First East Coast (new Open Access Operator) to be standard class only?!

[Aictos]

How about a Ouigo style service - suburb to suburb. Say Alexandra Palace to Dunbar or Prestonpans. Saves long turnaround times at terminals. At Ally Pally the unloaded set can be driven down to Ferme Park, use the flyover to cross over to the up line ready for its return North. Marshall a pair of 91's either end of a 9 car rake for additional acceleration to beat an 802 and keep the train as close to line speed limit all the way. Start the tickets at £10 single!

That was the old plan of service however they are now serving or will be serving Paris directly from the 8th December 2018.

https://www.ouigo.com/train-pour-paris-gare-de-lyon

So instead of using a station on the outskirts of Paris like they have been doing, they are actually using one of the Paris terminal stations which is a good thing.

Also why terminate at Alexandra Palace? Why not Finsbury Park and reverse at Canonbury employing onboard staff to run though and do a turnaround clean like they do with the budget airlines then restart at Finsbury Park.

However back to the actual operation I look forward to it and who knows maybe we might see a similar operation on the WCML...

 

[transmanche]

Also why terminate at Alexandra Palace? Why not Finsbury Park and reverse at Canonbury employing onboard staff to run though and do a turnaround clean like they do with the budget airlines then restart at Finsbury Park.

Didn't BR, at one time, operate a budget service from Finsbury Park to the North/Scotland?

 

[HowardGWR]

That was the old plan of service however they are now serving or will be serving Paris directly from the 8th December 2018.

https://www.ouigo.com/train-pour-paris-gare-de-lyon

So instead of using a station on the outskirts of Paris like they have been doing, they are actually using one of the Paris terminal stations which is a good thing.

Also why terminate at Alexandra Palace? Why not Finsbury Park and reverse at Canonbury employing onboard staff to run though and do a turnaround clean like they do with the budget airlines then restart at Finsbury Park.

However back to the actual operation I look forward to it and who knows maybe we might see a similar operation on the WCML...

Yes, but worth bearing in mind that the 'revenue extraction' issue there is relatively academic as Ouigo is also SNCF.

 

[Aictos]

Didn't BR, at one time, operate a budget service from Finsbury Park to the North/Scotland?

I believe they did called with it being called The Highwayman I think, I'm sure @ChiefPlanner being ex BR can verify it.

 

[route:oxford]

All of which may be true, although I'd say it's between 40 and 80 minutes quicker by plane from most of central London to most of Edinburgh. Most of the people I know going to London actually prefer the train either because they can get work done, or they just hate airports. The extra time is just not a factor and the leading cause of flying is that it's cheaper, which presumably is the very issue First are looking to target.

That just doesn't work for the regular commuters though.

A colleague commutes 3 days a week from Edinburgh to London, you just can't walk out of the office and be home in time to read the bairns a bedtime story doing that by train. His commute is quicker than some of our co-workers!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Commutes daily? That's expensive. There are plenty of weekly commuters in both directions, though, I've done it.

 

[Edders23]

Would we expect an order to already be on the books? The access rights don't start until May 2021 so we're still two and a half years away from launch. If we get to this time next year then I'd start to be suspicious but this far out?

I was thinking in terms of build slots if they leave it 12 months would the trains be built in time ?

 

[Polarbear]

I believe they did called with it being called The Highwayman I think, I'm sure @ChiefPlanner being ex BR can verify it.

It was indeed called “The Highwayman”. It ran for a short time in the 1970’s from Finsbury Park, but it can’t have been successful as it was withdrawn fairly quickly as I recall.

On the subject of the open access London-Edinburgh service, it’s gone very quiet & I would have expected a bit more noise about this by now?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I believe they did called with it being called The Highwayman I think, I'm sure @ChiefPlanner being ex BR can verify it.

They did - routed via the Durham Coast as well , - with no refreshment services. Bit of a daft idea by making it so unattractive , when the road competition was offering better than that ! (remember being intrigued to see posters advertising it at Finsbury Park)

Later on you had the "Nightrider" - which was competitively priced , but I think had surplus First Open vehicles.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was thinking in terms of build slots if they leave it 12 months would the trains be built in time ?

I do wonder if with First's poor fortunes it's fallen by the wayside.

 

[Journeyman]

I do wonder if with First's poor fortunes it's fallen by the wayside.

I suspect it probably has. I think Tim O'Toole's departure will bring about significant changes, with First only getting involved in fairly risk-free ventures, and disposing of a lot of the dross.

 

[jagardner1984]

Probably one for Speculative Ideas, but given Network Rail actively sought Open Access Applications for ECML paths created post 2021, if not this, then what ?

It seems given there is Open Access services to Sunderland and to Hull, Scotland is the next logical step. If you can undercut budget airlines and in some cases, the coach operators, I think this could be a very healthy market ....

 

[BigCj34]

I would be concerned if there isn't appropriate protection to prevent passengers being stranded, if they got to Edinburgh but missed a booked service northwards or were stranded. How does it work with Hull Trains / Grand Central in the event of onward connections from delays on an OA service?

 

[takno]

That just doesn't work for the regular commuters though.

