First class on standard travel card

[TechMonkey]

Just after an idea as to what happens if have a valid travel card but sit in first class?

No sob stories here so won't bother with my reason / excuse.

The revenue protection officer simply wrote down my travel card number, name, address and date of birth. Left me with a card with time and his number and moved on.

Very little was said. No caution or statement. Just that I would get a letter

Never had one before or penalties etc, so what are the odds of them accepting a financial penalty as a criminal record would literally destroy me and my work?

Train was a South western railway one to Waterloo. The card he gave me still says South West trains on it !

 

[James Wake]

Can you confirm what train you were on, as some SWR services are declassified, no first class provision but there are first class seats that are open to all ticket holders.

 

[TechMonkey]

It was on the Surbiton to Waterloo service

 

[James Wake]

some do, some don’t on that line, what time Service was it?

 

[JN114]

Can you confirm what train you were on, as some SWR services are declassified, no first class provision but there are first class seats that are open to all ticket holders.

Have you got a source for “some SWR services are declassified” - I can’t find any such literature on their website.

Note that while it is commonly accepted that it being shown in the WTT as Standard Only “declassifies” any First Class accommodation on the train; there is nothing written that I’ve ever found to back up that stance in a dispute and thus I would caution anyone who intends to use that as a defense.

 

[James Wake]

In the printed timetables which are on their website and in paper format. Notable declassified trains are Waterloo-Windsor and Waterloo to Hounslow and Weybridge services, which can run with 450s, 455s, 458s and 707s. The 450s and 458s have first class seats for when they run on other routes.

 

[Sleeper]

In the printed timetables which are on their website and in paper format. Notable declassified trains are Waterloo-Windsor and Waterloo to Hounslow and Weybridge services, which can run with 450s, 455s, 458s and 707s. The 450s and 458s have first class seats for when they run on other routes.

I recognise this description. I have always taken the deciding point as whether the train in question is shown in the public timetable (GBTT/TOC's timetable/TOC's posters) with or without the "1" symbol at the top of the column. If the "1" symbol is present then the train conveys First Class accommodation.

But from that information alone you cannot logically deduce that absence of the symbol means that any accommodation marked up as First Class is declassified, and therefore that passengers with Standard Class tickets may ride in that part of the train so marked.

Can anyone say where this additional and necessary information is written down, accessible by the public?

Meanwhile, this seems like another case of the railway gotcha syndrome. You get to hear that accommodation marked First can be used with Standard tickets. You use the accommodation time and again with no problem, notwithstanding ticket checks maybe. Then one day an RPI comes along and you're up on a charge, potentially facing court.

The RPI may be correct, or maybe incorrect. But it seems you've a difficult job to demonstrate you're in the clear. This all the more so if some 'First' accommodation on the train is declassified and some of it isn't.

 

[James Wake]

I recognise this description. I have always taken the deciding point as whether the train in question is shown in the public timetable (GBTT/TOC's timetable/TOC's posters) with or without the "1" symbol at the top of the column. If the "1" symbol is present then the train conveys First Class accommodation.

But from that information alone you cannot logically deduce that absence of the symbol means that any accommodation marked up as First Class is declassified, and therefore that passengers with Standard Class tickets may ride in that part of the train so marked.

Can anyone say where this additional and necessary information is written down, accessible by the public?

Meanwhile, this seems like another case of the railway gotcha syndrome. You get to hear that accommodation marked First can be used with Standard tickets. You use the accommodation time and again with no problem, notwithstanding ticket checks maybe. Then one day an RPI comes along and you're up on a charge, potentially facing court.

The RPI may be correct, or maybe incorrect. But it seems you've a difficult job to demonstrate you're in the clear. This all the more so if some 'First' accommodation on the train is declassified and some of it isn't.

That is what I have always been told, I normally have a copy of the timetable available just in case of problems. If a train has a "1" at the top of the column, or if there is a note like on some timetables that says "All trains that serve this route convey both standard and first class accommodation" then of course I won't sit in first class, I'm not taking any risks.

