First class standards worsening on new trains

[InterCity:125]

I have noticed the standards of first class gradually worsening. For instance here is the first class on GWR HSTs:

Vs the ‘superior’ new class 800s:

Is this something anyone else has noticed? How is it with other TOCs?

 

[1e10]

It looks fine?

 

[SwindonBert]

I'm going to miss the GWR 1st class on HSTs, what do you think is wrong with it?

 

[greyman42]

I'm going to miss the GWR 1st class on HSTs, what do you think is wrong with it?

There is nothing wrong with the HST first class. It is the first class in the 'superior' 800 that is getting criticised, and rightly so.

 

[MrCub]

Old news done to death. Old rolling stock = lovely, comfort, sophisticated etc. New stock = backward, uncomfortable, crap.

Next.

 

[greyman42]

I have noticed the standards of first class gradually worsening. For instance here is the first class on GWR HSTs:
View attachment 50675
Vs the new class 800s:
View attachment 50676
Is this something anyone else has noticed? How is it with other TOCs?

First class on commuter services for London is hardly any better than standard on the newer trains. When class 800s replace class 91 and HSTs you will have the same inferior coach. The refurbished first class on TPE 185s are better than the previous offering, and Chiltern LHDS is good as well.

 

[Jonfun]

I have noticed the standards of first class gradually worsening. For instance here is the first class on GWR HSTs:
View attachment 50675
Vs the ‘superior’ new class 800s:
View attachment 50676
Is this something anyone else has noticed? How is it with other TOCs?

I have to ask, why is there half a table missing in the bottom picture? Is it a concept picture to show off the seat design or is the table actually that size?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Give me an 800 1st class any day .....(the good old HST's have had their day IMHO)

 

[InterCity:125]

I have to ask, why is there half a table missing in the bottom picture? Is it a concept picture to show off the seat design or is the table actually that size?

That might be disabled or it could be concept.

 

[causton]

I have to ask, why is there half a table missing in the bottom picture? Is it a concept picture to show off the seat design or is the table actually that size?

Here is the seating plan for what I assume is the carriage in question:



Because of the wheelchair space opposite I am guessing a full size table would not allow the wheelchair user to get to space number 44.

 

[Steddenm]

Having travelled on an 800 today in first between Cardiff and London I have to say that the first class has gone downhill again since the introduction of the IEPs/IETs.

Hardly and first class service - she remained in the kitchen for most of the journey (and I was the only one in the half coach). There is zero luggage space at all in the leading car. Seats are getting work already and the window blind not recliner worked.

 

[InterCity:125]

Having travelled on an 800 today in first between Cardiff and London I have to say that the first class has gone downhill again since the introduction of the IEPs/IETs.

Hardly and first class service - she remained in the kitchen for most of the journey (and I was the only one in the half coach). There is zero luggage space at all in the leading car. Seats are getting work already and the window blind not recliner worked.

The second class hst seats on GWR could compete with their first class on the iets

 

[Mugby]

Old news done to death. Old rolling stock = lovely, comfort, sophisticated etc. New stock = backward, uncomfortable, crap.

Next.

But what if it's true?

 

[superalbs]

Well I suppose that's what you get when you use the seat that Germany, Spain, Turkey, and Uzbekistan use in standard, for your first class offering, and then just make it all grey.

 

[bnm]

But what if it's true?

There can't be a 'truth'. Comparisons are subjective.

 

[SwindonBert]

There is nothing wrong with the HST first class. It is the first class in the 'superior' 800 that is getting criticised, and rightly so.

Ah, misread the original post..

 

[XCTurbostar]

This topic again.. I still want to know if this.. exists on the ‘new’ IETs..

 

[Steddenm]

This topic again.. I still want to know if this.. exists on the ‘new’ IETs..

Yup. That seat is there!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yup. That seat is there!

Has anyone actually managed to get into it?

 

[Mag_seven]

Is this something anyone else has noticed?

Yes - its what happens when you allow DfT to specify new rolling stock rather than the operator.

 

[47271]

Well, I've travelled in both First and Standard in GWR Class 800s and it's not so much that First doesn't compare well with that in the HSTs, it's more that for me it doesn't justify the difference in price on Standard. The seats are too hard and the wrong shape for me and, aside from there being (a bit) more room, there's really nothing to recommend it at all. Same harsh lighting, same grey colours everywhere, and not a great deal more in the way of full tables. It's up there with First Class on Scotrail 170s for me, the seats are the wrong shape on them for different reasons, and I never waste money on First on Scotrail.

Just to extend this comparison to GWR HSTs for a moment, in my view Standard on these trains offers a very poor and cramped environment with inadequate legroom and too many airline seats. First is a huge improvement on that, and generally worth paying for on that basis.

This has probably been discussed in other threads, but I'm genuinely intrigued as to the commercial decision making process here. Surely the purpose of First Class as far as the operator is concerned is to maximise yield through selling a more attractive product at a premium. If the premium product doesn't justify its price - especially the cheeky First Class prices asked by GWR - then people will soon stop buying it? I'm certainly not going to bother again.

 

[47271]

Yes - its what happens when you allow DfT to specify new rolling stock rather than the operator.

I suspected that, but surely even the DfT doesn't want to set up a situation where it limits the earning capacity of a long distance operator by underspecifying First Class interiors versus Standard.

I know that they're a dead hand on the industry generally, but a child of 12 could've told them that this was wasn't going to work. It isn't even as if they've increased capacity, they've just made it dreary and unappealing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes - its what happens when you allow DfT to specify new rolling stock rather than the operator.

It's also what you get when the manufacturer blindly follows the spec rather than pointing out issues for correction like that table (and often needing to be quite pushy that the customer is in fact wrong[1]). In IT that's the difference between a programmer and a consultant. I'm sure there is a railway equivalent.

[1] In IT I prefer "the customer's interests are paramount" over the classic line, as very often they are *not* right in basic terms.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I know that they're a dead hand on the industry generally, but a child of 12 could've told them that this was wasn't going to work. It isn't even as if they've increased capacity, they've just made it dreary and unappealing.

Much as I hate the Standard seats in the 800s, I'm yet to try the First Class ones but they look comfortable to me, and provided you brighten it up with some colour I don't mind the modern style as opposed to the old fashioned plush style of the HST 1st. My favourite UK 1st in comfort terms is the Pendolino and that's not much different?

 

[Fudgefrog]

Compare LNER/VTEC’s current first class vs the ‘Azuma’ first class and... Quite the downgrade.

New first class seat vs current first class

The current first class uses bold colours, but every seat is spacious, the seats are comfortable, and the build materials all feel of high quality. The above Azuma seat reminds me of first class on an unrefurbished Transpennine Express 185 - fabric over leather, not that different from standard, a colour scheme that looks dull and worn from new, and a generally unimpressive look.

 

[43096]

Yes - its what happens when you allow DfT to specify new rolling stock rather than the operator.

And the excuse for doing exactly the same in the 802s - GW procured rather than DfT - is what?

 

[Mag_seven]

And the excuse for doing exactly the same in the 802s - GW procured rather than DfT - is what?

You'll have to ask GWR that but I've yet to sample an 802 so don't know just yet how similar they are!

 

[InterCity:125]

When thameslink was take over by govia didn’t know how this could get any worse:

But govia found a way:

 

[Bletchleyite]

For a commuter train Class 319 First Class is really pretty good, not sure what your complaint is on that!

 

[InterCity:125]

For a commuter train Class 319 First Class is really pretty good, not sure what your complaint is on that!

It got worse since capital connect is my point. I’d wouldn’t enjoy those seats in standard let alone first. The mersyrail standard is as good as the thameslink first.