First class on London Bridge to Guildford services

[infobleep]

I boarded the 19:28 Sutton to Guildford service tonight. Historically the services to Guildford were standard class's regardless of whether first class rolling stock was used.

I then tired to find out if this had changed with the timetable changes

I went onto Southern Web Site and that directed me to the Rail 2020 Web Site. Unfortunately the timetables on there don't list whether a train has first class or not.

So I sat in first class but attempted to find the Great Britain timetable PDF book. Instead I came across the print your own pocket timetables. http://ojp.nationalrail.co.uk/service/pockettimetable/search

Through using that on National Rail Enquiries I saw that in fact the 19:28 is shown as having first class. Thus I moved out of the carriage.

Is this correct? I know the fact they are shown as Thameslink services is wrong so I am wondering if this too is wrong?

I don't want to sit their if a standard class ticket isn't valid but equally if it is then I will simply because it has a plug socket, so why not. Standard class on this train doesn't have a plug socket.

Does this mean all Guildford trains now have first class carriages?

Updateb Using the National Rail Enquiries App it would appear Sutton to Guildford has no first class fares avilable.

 

[43055]

Real-time trains shows the service haveing first and standard class. If I remember correctly the rear first class section is declassified on all Thamslink services.

 

[cactustwirly]

Real-time trains shows the service haveing first and standard class. If I remember correctly the rear first class section is declassified on all Thamslink services.

It isn't a 'Thameslink' service, it's a 'Southern' service instead.

 

[43055]

It isn't a 'Thameslink' service, it's a 'Southern' service instead.

Ok. So why would it be down as a Thameslink service in RTT? http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W60955/2018/06/15/advanced

 

[swt_passenger]

Ok. So why would it be down as a Thameslink service in RTT? http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W60955/2018/06/15/advanced

Because there was an error inputtting the data for the May timetable, which hasn’t been put right, it was explained a few weeks back.

 

[tsr]

Definitely a Southern service. 10 coach Class 377 formation. Worked by Southern crew throughout.

If it’s shown in the timetable, First Class may well be enforced once the conductors get wind of it... (this sort of info is easily obtained, of course, but rather stupidly not printed on crew diagrams, so it takes a while for info to trickle through!).

 

[infobleep]

Thanks everyone for your replies. I definitely won't be sitting in there in future, well not without a first class ticket and as such a ticket doesn't exist for the stations I was travelling between, it means I won't be sitting in their full stop.

I'm surprised this wasn't more widely advertised, given previously the services were only standard class before this timetable change. I guess it wasn't seen as important, given the windows all state first class on them.

People are more likely to think it's first class than not. Still you will get the odd person who knew it was standard class but unlike myself, didn't actually check the new timetable.

That does mean that some small stations along the Guildford to London Bridge route now get first class, e. g. Bookham. I doubt they have any first class fares to London though.

I wonder what the patronage of first class ticket holders along this route is like? I wonder how many of the stations actually offer first class fares to London? I might look this up sometime.

I wonder if first class would be popular on the South Western Railway services via Epsom? They aren't planning to run any trains with first class though. I have felt that first class might be popular on the Cobham route, given the cost of housing in those parts. Southern branded trains don't run along that route.

As for crew diagrams on stating the classes on the train, is that a standard thing across the rail industry or unique to Govia Thamealink Railway?

 

[Bikeman78]

Definitely a Southern service. 10 coach Class 377 formation. Worked by Southern crew throughout.

If it’s shown in the timetable, First Class may well be enforced once the conductors get wind of it... (this sort of info is easily obtained, of course, but rather stupidly not printed on crew diagrams, so it takes a while for info to trickle through!).

This is clearly a mistake. All the xx25 and xx55 from London Bridge to Epsom or beyond are shown having first class. The return workings from Epsom at xx15 and xx45 using exactly the same rolling stock are standard only. Units with first class have worked suburban routes for as long as I can remember and the first class has always been declassified. Doesn't make much difference on a 377. It's only a bit of paper on the headrest.

