to use. How should I go about making payment then? Is it not likely that they'll just accept the payment if I make it though? Isn't it just more work for them to refund part of it if they decide they'll only charge me the £20 pencalty rather than the full amount as stated on their letter?

Erm, you would think so, but no I don't think we have solid evidence to believe that this is the case.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


It really depends on how much time and hassle you are willing to put up with.

The path of least resistence is certainly to just pay it. It seems a little unfair, however as someone has already explained, the Penalty Fare scheme is actually designed to "penalise" (if you like) people who make honest mistakes. This has obviously now escalated as you refused to pay the Penalty Fare so if you don't pay the £55.70, they could withdraw the offer and prosecute instead. Leaving my personal opinion of the Penalty Fare scheme aside, they are in operation and we must deal with them.

As I understand it, you don't have any defence if prosecuted under the Byelaws, as you failed to present a validated Oyster on demand, however you might have an argument that you had no intention to avoid paying the correct fare if prosecuted under the Regulation of Railways Act for fare evasion, which your action topping up just beforehand may or may not be sufficient proof. If this is the case, you will need to seek legal advice.

So really, the choice is between paying the £55.70, or risk being prosecuted, in which they may or may not succeed, and the associated anguish and hassle for the next few months.

It would have been a better strategy at the time to accept the Penalty Fare but only make the minimum payment required, ie. the single fare due, and then appeal afterwards. The worst case scenario is that you lose, but only out by £20, rather than what you have now found yourself in. I know it is too late saying this now, but this should be the strategy adopted by people who genuinely believe they are in the right.

I asked if I could pay the single fare due but the Inspector said I could only pay £20 on the spot fine or she would have to take my details. I went for the latter.

Hindsight is a great thing

Prove it!

Although I have no reason to doubt the OP, anyone can say "the bloke at the station said it would be okay" or "the lady on the train said everything would be fine" cant they, there needs to be some sort of proof even if it is just a note of the persons name who gave the permission then that person could be contacted to confirm the facts, no name equals no proof.

I agree with you. It didn't occur to me to ask the first inspector for a note or some sort of proof, I think I was a bit in shock that she was telling me I didn't have a valid Oyster card! Also, I honestly didn't imagine I would encounter another inspector shortly after stepping off the train. What are the chances of that?

Surely FCC must have some record of where their inspectors are on certain days? For example, would they not know that there were inspectors based at Old Street, Moorgate and Finsbury Park (for example) and inspectors on the Welwyn Garden City trains to Moorgate (for example) that morning? Or am I talking nonsense?

 

[jon0844]

This sounds like an unfortunate situation, but my advice would be to pay the money to avoid further trouble and then write to FCC customer services to complain.

But, in your complaint, it will be vital to point out that you did make a mistake and accepted that. And the RPI on the train accepted it and gave permission to continue travel and sort it out at the end.

Now, the bit about an RPI at the station saying no other RPIs were working that morning seems rather odd, given many RPIs don't work specific trains but simply go on one, get off and take another (but they DO log this on their own sheets). I find it hard to believe that any one member of staff would, or could, know where all the RPIs are at any given time - unless there was some specific sting that they were all at (possible) but even then, the RPI in question could have been on their way somewhere and decided to do a ticket check..

Anyway, the point is that there will be a log. There might well be other evidence, such as CCTV on the train (likely given the fact you were obviously on a Class 313 train to Old Street, which DO have CCTV) and there should be CCTV at the station too.

Sure, FCC might not bother to check this - but they might take your word for it. The point being that you have nothing to lose by writing in and giving the full story, but arguing against the current 'fine' is NOT a good idea.

I guess you would have been liable for a Penalty Fare for your mistake, so by all means offer to pay this for your error but claim that the additional charge is unfair. Then leave it to them.

I can say that, in my experience, they do respond positively to politely written letters where you ensure that you get the person reading to sympathise with you, not get angry because you're demanding and 'outraged'.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I can't speak for other TOCs, but if one of the RPIs round my way give authority to travel they always endorse the ticket with suitable wording accompanied by their Authorised Collector number, such that anyone encountered later on knows who's authorised it.

 

[transmanche]

I can't speak for other TOCs, but if one of the RPIs round my way give authority to travel they always endorse the ticket with suitable wording accompanied by their Authorised Collector number, such that anyone encountered later on knows who's authorised it.

