First class ticket, First Class in timetable, no 1st class on train

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dcd

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If you have a First class ticket and the timetable says First Class but there is no 1st class on train can you make a claim?
 
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If you have a First class ticket and the timetable says First Class but there is no 1st class on train can you make a claim?

Yes, you can claim the difference in the ticket price for the leg of the journey you are making. This is happening a lot a the moment on Scotrails Edinburgh - Glasgow route.
 

dcd

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Can I claim before I even travel?

I have bought a first Class ALR for July and tried to reserve a 1st class seats at my local booking office on the Inverness to Kyle of Lochalshe and return but only got standard seats. Tried booking a 1st class return ticket online but these are not offered.

See attached page from current timetable.
 

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TrainBoy98

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This problem happens with southern too as they have 313's on routes which are booked to have first class. also, they are booked on 1hr 30min journeys without toilets
 

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Can I claim before I even travel?

I have bought a first Class ALR for July and tried to reserve a 1st class seats on the Inverness to Kyle of Lochalshe and return but only got standard seats. Tried booking a 1st class return ticket but these are not offered.

See attached page from current timetable.

That is an interesting mistake in the NRT and even the online version shows the train as first class. What is worse is that when you get on the train it will have a declassified first class section. :roll: However in reality you have had a lucky escape, all you would get different is a cup of tea and a biscuit.

Others with greater expertise will comment about the refund for the rover. I doubt it as you can use other trains with 1st class should you want to the same day.
 

dcd

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That is an interesting mistake in the NRT and even the online version shows the train as first class. What is worse is that when you get on the train it will have a declassified first class section. :roll: However in reality you have had a lucky escape, all you would get different is a cup of tea and a biscuit.

Others with greater expertise will comment about the refund for the rover. I doubt it as you can use other trains with 1st class should you want to the same day.

Why a lucky escape are the biscuits that bad?
Do you mean I could go somewhere else as Red Spotted Hanky do not offer any 1st class tickets on any train that day to Kyle of Lochalshe.


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ainsworth74

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Yes, you can claim the difference in the ticket price for the leg of the journey you are making. This is happening a lot a the moment on Scotrails Edinburgh - Glasgow route.

How would this work on, for example, a first advance ticket from Glasgow to Darlington Route: EC & Connections what fares do you use to work out the difference?
 

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No first class on services north of Inverness (even though you may find 1st on the train it will be declassified). I do not think you will get any refund as Scotrail advertise no 1st on that route.

You could always try the Royal-Scotsman for an enhanced journey opportunity?
 

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Why a lucky escape are the biscuits that bad?
Do you mean I could go somewhere else as Red Spotted Hanky do not offer any 1st class tickets on any train that day to Kyle of Lochalshe.


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I mean by lucky escape it is not worth the premium. The seats on the 158s that operate the route are exactly the same. They are not really separated from the rest of the train and you could buy a lot of tea and biscuits from the trolley with the money you save. The last time in did Perth - Inverness on a 158 (solo) there was a higher density in 1st (no spare seats) to standard (about half full) so in that case you got less space but refreshments.

I took a look at Scotrails site, who operate the route, they don't even price first class tickets. No idea why when all the trains on that route have the 1st class section.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
How would this work on, for example, a first advance ticket from Glasgow to Darlington Route: EC & Connections what fares do you use to work out the difference?

In that case you would get nothing, as you got 1st class for part of your journey. Yesterday they even said, 1st class passengers may wish to wait for the next service :)
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
No first class on services north of Inverness (even though you may find 1st on the train it will be declassified). I do not think you will get any refund as Scotrail advertise no 1st on that route.

You could always try the Royal-Scotsman for an enhanced journey opportunity?

Not by scotrail, but for some reason the national rail timetable does.
 

reb0118

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I took a look at ScotRail,s site, who operate the route, they don't even price first class tickets. No idea why when all the trains on that route have the 1st class

Not by ScotRail, but for some reason the national rail timetable does.