 

[infobleep]

This is clearly a mistake. All the xx25 and xx55 from London Bridge to Epsom or beyond are shown having first class. The return workings from Epsom at xx15 and xx45 using exactly the same rolling stock are standard only. Units with first class have worked suburban routes for as long as I can remember and the first class has always been declassified. Doesn't make much difference on a 377. It's only a bit of paper on the headrest.

I'm not prepared to rail it myself, just in case.vi don't want the hassle. Of course I don't know what rolling stock is being used for all the trains. What if some of them claim to be first class but the rolling stock destiny contain it?

 

[Bikeman78]

I'm not prepared to rail it myself, just in case.vi don't want the hassle. Of course I don't know what rolling stock is being used for all the trains. What if some of them claim to be first class but the rolling stock destiny contain it?

The 10 car formations are a mix of 3+3+4 cars or 5+5 cars. The Epsom and Guildford trains are the former. Do the five car 377/6 and 377/7 even have first class? If you have a first class ticket and a train turns up standard only when it should have first then you can claim a refund of the price difference. Thameslink did it all the time. Quite normal to see pairs of 319/0 or 319/3 on the Brighton line.

 

[tsr]

All 377 units have First Class (possibly with the temporary exception of one of the 377/3 fleet, which I believe is an odd one out). Southern’s Guildford services are not generally permitted to be operated by anything other than 377 stock now. The chances of stock without First turning up are very very slim indeed.

As I understand it, it’s not a mistake and it’s pretty much universally advertised as a service with First Class now. First Class fares are now available for quite a number of flows en-route, although it seems the smartcard versions have been created before the paper versions in some cases, which is odd.

The service does have demand for it, and it’s long enough in duration that a guaranteed seat can be worth paying for. If it doesn’t get enforced it will be down to fluke more than anything.

 

[infobleep]

All 377 units have First Class (possibly with the temporary exception of one of the 377/3 fleet, which I believe is an odd one out). Southern’s Guildford services are not generally permitted to be operated by anything other than 377 stock now. The chances of stock without First turning up are very very slim indeed.

As I understand it, it’s not a mistake and it’s pretty much universally advertised as a service with First Class now. First Class fares are now available for quite a number of flows en-route, although it seems the smartcard versions have been created before the paper versions in some cases, which is odd.

The service does have demand for it, and it’s long enough in duration that a guaranteed seat can be worth paying for. If it doesn’t get enforced it will be down to fluke more than anything.

Thank you for confirming that. It certainly caught me out at first.

Prior to this timetable change only one or two devices used irst class rolling stock.

If their is demand for yesterday class, surely South Western Railway would also have a demand. In fact I am surprised they aren't proposing rolling stock with first class. It's a separate debate.

 

[swt_passenger]

All a bit academic, didn’t someone post that SN won’t be serving Guildford after the next timetable change? By the time this all settles down and everyone knows about first class fares or first accommodation there’ll be no trains...

 

[infobleep]

All a bit academic, didn’t someone post that SN won’t be serving Guildford after the next timetable change? By the time this all settles down and everyone knows about first class fares or first accommodation there’ll be no trains...

I had thought this was the next timetable change. Certainly a major one.

Seems odd if they will stop serving Guilldford at the next South Western Railway timetable change, given the times they currently run the trains from Guilldford don't always plug the gaps from Guildford when South Western Railway are not running trains. 7.12 is in lue of the 7.28 but the 6.39 is most definitely not in lue of the 8.28.

In the evening after the 17:58 leaves the next one is at 19:03.

There are now two trains in the morning from Guildford but only 1 to Guildford. Two in the evening to Guildford but only 1 returning from Guilldford. It use to be 2 in both directions in the morning and evening, so 8 passenger services in tot Perhaps the guard has their personal break now on the trains that don't run back in passenger service.

 

[Bikeman78]

All 377 units have First Class (possibly with the temporary exception of one of the 377/3 fleet, which I believe is an odd one out). Southern’s Guildford services are not generally permitted to be operated by anything other than 377 stock now. The chances of stock without First turning up are very very slim indeed.

