• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

First Greater Glasgow

Gingerbus1991

Member
Joined
30 Jul 2018
Messages
992
I'd add to this issue that...

LB are trying out in WL.

Stagecoach NS have implemented the 757 in January.

What wrong with First now more than every is the stagnancy of there effort and ambitions.

I hope that with new purchases for the 9s or 60s for example they could offer something other than purple-this purple-that, jazz things up a bit!
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

PaulMc7

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2019
Messages
4,029
I'd add to this issue that...

LB are trying out in WL.

Stagecoach NS have implemented the 757 in January.

What wrong with First now more than every is the stagnancy of there effort and ambitions.

I hope that with new purchases for the 9s or 60s for example they could offer something other than purple-this purple-that, jazz things up a bit!

The 1s, 77s and choosing the 75 and 18 as the first branded services were great pieces of innovation and we've had nothing much else. They've done some positive stuff around the LEZ but they've had to. Given that Mcgills are struggling a lot going by what I've seen on their forum on here it's all in First's hands tbh. We need another Simplicity style revamp I think but I know we won't get it plus if we were to get one it would need to be far easier to understand than the stuff we got. First have the potential to dominate here but lack of ambition being tried out doesn't help not to mention a shockingly bad social media game
 

Jordan Adam

Established Member
Joined
12 Sep 2017
Messages
5,514
Location
Aberdeen
I'd add to this issue that...

LB are trying out in WL.

Stagecoach NS have implemented the 757 in January.

What wrong with First now more than every is the stagnancy of there effort and ambitions.

I hope that with new purchases for the 9s or 60s for example they could offer something other than purple-this purple-that, jazz things up a bit!

The 757 was axed in August, the 747 remains but much reduced and still runs empty with battered E300s.

First Aberdeen have had a number of attempts at new services in recent times, but poor implementation (much like the SNS 747/757) mean that they've not really picked up.

First Scotland East: Doubled frequency of the Glasgow - Stirling/Falkirk services and rebranded them with a smart new livery. Granted it was motivated by Lothian, however the 600 is another strong attempt at "trying something out".

First Glasgow: Huge success of "The One", 150 new buses, converting the 77 to decker operation, extensive refurbishment of the B9TL/Geminis, well publicised roll out of new vehicles (everyone was talking about the 'bus in the box'), further buses on order.

What exactly do you expect them to offer? Regardless of what they did you'd still complain! They invest in 150 buses in 6 months and you still say it's not good enough, i'm afraid you need to reevaluate your expectations.
 

PaulMc7

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2019
Messages
4,029
I think the reason both Craig and myself think the way we do is down to being in Glasgow constantly, using First and also know for the biggest city in Scotland, the service doesn't quite match it. There are a lot of improvements as have been said and I've acknowledged them all but when there are glaring opportunities there to absolutely dominate and make more profit there it's a bit frustrating. First get a lot right and I think Andrew Jarvis is a great MD but for passenger numbers being down they've definitely not done enough to get people back on side. I'm also a great believer in spend money to make more money and as far as advertising goes First do very little and social media is up there with their biggest failures

I know I'm more ambitious and full of ideas than most at times but it's being on here that causes that and made me notice more of the issues we have with our bus services and not just First although it's easy for me to comment on them as my only break away from First was to use Mcgills for college in Paisley as I could go through Clydebank and not the City Centre and this was a coping mechanism for my claustrophobia, anxiety and Aspergers
 

Gingerbus1991

Member
Joined
30 Jul 2018
Messages
992
The 757 was axed in August, the 747 remains but much reduced and still runs empty with battered E300s.

First Aberdeen have had a number of attempts at new services in recent times, but poor implementation (much like the SNS 747/757) mean that they've not really picked up.

First Scotland East: Doubled frequency of the Glasgow - Stirling/Falkirk services and rebranded them with a smart new livery. Granted it was motivated by Lothian, however the 600 is another strong attempt at "trying something out".

First Glasgow: Huge success of "The One", 150 new buses, converting the 77 to decker operation, extensive refurbishment of the B9TL/Geminis, well publicised roll out of new vehicles (everyone was talking about the 'bus in the box'), further buses on order.

What exactly do you expect them to offer? Regardless of what they did you'd still complain! They invest in 150 buses in 6 months and you still say it's not good enough, i'm afraid you need to reevaluate your expectations.
I very much believe after reading from some people here before I signed up that the 600 was simply a blockade attempt on lothian setting up a similar service.

