First East Coast (new Open Access Operator) to be standard class only?!

[cjp]

Mod Note: Posts #1 - #4 originally in this thread.

That's roughly what Chiltern do (give or take my dislike for IC70 seats which is probably not shared by smaller people! )

The First East Coast service is also to be Standard only.

Really? That's me gone then.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Really? That's me gone then.

They are effectively trying to create a budget airline on rails, which will be an interesting experiment. So no TOC specific walk-on fares, only train-specific Advances, and no First Class.

They are however joining ORCATS so interavailable fares will be valid, but the Advances are said to be much lower than the interavailable walk-on fare at any given time of day and for all seats. It also wouldn't surprise me if all seats were reserved, so walk-on passengers might have to stand.

 

[Bald Rick]

Really? That's me gone then.

Yep, their original plan was to compete with the low cost airlines, on price, which on London-Edinburgh means all airlines. They might do extra leg room seats I suppose. But each train would have over 3-4 planes worth of seats, quite a capacity increase in the market.

It's a blatant ORCATS raid in my opinion. Nevertheless, I think they'd catch a cold.

 

[cjp]

Is there a timescale for this lemming leap?

 

[ainsworth74]

Is there a timescale for this lemming leap?

May 2021 is the current expected date as far as I'm aware.

But, I would note, that no-one is forcing you to use this operation so I'm not sure 'lemming leap' is really fair. Surely introducing a cheaper way of doing London to Edinburgh is a good thing for passengers?

 

[hexagon789]

Really? That's me gone then.

On the bright side you'll get free WiFi!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Really? That's me gone then.

And me too. Stupid idea. Why won’t they realise that some people like to pay a little extra for more comfort! I despair.

 

[Helvellyn]

Almost sounds like Greyhound on rails. Given First own that brand I wonder if that is what they might use for the services?

 

[ainsworth74]

And me too. Stupid idea. Why won’t they realise that some people like to pay a little extra for more comfort! I despair.

For anyone who wants some extra comfort the ICEC franchisee will still be available.

Meanwhile for those that want cheap travel between London to Edinburgh there will be option. Surely a good thing overall?

 

[tgrb]

Do we know what rolling stock they have in mind for this? I see it says 5 sets? New or being it not starting until 2021 VTEC cast offs?

 

[ainsworth74]

Do we know what rolling stock they have in mind for this? I see it says 5 sets? New or being it not starting until 2021 VTEC cast offs?

From a previous thread a procurement exercise is ongoing. Personally my money is on more IETs.

Though I believe the bid was on the basis of a 390 like unit (without tilt of course).

 

[tgrb]

From a previous thread a procurement exercise is ongoing. Personally my money is on more IETs.

Yeah, as I'm a betting man I'll be asking Ladbrokes for odds on that being the case!

 

[xotGD]

And me too. Stupid idea. Why won’t they realise that some people like to pay a little extra for more comfort! I despair.

They obviously believe that price conscious passengers slightly outnumber people like you.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

They obviously believe that price conscious passengers slightly outnumber people like you.

Yes, thanks for that

 

[hexagon789]

Do we know what rolling stock they have in mind for this? I see it says 5 sets? New or being it not starting until 2021 VTEC cast offs?

It's supposed to be 5 new 125mph-capable EMUs fitted with a buffet car and one single class of accommodation.

I find the name East Coast Trains is surprisingly similar to the DOR East Coast operator, I'd have thought the name was to similar to be permitted.

At least I suppose the people of Morpeth abd Stevenage get am improved service out of it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

From a previous thread a procurement exercise is ongoing. Personally my money is on more IETs.

I'd bet on either IETs or whatever it is TPE are ordering from CAF for the WCML services if they are cheaper.

 

[superalbs]

Would Hitachi even have enough room to build more AT300s?

I personally expect the stock to be quite different to what we'd expect, as the style of service certainly is!

 

[Harbornite]

And me too. Stupid idea. Why won’t they realise that some people like to pay a little extra for more comfort! I despair.

Did it not occur to you that some people like to save money and would be willing to do so at the expense of losing some comfort?

Also, to reiterate what Ainsworth said, there will still be an alternative available, the ICEC franchise isn't being axed. It's called competition.

 

[rmt4ever]

Wonder if it wil be a ticketless operation, like the Swedish one-class MTR service

 

[Agent_Squash]

397s?

 

[Failed Unit]

Considering the plan is to call at Stevenage some may prefer the quicker time than 1st class as well. When it is in operation I would certainly try it rather than double back at London. You never know standard class on this operator may be better than 1st on the new Azuma trains.

If i recall it will call Stevenage, Newcastle, Morpeth and Edinburgh.

Stevenage could be a magnet for Hertfordshire. Good connections to Cambridge as well. Significantly quicker than via Peterborough.