A colleague commutes 3 days a week from Edinburgh to London, you just can't walk out of the office and be home in time to read the bairns a bedtime story doing that by train. His commute is quicker than some of our co-workers!

I know there are a number of people doing this commute, but it's definitely not most of the people on the planes! I would think this will target more the people flying to Luton, Stansted or Gatwick and then going into central London, which is 15 flights/day

I'm not especially bothered if this one has been kicked into the long grass anyway, since I would have thought it was effectively in competition for track space with the old VTEC 4 hour Edinburgh-London train, and I'd rather see that happen.

 

[Wolfie]

That was the old plan of service however they are now serving or will be serving Paris directly from the 8th December 2018.

https://www.ouigo.com/train-pour-paris-gare-de-lyon

So instead of using a station on the outskirts of Paris like they have been doing, they are actually using one of the Paris terminal stations which is a good thing.

Also why terminate at Alexandra Palace? Why not Finsbury Park and reverse at Canonbury employing onboard staff to run though and do a turnaround clean like they do with the budget airlines then restart at Finsbury Park.

However back to the actual operation I look forward to it and who knows maybe we might see a similar operation on the WCML...

WRT your Finsbury Park/Canonbury (my local station) suggestion - No because as l understand it:
1 Canonbury is pretty busy with London Overground and freight services and we don't want the former, which are mooted to further increase in number, screwed up by extraneous speculative money-grabbing junk;
2 Finsbury Park is itself exceptionally busy, with other possible mooted services having been ruled out, so unless First are prepared to put their hands on their pockets to fund infrastructure improvements...

 

[Aictos]

WRT your Finsbury Park/Canonbury (my local station) suggestion - No because as l understand it:
1 Canonbury is pretty busy with London Overground and freight services and we don't want the former, which are mooted to further increase in number, screwed up by extraneous speculative money-grabbing junk;
2 Finsbury Park is itself exceptionally busy, with other possible mooted services having been ruled out, so unless First are prepared to put their hands on their pockets to fund infrastructure improvements...

Finsbury Park to use Platform 1 and Platform 8 as to Canonbury I meant the turnback that GN services use so not the actual station but the turnback just before which GN services use when turning back at FPK.

 

[Clarence Yard]

I do wonder if with First's poor fortunes it's fallen by the wayside.

No - it's all delayed because of boring procedure.

To finalize a deal with a ROSCO, you have to give them an up to date business plan. The problem is that, thanks to the ORR taking their time, we are now in a CP review year (for CP6) so the final detail of the NR charges has to wait for the publication of the final determination. When that happens in a few weeks time, the handle will be cranked, the final business plan details will pop out (the NR numbers are largely known already) and an order will be placed shortly after.

The name of the business isn't First East Coast. It's East Coast Trains Limited, deliberately so because FEC has obvious Father Ted connotations. I don't think the ECTL team fancied naming their trains after the main Father Ted characters or having Mrs Doyle lookalikes on the trolley offering cups of tea!

The paths used are not instead of ones bid in the LNER franchise, they are additional. It was a turning point in the ORR hearing when NR said that ECTL could be accommodated. The

 

[takno]

The paths used are not instead of ones bid in the LNER franchise, they are additional. It was a turning point in the ORR hearing when NR said that ECTL could be accommodated. The

Any chance that all the extra trains they've agreed to can actually be accommodated? I'm assuming nobody believes a word they say on capacity anymore given the state of Oxford Road. I can't see how you'd ever open any of the level crossings or operate Newark flat crossing, and getting a couple of extra fasts through eastern Edinburgh without doing a bucket-load of infrastructure enhancements seems optimistic.

 

[route:oxford]

Commutes daily? That's expensive. There are plenty of weekly commuters in both directions, though, I've done it.

Depends on so many things, but either books advances or buys the season pass/carnet. Carnet can cost about £65 each way.

 

[Robertj21a]

having read three pages of this thread the first thing that strikes me is that this is the rail equivalent of freddie lakers skytrain and as first group are predominantly a coach company why not all second; after all many routes including London commuter and most cross country/secondary routes don't have first class compartments nor do long distance coaches or short range aircraft

[Edited]

If you are talking about the UK then "First Group are predominantly a coach company" seems very wide of the mark - they have hardly any coaches.

 

[Aictos]

I don't think the ECTL team fancied naming their trains after the main Father Ted characters or having Mrs Doyle lookalikes on the trolley offering cups of tea!

Just think of how many cups of teas would be sold though....

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you are talking about the UK then "First Group are predominantly a coach company" seems very wide of the mark - they have hardly any coaches.

Quite. They are a bus and rail company in the UK.

 

[HH]

If you are talking about the UK then "First Group are predominantly a coach company" seems very wide of the mark - they have hardly any coaches.

Even if you're not talking UK, the only Coaches they have are US/Canada Greyhound, which is small beer in the US compared to the number of School Buses (over 40 times as many last time I looked).

 

[HowardGWR]

If you are talking about the UK then "First Group are predominantly a coach company" seems very wide of the mark - they have hardly any coaches.

It reminds me of the rich lady who was recommended to buy a Mercedes Benz car. "But they make trucks don't they?' she scoffed.