As you can tell, I'm only ever travel the central belt and I don't do my revision on what changes in North Scotland.

I visited George Square to see that, believe me when I say this, the bus in box was simply a novelty, I recall most wanting to speak to des clarke than bother about what buses were coming....

I'm would very much say expectations are generally much higher amongst most people than they were say 20 years ago, modern tech, access to the internet etc etc causes such thought on what you should expect for such a service, something still lacks even if if some can't put there finger on it.
 

Jordan Adam

Established Member
Joined
12 Sep 2017
Messages
5,514
Location
Aberdeen
I very much believe after reading from some people here before I signed up that the 600 was simply a blockade attempt on lothian setting up a similar service.

As you can tell, I'm only ever travel the central belt and I don't do my revision on what changes in North Scotland.

I visited George Square to see that, believe me when I say this, the bus in box was simply a novelty, I recall most wanting to speak to des clarke than bother about what buses were coming....

I'm would very much say expectations are generally much higher amongst most people than they were say 20 years ago, modern tech, access to the internet etc etc causes such thought on what you should expect for such a service, something still lacks even if if some can't put there finger on it.

The 600 was a blockade, however keep in mind First already offered a service to the Airport via the previous 21A. The 600 was effectively a merge of the 21A and the 22A minus the SQFerry section.

Of course you'd say that about the bus in the box, you clearly have an agenda, however the facts are everyone was talking about the bus in a box. Likewise when the refurbished 61 buses appeared there was a post online that went viral about them having wood effect flooring as USB sockets and many people commenting on how good they looked inside. Again you'll no doubt disagree, but those are the facts. As i say, there's still lots of progress to made, but constant moaning and criticising every effort then screaming "Lothian this... Lothian That" isn't going to see further improvements, and just shows a lack of appreciation.

Again you're just expecting too much, Glasgow is a fleet of almost 800 buses. It's near impossible to refurb and replace the whole fleet in the timescale you're expecting.
 

Gingerbus1991

Member
Joined
30 Jul 2018
Messages
992
I admit, I use the buses occasionally, but only for city centre trips, biased to my car 90% of the time, I am someone who has high expectations.
 

PaulMc7

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2019
Messages
4,029
I admit, I use the buses occasionally, but only for city centre trips, biased to my car 90% of the time, I am someone who has high expectations.

Leaves me as the only constant user of First then haha yeah my expectations are very high but that's in every aspect of life. In terms of buses here people definitely have extremely high expectations and some are almost too high
 

mde

Member
Joined
17 Nov 2016
Messages
513
It isn't something seen in glasgow anymore of course, but I do wonder whether dual-door buses on said busy routes, the 2 for example having deckers and two-doors to speed things up, the problems with timekeeping surely can't be through partick to kelvingrove, the 2 and 77 both help out through there, both are busy however.
Would the 'speed' differential be worth the extra cost of employing more revenue staff / a potential drop in farebox revenue?
 

smtglasgow

Member
Joined
15 Feb 2011
Messages
472
Location
Glasgow & London
If the X1 joined/left the M74 at Polmadie (as you said) with a better route in the city it would likely do better.

The thing is, going from the city centre to Hamilton in the evening, who is going to walk up to Cathedral Street and wait for the half hourly X1 when you could go to the 255/263/267 stops which albeit are probably going to be slower however offer a much higher frequency of buses. If the X1 followed the same or most of the same route in the city centre it would probably do better.

Just to be difficult, I think the X1/11 work fine running directly from the bus station onto the motorway. If you start running through the city centre you add a lot of time to the journey and would presumably need extra vehicles – a peak 267 can easily take 20-25 mins to reach Stockwell St. That end of town has frequent, fast trains to Hamilton and Motherwell; the unique selling point of the bus station is that the X1/X11 are the *only* fast options. With the bus station you’re serving 2 universities, Glasgow College and anyone who works at the top of the town.

Still think that if it survives long-term, the X1 will end up with just 2-3 peak journeys.
 

JumpinTrainz

Established Member
Joined
30 Jul 2018
Messages
1,654
I have driven buses for a few years, was born in glasgow and will never move away, I have certainly felt underwhelmed over what we are offered.

It's a sad fact that a modern life has became all about money, money, money, for those that say that money isnt everything, I would quietly say there wrong.

With respect to the e300s on the 1/1A and 2 only, they were in need of being disconsidered for such a routes, a B7RLE should've been the natural choice for such heavily demanding routes.