As I understand it, it’s not a mistake and it’s pretty much universally advertised as a service with First Class now. First Class fares are now available for quite a number of flows en-route, although it seems the smartcard versions have been created before the paper versions in some cases, which is odd.

The service does have demand for it, and it’s long enough in duration that a guaranteed seat can be worth paying for. If it doesn’t get enforced it will be down to fluke more than anything.

That doesn't explain why all the London Bridge to Epsom trains are first+standard but all the return workings are standard only. In fact the morning Guildford to London Bridge trains are shown standard only.

 

[swt_passenger]

I had thought this was the next timetable change. Certainly a major one.
Seems odd if they will stop serving Guilldford at the next South Western Railway timetable change, given the times they currently run the trains from Guilldford don't always plug the gaps from Guildford when South Western Railway are not running trains. 7.12 is in lue of the 7.28 but the 6.39 is most definitely not in lue of the 8.28.

This was Southern's major change, but there are more yet to come for Southern. SWR's is supposedly December 2018.

Is there any evidence that Southern's existing trains are there to 'plug gaps' in SWT or now SWR's service pattern? It might look like it is, but it may not be the real purpose. I don't think there's been a new timetable published for that route by SWR yet has there?

 

[TEW]

The SN services did in the past plug gaps in the SWT service provision from Epsom to Guildford, with some SWT services terminating at Effingham Junction. I imagine it is more a case of SWT services terminating at Effingham Junction to accommodate SN services at Guildford rather than SN plugging the gaps in the SWT service though. With the May 2018 timetable changes though, the new SN services do Guildford no longer match up well with the gaps in the SWR service. The consultation timetables for December 2018 had no SWR services terminating at Effingham Junction, with 2tph Guildford-Waterloo via Epsom all day. In the morning peak only this was enhanced to 4tph towards London Waterloo. SN services were not shown in the consultation timetables.

 

[tsr]

There are definitely rumours that the Guildford services will divert to Dorking from December.

However, this does depend on what value the DfT et al place on the through service, which obviously includes links to places like Croydon rather than just London Bridge itself. There has to be a reason these services have stayed on as long as they have.

It does seem that some, if not all, the Southern services to/from Guildford are actually now fairly well-used in their new incarnations. The 0639 off Guildford is picking up a fair number of people from Clandon - Bookham some days. By contrast it is less well used from Leatherhead onwards.

By all accounts, the number of reports of antisocial behaviour has nosedived now that the first Sutton-Guildford service has been withdrawn.

 

[swt_passenger]

I imagine it is more a case of SWT services terminating at Effingham Junction to accommodate SN services at Guildford rather than SN plugging the gaps in the SWT service though.

A chicken and egg situation. Filling gaps left by, or leaving gaps to allow for...

Back in 2004, IIRC, the normal pattern included a 2 tph SWT Guildford to West Croydon via Sutton service. Perhaps this is just the end of a long lingering death of that service, albeit now delegated to Southern...

 

[TEW]

I believe the SN services existed at the same time as the SWT Guildford-West Croydon services, which were 2tph, but only Off Peak. During the peaks a Guildford-Waterloo via Epsom service was operated as per now. As tsr alluded to above, there is a reason that these, what may appear very odd, services have continued for so long, and that's because people do use them.

 

[infobleep]

I got on a Guildford to London Bridge service today and decided why not see if first class is declassified. Highly unlikely but it is. Not only that, it's also the case from May timetable change too.

So it must have reverted back last December timetable change.

Anyone know why? Did they not have enough first class sales for these services? For some journeys a first class ticket wasn't even possible unless they got South Western Railway to add in a first class ticket, as they controlled the fares.

I'm rather surprised it's reverted back. However I was surprised it went to first class in the first place. Just as I was surprised the Guildford to Ascot services introduced first class. I wouldn't imagine there was demand, after people had got use to there not being any first class during the train upgarde program. That line still retains it's first class though, so must be some benefit to South Western Railway reintroducing it and retaining it.

Not sure about this service though

 

[Bald Rick]

Anyone know why?