Yes, noticed that from screen shot. Now from a passenger's point of view this is confusing to say the least. There are, in theory, many ways to resolve this but how can you refund the difference in fare between 1st & STD when there is NO difference because there is no 1st class fare?

Who should compensate? Who has made the error? National Rail i.e. ATOC or ScotRail?

I'd advise the pax to arrive early & bag one off the declassified 1st seats.
 

ainsworth74

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In that case you would get nothing, as you got 1st class for part of your journey. Yesterday they even said, 1st class passengers may wish to wait for the next service

Okay that seems reasonable enough. But, a follow up if I may, the NRCoC say that:

38. Travelling in standard class accommodation with a first class ticket

If you have a first class ticket (or the equivalent) and the first class accommodation (or the equivalent) shown in the National Rail Timetable is not available in any train you travel in, you may claim a refund of the difference in price between the first class and the standard class ticket for the relevant part of your journey.

With specific reference to the bits I've bolded, by my reading that would suggest that if one part of the journey does not offer first class where it is supposed to you can claim compensation? Or is my reading comprehension off?
 

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But I have already paid the premium as I have a 1st ALR already.


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I know, but I guess you will also use that premium for travelling to / from Scotland and maybe even other journeys such as Aberdeen - Inverness. I one respect you would be no worse off if the timetable said standard only, unless you are not going to take advantage of 1st at all.
 

sonic2009

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In my opinion if you have bought a 1st class ALR then you would not be entitled to a refund on the fact of :

1. You will use it on other operators
2. Rolling stock changes can happen at any time
3. A majority of the UK network does not offer 1st accomadation.

But it may be worth writing to the TOC concerned if this was to happen.

For example : your plan involves a 1st class journey from Edinburgh - Glasgow, and it does not offer 1st only STD.

You could submit a letter to the TOC i.e Scotrail and they may offer the difference between a Std single and 1st single.



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RJ

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Impressive, he got over 1/3 of his ALR back from compo claims.

If the aim of the game was to get as much back as possible, then he didn't do very well :p. I should have complained to Grand Central about the abhorrent state of their FC on the 180 I had between York and London. 10:25 service I think, it was crowded, dirty (litter all over every table,) the power points weren't working, the seats were tatty and faded, there was no hot food offering due to a failure of some onboard equipment and the host was a miserable so and so who was concealing options like the fruit juice.

Don't even get me started on East Coast and the breakfast service experience I had out of King's Cross <(
 
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I am sure if you used ECML in the winter, you could get you ticket for free. Saying that if i am track bashing, in don't want 3 hour delays!
 

34D

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If the aim of the game was to get as much back as possible, then he didn't do very well :p. I should have complained to Grand Central about the abhorrent state of their FC on the 180 I had between York and London. 10:25 service I think, it was crowded, dirty (litter all over every table,) the power points weren't working, the seats were tatty and faded, there was no hot food offering due to a failure of some onboard equipment and the host was a miserable so and so who was concealing options like the fruit juice.

This is most at odds with my own experiences of GC in both first and standard.
 

bb21

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But I have already paid the premium as I have a 1st ALR already.

In the list of Q&As that come with a BritRail pass, it was specifically stated that the pricing of the First Class version of the pass has already taken into account the fact that some trains do not convey First Class accommodation. I would expect it to be the same with an ALR.

That said, this now boils down to the question as to whether the non-availability of the incorrectly advertised First Class accommodation is subject to compensation claims. I am afraid that we probably would not be able to tell you the answer. You might have to ask ScotRail.
 

Scotrail84

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Yes, you can claim the difference in the ticket price for the leg of the journey you are making. This is happening a lot a the moment on Scotrails Edinburgh - Glasgow route.

To be fair it's not happening a lot. At least one of the turbos have a 1st class section on them at peak times and during the day nearly all EDB-GLQ services have 1st class, except when a failure occurs a suburban turbo may be utilised to fill in for the failure.
 