The original E300s certainly started the ball rolling much quicker on the way to the light weight, fuel efficiency guff we see in newer vehicles, of course operators did want this anyways, the e300s don't feel substantial enough for such routes, they never have been.

I always found the E300s to be very poor build quality in comparison with the buses Glasgow had received in previous years. In my opinion the B7RLEs were the last proper solid singles that Glasgow received. I understand that newer buses are aiming to be greener, lighter and more fuel efficient but sometimes that borders on flimsy. Don’t get me wrong some of the E300s are now about 7 years old and seem to have stood the test of time taking them to almost about mid life. The E200MMCs are probably nicer of the 2 types.

The 1, 2, 3 and 9/9A in my opinion are extremely busy routes. They could definitely be doing with upgrading the stock and as has been stated before, it would allow many newer singles to oust the older Euro 3 stock.
 

PaulMc7

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2019
Messages
4,029
If the 1s,2,3 and 9/9A were all to get new buses is that not a combined PVR of around 100? Last I seen the 2s was around 30 and obviously the 1s and 9/9A would be more than that as they're more frequent. That's a lot of buses for such few services
 

JumpinTrainz

Established Member
Joined
30 Jul 2018
Messages
1,654
I get that they offer two different levels of what you might call "quality", edinburgh generally is a more expensive place with far wealthier people living there.

However I question the motive of "less money = less investment", generally speaking, yes that is the case, but in this instance the relatively small purchases for there 2015 400s on the kirky expresses and the x11, why is it all of a sudden theres apparently millions more £'s appeared from an apparent no where, will all recent purchases be on tick or leases?

Glasgow does disrespect itself more so than other citys around Scotland unfortunately.

The 65 plate E400MMCs were only brought in to replace the E500s which were lost to Aberdeen. They pretty much were used to cover the services the E500s had operated on (ie the 4, 5, 75). Same with the 65 plate E200MMCs were only really brought in to replace the E300s which moved to FSE so we weren’t really benefiting from that as such just replacing newer buses with new buses I guess. Lanarkshire did get some smaller E200MMCs that year I believe for local services.

I always found it a mistake that the E400MMCs were moved on to Express services and Kirky routes as I think it was just a quick fix as they didn’t properly know how to operate the stop/start. The whole point of the stop/start was for city work which these buses would have been suited for. I think refurbished B9TLs would have been better for motorway services. I agree with Jordan’s idea that new buses could be ordered for the express services (preferably with bigger engines to cope with constant motorway work) to allow the current 65 plates to join the ex-FSE E400MMCs to upgrade the 60/60A and 41. I’ve noticed the express buses are losing their branding during repaint so hopefully this is a good indication of things to come.
 

PaulMc7

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2019
Messages
4,029
I always feel like First drop the ball a bit with their expresses here. The X8 is the biggest case of it though. Always got fairly shoddy buses and it's never had any sort of branding since Silverburn became such a massive and popular shopping centre. The marketing practically writes itself for there and at least one bus to there should be branded. Even with Glasgow Fort they don't go all-in with there either. Could easily do branding with the improvements to the 19 although it's a cut that's created the need for that. Another service that gets shoddy buses most of the time. It doesn't even take that long to the fort either given the fact it's not an express bus. There's plenty to draw attention to with its route too.

City centre shopping
Strathclyde uni/City of Glasgow college
Royal Infirmary
Glasgow Fort

Considering the route length that's good for marketing opportunities

Tbh, if the 19 had new buses in good condition I somehow think that 19A cut would have gone down more smoothly than it did. I still don't see how the X2 will do better than it either. Very limited opportunity for profit especially in an area that's always had poor services that have turned so many people away from buses
 
Last edited:

Jordan Adam

Established Member
Joined
12 Sep 2017
Messages
5,514
Location
Aberdeen
Just to be difficult, I think the X1/11 work fine running directly from the bus station onto the motorway. If you start running through the city centre you add a lot of time to the journey and would presumably need extra vehicles – a peak 267 can easily take 20-25 mins to reach Stockwell St. That end of town has frequent, fast trains to Hamilton and Motherwell; the unique selling point of the bus station is that the X1/X11 are the *only* fast options. With the bus station you’re serving 2 universities, Glasgow College and anyone who works at the top of the town.

Still think that if it survives long-term, the X1 will end up with just 2-3 peak journeys.

I get why it does, but does Hamilton really have that big of a uni/college population? As i say the reason it would be better staying on the M74 is that it would allow it to serve the busy city centre stops the 255/263/267 do. It's clearly not a viable route in it's current format and as i say it's not always about speeds but rather the links provided and convenience of use.
 