Perhaps someone read this thread

 

[infobleep]

Perhaps someone read this thread

Actually I've read my first post and I was talking about the 19:28. That's an evening service.

John Clausen said the morning services were standard class. However TSR said there was demand for first class on this route.

Downloading the timetable however I see no first class even on the evening trains.

I had no objections to there being first class, as long as I am not sat in it with a standard class ticket, thinking it is declassified when it's not.

 

[Deepgreen]

What a nonsense this all is - the supposed introduction of first class on a route that has previously generally been standard only, and with no publicity to accompany it. Are prospective first class passengers really expected to root through interminable (and often wrong) sources of 'insider knowledge' to find out?! A typical Southern mess - they couldn't even be bothered to mark their 377/6s and 377/7s properly for years before they caved in and applied the required markings. What is the logic of a supposed demand for first class via Epsom on Southern but not on SWR? More confusion and inconsistency for passengers (and staff!).

 

[infobleep]

What a nonsense this all is - the supposed introduction of first class on a route that has previously generally been standard only, and with no publicity to accompany it. Are prospective first class passengers really expected to root through interminable (and often wrong) sources of 'insider knowledge' to find out?! A typical Southern mess - they couldn't even be bothered to mark their 377/6s and 377/7s properly for years before they caved in and applied the required markings. What is the logic of a supposed demand for first class via Epsom on Southern but not on SWR? More confusion and inconsistency for passengers (and staff!).

Well obviously no demand or not enough as they reversed the decision it seems.

 

[Bikeman78]

Well obviously no demand or not enough as they reversed the decision it seems.

So far as I'm aware there has never been any intention of providing first class on Southern Metro routes formerly worked by EPB or 455 units. If you look in realtime trains, all trains from London Bridge to Epsom have first class but the exact same trains in the opposite direction are standard only. One of the down trains in the evening is worked by 455s so it's clearly a cock up.

 

[infobleep]

So far as I'm aware there has never been any intention of providing first class on Southern Metro routes formerly worked by EPB or 455 units. If you look in realtime trains, all trains from London Bridge to Epsom have first class but the exact same trains in the opposite direction are standard only. One of the down trains in the evening is worked by 455s so it's clearly a cock up.

It is interesting to note that once the timetables were produced, they weren't amended. For example some of the services were listed as Thameslink and this lasted until the timetable change.

Perhaps there wasn't the staff avilable to change it back. It was after all occurring during the new timetable problems, which were far more critical and important than what was printed in timetable booklet.

Still as the timetable said it was first class and the train from Guildford used rolling stock containing first class, I wasn't going to sit in it on a standard class ticket.

 

[Wombat]

Sorry to bump an old-ish thread, but I am confused and baffled. I have two questions:

a) Am I allowed to sit in a first-class seat between Epsom and Victoria, and Epsom and London Bridge, with a standard ticket?
b) If the answer to the previous question is "Yes", how would I know without the collective wisdom of this forum? Is it stated in any passenger-facing information that I can quote if challenged?

 

[30907]

Sorry to bump an old-ish thread, but I am confused and baffled. I have two questions:

a) Am I allowed to sit in a first-class seat between Epsom and Victoria, and Epsom and London Bridge, with a standard ticket?
b) If the answer to the previous question is "Yes", how would I know without the collective wisdom of this forum? Is it stated in any passenger-facing information that I can quote if challenged?

The train company's published info (planner, printed timetable or PDF timetable) states whether or not a train conveys first class. That should be sufficient.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

A chicken and egg situation. Filling gaps left by, or leaving gaps to allow for...

Back in 2004, IIRC, the normal pattern included a 2 tph SWT Guildford to West Croydon via Sutton service. Perhaps this is just the end of a long lingering death of that service, albeit now delegated to Southern...

I suspect that is the case , sort of specification inertia. Worth mentioning that the Guildford - West Croydon service was itself the remains of a Thameslink service from north of the river , terribly used and the rsources were diverted to give more trains to the Brighton Main line.

You can tell my age when you can remember these things. !