 

[rmt4ever]

Considering the plan is to call at Stevenage some may prefer the quicker time than 1st class as well. When it is in operation I would certainly try it rather than double back at London. You never know standard class on this operator may be better than 1st on the new Azuma trains.

If i recall it will call Stevenage, Newcastle, Morpeth and Edinburgh.

Stevenage could be a magnet for Hertfordshire. Good connections to Cambridge as well. Significantly quicker than via Peterborough.

No Doncaster.. dats sad

 

[DaveNewcastle]

The First East Coast offer will be a very attractive option to the many passengers who currently travel by Megabus, a service which runs 6 busses a day between Newcastle and London taking between 6 and 8 hours with ticket prices typically between £5 and £20. A significant proportion of those passengers appear to be students and younger visitors for whom cost is a significant deciding factor, and who find that the current cost of rail travel is a disincentive.

 

[Failed Unit]

No Doncaster.. dats sad

Guess that have got to avoid blatant raiding and Doncaster already has an hourly service planned. Stevenage has no service. Morpeth is an interesting choice.

But they are looking for speed. Circa 4 hours if I recall so the need very few stops.

Be interesting once it takes off if Thameslink users will prefer it over a kings cross / st Pancras change.

We will see. But from what I know certainly worth a try as it should provide me with a quicker journey. If comfort is shocking will be back to east coast. But that said no-one knows what level of comfort it will have by then.

I have seen speculation about heading to Stirling to call at Edinburgh Park, Linlithgow and Falkirk. But these may have no truth in at all.

 

[AlterEgo]

And me too. Stupid idea. Why won’t they realise that some people like to pay a little extra for more comfort! I despair.

That would be like criticising Ryanair for not having a business class. I’m sure there are some Ryanair passengers who’d pay for it.

If Ryanair introduced a business class it would undermine their whole concept - it would risk communicating to passengers that Ryanair isn’t a low cost carrier.

 

[Ianno87]

Guess that have got to avoid blatant raiding and Doncaster already has an hourly service planned. Stevenage has no service. Morpeth is an interesting choice.

But they are looking for speed. Circa 4 hours if I recall so the need very few stops.

Be interesting once it takes off if Thameslink users will prefer it over a kings cross / st Pancras change.

We will see. But from what I know certainly worth a try as it should provide me with a quicker journey. If comfort is shocking will be back to east coast. But that said no-one knows what level of comfort it will have by then.

I have seen speculation about heading to Stirling to call at Edinburgh Park, Linlithgow and Falkirk. But these may have no truth in at all.

IIRC, Morpeth was with the intention of attracting those who currently drive to Newcastle Airport.

Stevenage will be good for connections. 5 minutes across the platform at Stevenage compares favourably to the 30+ minutes journey planners reckon you need to cross Pancras Road! Plus Cambridge connections will be popular (there are commonly a number of people off existing Stevenage stoppers making this connection)

 

[tbtc]

Did it not occur to you that some people like to save money and would be willing to do so at the expense of losing some comfort?

Also, to reiterate what Ainsworth said, there will still be an alternative available, the ICEC franchise isn't being axed. It's called competition.

Agreed.

We've had many years of people sniffily pointing out that "I thought we were meant to have genuine competition" (because of privatisation)... but then people get agitated by the idea of a competitive service coming along that doesn't provide exactly what *they* want... surely the market is big enough to cater to different types of passenger?

(I mean, in principle I'm against this service as I'd rather have one TOC providing and co-ordinating services - but the Edinburgh - London corridor sustains a "half hourly" train service plus plenty of flights and National Express/ Megabus coaches, so I can see that there might be a market for a different service - and I won't throw my toys out of the pram if it doesn't cater to me and my predilections - much as I'd welcome a service run with push/pull Class 27s!)

 

[yorksrob]

I think it's quite a good idea to take on the low cost airlines and coaches. That said, it will be interesting to see whether existing Scotland - London passengers will continue to pay the higher tiers of AP tickets on current providers, or will they just bail to the new operator !

Will the franchisee offer more lower fares to compete and will they do this down the line, or risk short-faring issues.

Shame they're not using re-conditioned rolling stock though.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Ok, well take VTEC 225s.

9 coaches: 5.5x Standard, 3x First

Surely this new operator could at least do:

9 coaches: 8x Standard, 1x First

Or even increase it to eleven coaches like Virgin West Coast do?

11 coaches: 10.5x Standard, 2x First

A considerable amount of added room for those who want to be savvy without eliminating the added revenue that could come in from passengers who want to travel in a nicer atmosphere but possibly not spend on Virgin. For this they could offer maybe a seat only first? I don’t know...

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Sorry where I said:

11 coaches: 10.5x Standard, 2x First

I meant 9.5x Standard, 1.5x First