First Class within TFL zones 1-6

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by zoopla, 5 Jun 2017.

  1. zoopla

    zoopla Member

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    I saw a notice on a Southern Train, travelling to London Victoria, that said there was no First Class within London Zones 1-6.
    IE a 1st class ticket was NOT needed to travel in First Class within zones 1-6.

    Is this for Southern Trains only or does this apply to all NR trains travelling within London ?


    (Zoe Plachette)
     
    Last edited: 5 Jun 2017
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  3. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    I think it's Southern Metro services only. It used to be the case on the East Croydon-MKC services, but appears not to be any more.
     
  4. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    I have seen people getting their details taken on Brighton bound services between Victoria and East Croydon for sitting in first class with standard class tickets.
     
  5. class387

    class387 Established Member

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    It's not even all Southern trains! Just the 'metro' services (Caterham, Epsom, Sutton, Tattenham Corner etc.). I think it's because some of the trains on these routes are 455s which have no first class, while others (377s) do. Not much difference anyway.

    There are some other TOCs which declassify on some local services, but there is no rule.
     
    Last edited: 5 Jun 2017
  6. methethpropbut

    methethpropbut Member

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    I took a Thameslink Metro service once (the Sutton service) and I believe it was declassified as well - but after hearing the horror stories of people getting off the deep end for accidentally being in first class on a standard ticket - no thank you!
     
  7. A Challenge

    A Challenge Established Member

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    Is there a way to travel first class on oyster?
     
  8. class387

    class387 Established Member

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    If I am correct Thameslink services to Sutton are declassified. I've even heard announcements saying that there is 'no first and you can sit in any part of the train'.

    Meanwhile, the Brighton train mentioned earlier isn't, hence the penalty fare.
     
  9. bb21

    bb21 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    No, unless you travel on one of the declassified services.

    Oyster is a Standard Class only product.
     
  10. matt_world2004

    matt_world2004 Established Member

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    Yep, Although you can get first class travelcards just not on Oyster
     
  11. Mag_seven

    Mag_seven Established Member

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    I've never heard of 1st class being "declassified" for certain portions of the journey? Do the RPI's lurk in the background then pounce on 1st class the moment the train leaves Zone 6?
     
  12. MikeWh

    MikeWh Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    The services in question are usually completely within zones 1-6.
     
  13. GodAtum

    GodAtum Established Member

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    When I was getting a season ticket from East Croydon - Victoria, the ticket office staff member said I don't need 1st class. After a bit of debate, she issued me a 1st class ticket. I have heard various announcements on-board trains saying that 1st class is in effect.
     
  14. AlterEgo

    AlterEgo Veteran Member

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    Perhaps she was trying to stop you wasting your money. ;)
     
  15. zoopla

    zoopla Member

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    It seems that its best for me to stay out of 1st Class

    I understand 'metro' to mean services entirely within z1-6, but Epsom is beyond z6.

    Would Dorking or Horsham services be classified as 'metro' ?

    There is also the Thameslink 'Wimbledon Loop'. This goes to Bedford, but on Sundays some only go to Blackfriars.
     
  16. abn444

    abn444 Member

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    I'm pretty sure they are and therefore declassified. Although if it's for Horsham then only declassified on the route via Epsom and Dorking.
     
  17. tsr

    tsr Established Member

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    Here is the definitive answer, for Southern:

    Unless staff state otherwise, First Class is in operation on "mainline" services in the London Zones, but not on the vast majority of "Metro" services.

    First Class tickets can be purchased on paper or on a lot of smartcards, eg. Southern's "key" cards, but not on Oyster. Oyster is only able to be used in First Class on mainline services at the weekends, provided you are willing to pay the Weekend First upgrade as soon as it is requested of you, which is a blanket £5 cost for one journey on any Southern train. For Oyster, also read contactless, Freedom Passes, Apple Pay etc.

    The very observant will have noticed a tiny bit of small print on some of the First Class signage over the last couple of years, which does say that First Class upgrades are only available at weekends.

    So... geography...

    Metro services are mainly Southern's suburban stopping services, and these trains can be formed of trains with or without First Class areas provided. They are also services which generally spend a great deal (or all) of their journey in the London Zones, but may run outside the zonal areas at times. Routes included are those Southern trains which run to Beckenham Junction, West Croydon, Sutton, Epsom, Dorking, the route between Dorking and Horsham via Ockley, Caterham, Tattenham Corner, Wimbledon, Guildford, Crystal Palace, Streatham Hill, and all stops between London Victoria and East Croydon (mainly peak hours).