Good to hear. But sadly not much help when using an Oyster card - like the OP.

 

[jon0844]

For future reference, I'd ask for the badge number (you could also get their name, but they'll only have their first name - for security reasons) to be able to prove you saw someone, or at least allow FCC to identify and verify the story with that RPI. Any RPI that has been helpful should happily do this, as there would be no reason not to. (They should ALL do it, but some RPIs do like to ignore the rules and try to be unidentifiable, not wearing their badge etc).

Of course you shouldn't always have to get proof, but as said above, many people will make up that they were given permission by 'someone on the platform' and so a lot of people will find some claims hard to believe.

 

[philjo]

Out of interest, when an RPI checks someone's Oystercard, is this event logged on the card (or on the RPI's reader) so it can be seen what time a card was inspected (& by whom) ?

 

[yorkie]

Thanks for the advice everyone. What's a Byelaw 18.1?

I have given you access to our Fares & Ticketing Guide, you may find section 10 - Disputes helpful.

...Offences under the Regulation of Railways Act result are recordable offences and a conviction will be disclosed if a CRB check (Standard or Enhanced) is performed.

Offences under the Railway Byelaws are not recordable offences and a conviction should not be disclosed if a CRB check (Standard or Enhanced) is performed....

So a prosecution under Railway Byelaws is a far less serious matter than a prosecution under the RoRA.

Regarding the £20 you were asked to pay, that is a Penalty Fare, which is a higher than normal fare made for a passenger who is considered to be making an honest mistake, under certain circumstances, by an authorised collector. Not all rail staff are authorised collectors, but revenue inspection officers/inspectors (RPI/RPOs) for First Capital Connect are.

In this case, you were liable to a Penalty Fare, however the first inspector showed discretion and did not charge the Penalty Fare. However the second RPI you encountered clearly did not show discretion and didn't believe you that you had previously encountered an RPI, and levied the Penalty Fare, which they are allowed to do for an honest mistake, in accordance with the Penalty Fare rules.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Out of interest, when an RPI checks someone's Oystercard, is this event logged on the card (or on the RPI's reader) so it can be seen what time a card was inspected (& by whom) ?

I very much doubt it. But some rail staff on this forum have Oyster readers, and could confirm.

I've never had my Oyster card checked by an on-duty RPI, but I have had a visual check by guards, and I have had my Oyster card read by a forum member. They can look quite far back at your journey history (I can't remember how many journeys).

 

[Cupcakequeen]

That all makes sense, thank you.

Can anyone tell me - if I do appeal it, do I still get the chance to pay the £55.70 if they decide my appeal is unsuccessful? Or could they decide on receiving and rejecting my appeal to take me to court without giving me another opportunity to pay the £55.70?

 

[maniacmartin]

If you want to be safe, pay the £55.70, and then launch the appeal. In the unlikely event they find in your favour, you would get the money back

 

[island]

That all makes sense, thank you.

Can anyone tell me - if I do appeal it, do I still get the chance to pay the £55.70 if they decide my appeal is unsuccessful? Or could they decide on receiving and rejecting my appeal to take me to court without giving me another opportunity to pay the £55.70?

You do not have any further right to "appeal". You can write to FCC asking they reconsider, but they are under no obligation to entertain your request and could just take you to court.

Consider sending a letter with two cheques, one for £20 and one for £35.70, explaining that you are offering to pay the £55.70 but given the circumstances, being allowed to proceed by another RPI, etc. etc., you would be grateful if they would consider accepting just the normal £20 penalty fare on this occasion.

 

[Monty]

Out of interest, when an RPI checks someone's Oystercard, is this event logged on the card (or on the RPI's reader) so it can be seen what time a card was inspected (& by whom) ?

Short answer, no. The the handheld readers are very basic and can only display a select amount of previous journeys made (including the current one) plus what type of ticket is loaded on to the oystercard be it pre-paid credit or a zonal ticket.

You can get a more comprehensive read out from TfL however it will not show if you oystercard had been inspected using a 'handy 440' reader.

 

[benk1342]

Out of interest, when an RPI checks someone's Oystercard, is this event logged on the card (or on the RPI's reader) so it can be seen what time a card was inspected (& by whom) ?

My recollection is that the handheld readers retain the most recent 10 scans.