PaulMc7

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2019
Messages
4,029
I get why it does, but does Hamilton really have that big of a uni/college population? As i say the reason it would be better staying on the M74 is that it would allow it to serve the busy city centre stops the 255/263/267 do. It's clearly not a viable route in it's current format and as i say it's not always about speeds but rather the links provided and convenience of use.

The links the 267 offers show why it's the best of the Hamilton-Glasgow services plus the 255 and 263 have seen the frequency destroyed over the years for poor usage granted the trains play a massive factor in that. It does need a change but I wouldn't change the peak service at all. If I was going to suggest a route change it has to be off-peak only. Could even have a 1 an hour split into 2 routes- 1 short way 1 long way or all longer off peak
 

Jordan Adam

Established Member
Joined
12 Sep 2017
Messages
5,514
Location
Aberdeen
The links the 267 offers show why it's the best of the Hamilton-Glasgow services plus the 255 and 263 have seen the frequency destroyed over the years for poor usage granted the trains play a massive factor in that. It does need a change but I wouldn't change the peak service at all. If I was going to suggest a route change it has to be off-peak only. Could even have a 1 an hour split into 2 routes- 1 short way 1 long way or all longer off peak

Perhaps have the X1 run as it does during the peak times, but then offpeak it operates via the M74 & Uddingston as a X55 idea mentioned before.
 

PaulMc7

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2019
Messages
4,029
Perhaps have the X1 run as it does during the peak times, but then offpeak it operates via the M74 & Uddingston as a X55 idea mentioned before.

Given the positioning of the M74 junctions it's the best suggestion tbh to use the X55 idea. Despite there being the M73/M74 merge at that junction too it's never usually very busy unless something major happens outside of peaks and even at peak time it's not the worst junction ever if they were to try something at peaks too
 

JumpinTrainz

Established Member
Joined
30 Jul 2018
Messages
1,654
I always feel like First drop the ball a bit with their expresses here. The X8 is the biggest case of it though. Always got fairly shoddy buses and it's never had any sort of branding since Silverburn became such a massive and popular shopping centre. The marketing practically writes itself for there and at least one bus to there should be branded. Even with Glasgow Fort they don't go all-in with there either. Could easily do branding with the improvements to the 19 although it's a cut that's created the need for that. Another service that gets shoddy buses most of the time. It doesn't even take that long to the fort either given the fact it's not an express bus. There's plenty to draw attention to with its route too.

City centre shopping
Strathclyde uni/City of Glasgow college
Royal Infirmary
Glasgow Fort

Considering the route length that's good for marketing opportunities

Tbh, if the 19 had new buses in good condition I somehow think that 19A cut would have gone down more smoothly than it did. I still don't see how the X2 will do better than it either. Very limited opportunity for profit especially in an area that's always had poor services that have turned so many people away from buses

I understand where you’re going here. I don’t think branding has ever been something First Glasgow has ever really excelled in. Even the destination signs don’t always list the key areas in which buses travel via.

I think the 2 being one of the biggest routes on the FIG network, it should have new, branded buses. However due to the 2 and 3 sharing buses from Scotstoun it would be almost impossible to do that which is a shame as it was done before in the Overground days.

I agree routes could be branded better however where do you stop is the issue. It would be impossible to brand every route but the key ones should be done as well as the ones which have the most competition. Going back to the whole business side of things - head office will look at each route and depending on which ones are doing well etc they will decide whether they want to spend the money on new buses/branding. The 19/19A can’t be a great money maker for them otherwise they wouldn’t have cut it. Not to mention it very rarely sees new buses but rather any old tat that’s laying around along with the 46.
 

PaulMc7

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2019
Messages
4,029
I actually wouldn't brand too many buses because overkill becomes a major issue. If the 2 had new buses it would make a lot of sense. The 3 and 6/6A have been mentioned a few times for newly branded buses but I don't think there's a way to get the best out of them as they are. The route length and unreliability are very problematic. Been on 6s a few times in the last couple of weeks and certainly, in the west section of the route, it doesn't need every 10mins frequency. I understand the need at peaks but definitely, during the day it's not busy by any stretch. The problem with the 19/19A is the Robroyston part of the 19A. A lot of them stay very busy through Provanmill and Royston but there's just nothing much to grab people's attention in Robroyston and tbh that's no fault of First's. A lot of people use it for work and Asda and that's it tbh
 