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To be fair it's not happening a lot. At least one of the turbos have a 1st class section on them at peak times and during the day nearly all EDB-GLQ services have 1st class, except when a failure occurs a suburban turbo may be utilised to fill in for the failure.

I may be "unlucky" using the quotes as I am a standard class holder so the extra seats is a benefit, but it has personally in the last 2 weeks. Just twice when a 6 car train has had none at all (but in the same week) but very frequently when a 3 car set has had none. But I know that is the risk that happens say if the 1715 service is a suburban + normal. When it splits for the 1815 you have a 50 / 50 chance it will be standard only.
 

Scotrail84

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I may be "unlucky" using the quotes as I am a standard class holder so the extra seats is a benefit, but it has personally in the last 2 weeks. Just twice when a 6 car train has had none at all (but in the same week) but very frequently when a 3 car set has had none. But I know that is the risk that happens say if the 1715 service is a suburban + normal. When it splits for the 1815 you have a 50 / 50 chance it will be standard only.

A while back scotrail came to the conclusion that 1st class was not getting used by as many passengers so they decided that if 1 turbo in a 6 car formation had 1st class then that would be sufficient. It's rare to see 2x suburban turbos as a 6 car during the peak on the E and G although it does happen. If only one of the units have 1st then as you say the problem arises when the units split to form other E and G services. What I can't understand is why they run turbos to Thornton, Cowdenbeath and fife circles with 1st class sections on them as these routes are std class only.
 

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That is exactly what I was wondering the other week, the 1645 Glasgow - Edinburgh was 2x 1704xx. Still in orange. The 1651 Cumbernauld was 170430. Of course you could do nothing about this once the diagram was created. The 1645 comes from Edinburgh as 6 car and there is no way you can shuffle this around. But as you say you do get a lot of the "express" units on suburban workings. However I know many of the Dunblane diagrams also interwork with E&G

Now the E&G now only have on trolley per service, it as long as one set has 1st no-one will care (as long as that is the set with the trolley ;) ).

I have noticed that once Linlithgow / Croy passengers seem to declassify 1st anyway as the know no-one will challenge them anyway. It amuses me if the gaurd changes sets at these points.
 

Scotrail84

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That is exactly what I was wondering the other week, the 1645 Glasgow - Edinburgh was 2x 1704xx. Still in orange. [/B]The 1651 Cumbernauld was 170430. Of course you could do nothing about this once the diagram was created. The 1645 comes from Edinburgh as 6 car and there is no way you can shuffle this around. But as you say you do get a lot of the "express" units on suburban workings. However I know many of the Dunblane diagrams also interwork with E&G

Now the E&G now only have on trolley per service, it as long as one set has 1st no-one will care (as long as that is the set with the trolley ;) ).

I have noticed that once Linlithgow / Croy passengers seem to declassify 1st anyway as the know no-one will challenge them anyway. It amuses me if the gaurd changes sets at these points.


(1)That will be 170 472/3/4/5/6/7/8 they are the remaining 170s in SPT livery. (2) It takes too much time to shunt units to ensure 1st is on the service and they wouldnt do that. (3) That was a cost cutting measure, sometimes a trolley doesn't turn up up at all:-x. (4) With busy 6 car sets its not possible to check every ticket. I believe that guards do challenge passengers who are in the wrong class of accommodation and take the appropriate action as required.
 

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I wasn't saying the gaurds don't challenge, it is just as the trains dont have corridor connections they can't be in both sets at once. You see passengers at some stations checking which set the gaurd is in just so they go on the opposite set.
 

Scotrail84

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I wasn't saying the gaurds don't challenge, it is just as the trains dont have corridor connections they can't be in both sets at once. You see passengers at some stations checking which set the gaurd is in just so they go on the opposite set.



Yeah i know i wasnt having a dig.

I know from experience exactly what you mean. Not a lot you can do about it unfortunately. If I find a passenger out of class then i will ask them if they would like to upgrade and if they say no then they will be asked to make their way to STD accommodation.
 
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