Anyway, I'm still waiting for the OP to confirm the time of the train he/she took from Surbiton to Waterloo, however my hunch is its one from Alton or Basingstoke that do have first class accommodation.

 

[JN114]

I’m aware that they do advertise which trains are and are not meant to carry First Class. The question I asked is where is the supporting evidence that the presence - or not - of that little “1” in the printed or other source timetable declassifies any provided First Class accommodation on a train not advertised to carry any.

Again; I submit it is a widely held belief that that is the case - both by passengers and train crew. But every single time this matter is bought up not one piece of supporting evidence is ever brought forward. “Everyone else does it” is not a valid defense for this kind of offence in a court situation.

This particular mass assumption is one of my biggest pet peeves; and I have previously voiced my frustration that it forms part of the official “advice” on this forum without anything to actually back it up. As far as I understand the rules as they are written - Any First Class accommodation on any route is only for the use of First Class ticket holders unless explicitly declassified by an authorised person or notice.

 

[GW43125]

That is what I have always been told, I normally have a copy of the timetable available just in case of problems. If a train has a "1" at the top of the column, or if there is a note like on some timetables that says "All trains that serve this route convey both standard and first class accommodation" then of course I won't sit in first class, I'm not taking any risks.

I appreciate that again the "everyone does it" stance doesn't hold any water but I commute on the Weybridge line which does not advertise first class accommodation and I sit there on a standard ticket all the time. Guards are perfectly happy with it.

On a side note, maybe it's best if the mods could maybe create a thread about the declassification or lack thereof in a different area and move these posts?

 

[furlong]

I've not checked the current version, but the formal argument used to be that the National Rail Timetable stated "All services shown in this Timetable convey Standard Accommodation only unless otherwise shown".

 

[James Wake]

I appreciate that again the "everyone does it" stance doesn't hold any water but I commute on the Weybridge line which does not advertise first class accommodation and I sit there on a standard ticket all the time. Guards are perfectly happy with it.

On a side note, maybe it's best if the mods could maybe create a thread about the declassification or lack thereof in a different area and move these posts?

I agree, that would be useful if this is split into a different thread.

 

[Starmill]

At least it isn't as bad as Northern where there is First Class in the NRT but not in their own timetable:



How are people who might want to buy First Class tickets supposed to know?

 

[Essan]

Meanwhile no-one is actually answering the OPs question? I know others here will know what is likely to happen, based on the assumption that they were wrongly sitting in 1st class with a standard class ticket and I am sure thats what the OP wants to hear? Not which trains may or may not have declassifed 1st class coaches

 

[Starmill]

Surely this is obvious from the other areas on the forum.

If the OP travelled from Surbiton to London Waterloo on a train with first class (which they may or may not have) and they had a standard class ticket, they may:
- have to buy a new ticket for £10.60
- have to pay a Penalty Fare of £21.20
- be prosecuted

What else is there to say..?

The OP has given almost no information to determine this.

 

[TechMonkey]

Sorry for taking a while to get back to give more information, thought I had put enough in first post but going to clear up what happened a bit.

I thought I gave enough information with "The revenue protection officer simply wrote down my travel card number, name, address and date of birth. Left me with a card with time and his number and moved on." No requests for payment or anything were made

The train is listed as first etc etc, so that part isn't really important.

I was under impression would have probably been penalty fared or at least pay for the new ticket at a full price. Instead all happened was my details were taken, and stated I'd receive a letter. He gave no other information, no caution or further questions or anything

 

[TechMonkey]

Would a prosecution for a first time of ever having anything like this happen be likely, or a request for a fine of some kind?

The station is in a penalty fare area and the leaflet at the station only refers to penalty fares, but this wasn't offered, just straight to writing down the details.

 

[JN114]

Prosecution is always an option when a ticketing offence is committed - offenders don’t have any automatic right to a Penalty Fare if it’s a penalty fare area.

Wait for the letter to arrive; then we can go from there.