route101

Established Member
Joined
16 May 2010
Messages
10,594
I actually wouldn't brand too many buses because overkill becomes a major issue. If the 2 had new buses it would make a lot of sense. The 3 and 6/6A have been mentioned a few times for newly branded buses but I don't think there's a way to get the best out of them as they are. The route length and unreliability are very problematic. Been on 6s a few times in the last couple of weeks and certainly, in the west section of the route, it doesn't need every 10mins frequency. I understand the need at peaks but definitely, during the day it's not busy by any stretch. The problem with the 19/19A is the Robroyston part of the 19A. A lot of them stay very busy through Provanmill and Royston but there's just nothing much to grab people's attention in Robroyston and tbh that's no fault of First's. A lot of people use it for work and Asda and that's it tbh

I used the 19a today from City to Robroyston Asda , alx 400 and eclipse , its a short route compared to my ek run . Not whole lot going on in this area of NE GLasgow , N and NE of Glasgow , not a s much interest to me . The provsion at the Asda is poor.
 

route101

Established Member
Joined
16 May 2010
Messages
10,594
I actually wouldn't brand too many buses because overkill becomes a major issue. If the 2 had new buses it would make a lot of sense. The 3 and 6/6A have been mentioned a few times for newly branded buses but I don't think there's a way to get the best out of them as they are. The route length and unreliability are very problematic. Been on 6s a few times in the last couple of weeks and certainly, in the west section of the route, it doesn't need every 10mins frequency. I understand the need at peaks but definitely, during the day it's not busy by any stretch. The problem with the 19/19A is the Robroyston part of the 19A. A lot of them stay very busy through Provanmill and Royston but there's just nothing much to grab people's attention in Robroyston and tbh that's no fault of First's. A lot of people use it for work and Asda and that's it tbh

Yeah , i checked the 6 , every ten minutes , usually a 12 to 15 min freq when i use it.
 

route101

Established Member
Joined
16 May 2010
Messages
10,594
Leaves me as the only constant user of First then haha yeah my expectations are very high but that's in every aspect of life. In terms of buses here people definitely have extremely high expectations and some are almost too high

I use first as i have a pass , can be a slow way to get around mind . If i lived closer to a train station offering quicker journeys , id pay extra for it.
 

PaulMc7

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2019
Messages
4,029
I use first as i have a pass , can be a slow way to get around mind . If i lived closer to a train station offering quicker journeys , id pay extra for it.

Yeah I stay within 5/10mins of 2 train stations but as my journeys are to areas not really near train stations plus I have the 1s as my main bus it's a no brainer to use bus over train. As much as I call out bad things about First there's far worse operators to rely on
 

PaulMc7

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2019
Messages
4,029
Seen a couple of X1s today in Hamilton. If it is anything to go by it's definitely not lasting into 2020. 3/4 people on the Glasgow one around 3:15 and the Hamilton one wasn't that busy either. 226s weren't busy either though. Was good to see a nice 65 plate decker on a 21 in East Kilbride though and certainly a lot of Streetlites on 255s and 263s
 

JumpinTrainz

Established Member
Joined
30 Jul 2018
Messages
1,654
Seen a couple of X1s today in Hamilton. If it is anything to go by it's definitely not lasting into 2020. 3/4 people on the Glasgow one around 3:15 and the Hamilton one wasn't that busy either. 226s weren't busy either though. Was good to see a nice 65 plate decker on a 21 in East Kilbride though and certainly a lot of Streetlites on 255s and 263s

I don’t get the hate with the Streetlites I think they’re nice enough buses. It’s nice to see them around on the 240, 255 and 263. They look really smart in the new livery also - very modern.
 

PaulMc7

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2019
Messages
4,029
I don’t get the hate with the Streetlites I think they’re nice enough buses. It’s nice to see them around on the 240, 255 and 263. They look really smart in the new livery also - very modern.

They're not my favourite as they can make a lot of rattling noises when they're stationary but not terrible either. Used to pop up on the 8 and 90 a lot when they were first used
 

Jordan Adam

Established Member
Joined
12 Sep 2017
Messages
5,514
Location
Aberdeen
I don’t get the hate with the Streetlites I think they’re nice enough buses. It’s nice to see them around on the 240, 255 and 263. They look really smart in the new livery also - very modern.

Come ride ours, you'll quickly learn why they're so hated! Totally unsuitable as a replacement to full size singles.
 

PaulMc7

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2019
Messages
4,029
Anyone know when to expect the new timetables to be on First's website? Only 3 weeks until the changes now
 

Top