    First Class is also declassified on some (but not all) of the mainline fast shuttles in the evenings between London Bridge and East Croydon, via Norwood Junction only, and on Southern services which start or terminate at Ashford International, often on the basis that some of these trains are quite short and can be very crowded.

    First Class is provided on some Southern services towards Milton Keynes Central, which is mainly enforced north of Watford Junction. All such trains must have a conductor north of Clapham Junction, so they would be the person to ask. These are usually the only Southern services where it could be enforced part-way through the journey. These trains are something of an oddity, in that they are grouped under Metro but run with semi-fast stopping patterns at higher speeds north of Shepherd's Bush.

    Trains to/from London Victoria or London Bridge which run via Redhill, Gatwick, Oxted, Three Bridges and/or Haywards Heath generally have First Class in operation throughout the journey, including in the London Zones. These services usually spend considerable time outside London, where people may have longer journeys where an upgrade to First Class is perhaps somewhat more likely to be worth the effort, and are almost always formed of trains with First Class areas.
     
    Last edited: 29 Jul 2017
  18. Starmill

    Starmill Veteran Member

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    All references to Weekend First on Southern were removed from the NRE website when Southern joined GTR in 2015.

    http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/pr3744bcc35ce7410024862c7ece4649.aspx

    Southern's own website has also had all of the references to Weekend First removed:

    http://www.southernrailway.com/tickets-and-fares/ticket-types/first-class-travel/

    I am sure the National Rail Timetable used to include a full list of operators who offered weekend first. Perhaps it was under the "Commercial Information" heading. It also used to include sections on crossing london and things like a summary of the changes in the new timetable. Has this been abolished? I can't see any evidence of this any more.

    Anyway, to summarise there's no evidence Southern actually do operate weekend first - are you sure this is up to date information?
     
  19. Starmill

    Starmill Veteran Member

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    This is very poor. These trains are shown in the timetable as having First Class throughout.

    It is perfectly possible for the train to be loaded into the timetable as having First Class only between certain stations. Somebody with a First Class ticket might be travelling on one of these trains in the area marked for First Class, believing it to be First Class when in fact you are saying Southern may not consider it so.

    If Southern would rather not enforce First Class (for example, because no guard, OBS or RPIs can be provided) then it should really not be in the timetable.

    At least there is some reasonable consistency in other areas. For example, every train all day from Redhill to East Croydon has First Class. No trains that call at Epsom ever have First Class.
     
    Last edited: 29 Jul 2017
  20. jon0844

    jon0844 Veteran Member

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    If they removed references to weekend first, shouldn't they edit the remaining text to remove Monday to Friday? Otherwise what happens at the weekend now?
     
  21. JackTheLad

    JackTheLad Member

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    Except TL services on the Sevenoaks branch which are declassified throughout even stations beyond St Mary Cray which is the last station on the line in zone 6.
     
  22. lightbulb

    lightbulb Member

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    In addition to the Thameslink "Metro" services mentioned above where any 1st class is declassified, on class 700 trains, 1st class in the rear carriage (whether 4, 8, or 12 cars) is always declassified, and there's an announcement to confirm this on the on-board display in this carriage.

    On class 377s, the end 1st class portions are declassified, with magenta- coloured stickers on the doors and windows to indicate this.

    I was travelling recently from Elstree & Borehamwood on an 8 car class 700 with Oyster, and being a Metro, all 1st class accomodation was declassified, confirmed by the displays on the platform. I sat in the front 1st class carriage, and an RPI came along and asked me for my 1st class ticket. I presented my Oyster, and he told me it was not valid in 1st class. I mentioned the display on the platform saying thet "the 1st class sections of this train were not in use", but he insisted that this only applied to the rear carriage. I pointed out that all 1st class sections were declassified, as the train was not advertised to convey 1st class. He "let me off".
     
  23. lightbulb

    lightbulb Member

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    Turning to GWR, all class 165s are declassified, and one of the two 1st class compartments on class 166s are declassified. Most of the Thames Valley services booked for both these classes are in any case advertised to convey Std accommodation only, so in practice only a few peak hour services are advertised to convey 1st class.
     
  24. gray1404

    gray1404 Established Member

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    Please be sure to complain to the company about this. I dread to think what might have happened if you had been able to assert yourself.
     
  25. ronmanager

    ronmanager Member

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  26. Denyboy

    Denyboy Member

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    That isn't completely true, as if a service within the fare zone has a declassified 1st class then oyster users are more than welcome to do it.
     
  27. MikeWh

    MikeWh Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    Oyster, along with all standard class tickets, are not valid in first class. If 1st class accomodation is declassified then it is treated as if it were standard class.
     

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