First Greater Glasgow

[PaulMc7]

If there is little difference between singles and returns, is that not penalising those buying singles?

Yes it is. I never said it wasn't though.

 

[RomeoCharlie71]

Yes it is. I never said it wasn't though.

Tell us how you'd structure a fare scheme in a city like Glasgow then. My ears are open to your ideas.

 

[jcf5561]

£17 for a weekly isn't that bad, most places are on par or far worse..

I never said it was! I said not everybody can afford to part with £17 every week(ie: people on low incomes/unemployed). These are the folks who have to rely on single fares but with single fares being extortionate in Glasgow they sometimes even struggle to pay them.

 

[Stan Drews]

Yes, I read your post, in which you suggested that some folks can’t afford to pay for a Weekly/Monthly ticket upfront, and therefore had to buy singles. I simply pointed out that day tickets also usually offer good value, so not always ‘forced’ to buy singles. Not sure which part I didn’t make clear first time, but hopefully clarified now.

 

[PaulMc7]

Tell us how you'd structure a fare scheme in a city like Glasgow then. My ears are open to your ideas.

Would make the short hop single at least from an area to the end of the next one- £1.50

City single- £2
Network single- £3
City all day- £3.50
Network all day-£5

Weekly- £12
Network weekly-£17

4 weekly city-£35
4 weekly network- £55

10 weekly city- £75
10 weekly network-£120

As someone who used to be on universal credit this is where the basis of the pricing comes from. With how many people are on low income/unemployed you need fares to drop a fair chunk

 

[Stan Drews]

Would make the short hop single at least from an area to the end of the next one- £1.50

City single- £2
Network single- £3
City all day- £3.50
Network all day-£5

Weekly- £12
Network weekly-£17

4 weekly city-£35
4 weekly network- £55

10 weekly city- £75
10 weekly network-£120

As someone who used to be on universal credit this is where the basis of the pricing comes from. With how many people are on low income/unemployed you need fares to drop a fair chunk

Have you estimated the likely increase in passenger numbers that would be required to maintain current revenues?

If there is likely to be a gap, how would suggest bridging that financial gap?

 

[PaulMc7]

Have you estimated the likely increase in passenger numbers that would be required to maintain current revenues?

If there is likely to be a gap, how would suggest bridging that financial gap?

Best way to bridge any gap is knocking the high frequency services down a bus. For example 8 mins to 10, 10 to 12 etc. As far as the first question goes you'll bridge it considerably as the service is more affordable plus for example if the running cost was £35 an hour which is a figure mentioned on here before to cover that in the city you'd need 10 all days or 7 for the network services which is certainly doable. Even every single fare contributes so you may not even need those 10 and 7 figures. Also still a fair few purchases of weeklys around down my way so that eats a great deal into it. 3 an hour on a city zone bus would cover that even if you took nothing else.

Obviously the other thing you could do to strategically run services is with consultation so you know exactly what people want. Seen it a fair few times where I've used a bus that's fairly frequent end to end that's fairly empty the whole way that probably didn't need to run

 

[Jordan Adam]

I never said it was! I said not everybody can afford to part with £17 every week(ie: people on low incomes/unemployed). These are the folks who have to rely on single fares but with single fares being extortionate in Glasgow they sometimes even struggle to pay them.

And i never said you said it was . I was just making a point in addition to what you said. I get your point regarding single fares, but truth be told if single fares were slashed most service would no longer be viable. Not to repeat what has already been said but the sole reason they're so high is down to the concessionary scheme.

 

[overthewater]

I also think PaulMC7 is forgetting about the Subway and the Train network in Glasgow which makes it alot harder to complete.

 

[PaulMc7]

I also think PaulMC7 is forgetting about the Subway and the Train network in Glasgow which makes it alot harder to complete.

Believe me I'm not forgetting. Used the subway a lot growing up as a few of my family members are Partick based and I stay within 5 mins of 2 train stations

 

[Stena Galloway]

Why would you need a consultation to get rid of quiet buses? Ticket machines store this data. Why do you think services get cut?

 

[PaulMc7]

Why would you need a consultation to get rid of quiet buses? Ticket machines store this data. Why do you think services get cut?

You could use consultations to find out what people need and when allowing you to make more money

 

[Stena Galloway]

Have you ever been to a consultation on bus services?

 

[PaulMc7]

Have you ever been to a consultation on bus services?

Personally no

 

[overthewater]

Why would you need a consultation to get rid of quiet buses? Ticket machines store this data. Why do you think services get cut?

Sometimes those machines lie, its been proven they have done so on too many occasions.

 

[Stena Galloway]

Sometimes those machines lie, its been proven they have done so on too many occasions.

So every service that has been cut on ticket machine information was wrong?
Can you give examples of said services being cut?

 

[PaulMc7]

Sometimes those machines lie, its been proven they have done so on too many occasions.

Back in January when the X1 was last under threat to be cut in February there was a few instances where the ticket machines weren't even working on the bus from what I've seen people mention. I'm always cautious of what people say online but it wasn't just once or twice people mentioned it so for once I do wonder

 

[Stena Galloway]

Personally no

Next time you see there's a bus consultation I suggest you go. You will see some of the ideas the public throw out there. For every 1 good idea you get theres 100 bad ones.

 

[PaulMc7]

Next time you see there's a bus consultation I suggest you go. You will see some of the ideas the public throw out there. For every 1 good idea you get theres 100 bad ones.

Yeah some people do say wild things that I absolutely agree with. The thing is though good ideas are out there. One that springs to mind was extending the 57 every 2nd bus when it went to Auchinairn Road on through Briarcroft, Glendale and Robroyston Asda when the 19A was cut. Apparently First just shot that reason down. Shame as well because the X2 turned out to be such a waste from what I seen of it. Carried fresh air more than anything I've seen

 

[Stena Galloway]

Yeah some people do say wild things that I absolutely agree with. The thing is though good ideas are out there. One that springs to mind was extending the 57 every 2nd bus when it went to Auchinairn Road on through Briarcroft, Glendale and Robroyston Asda when the 19A was cut. Apparently First just shot that reason down. Shame as well because the X2 turned out to be such a waste from what I seen of it. Carried fresh air more than anything I've seen

That will probably mean more buses being put on to the 57 which maybe won't be justified with the passengers numbers it takes to Asda.
Also Robroyston now has its train station. Maybe First where trying to compete more with the train by offering an express service.

 

[Stan Drews]

Best way to bridge any gap is knocking the high frequency services down a bus. For example 8 mins to 10, 10 to 12 etc. As far as the first question goes you'll bridge it considerably as the service is more affordable plus for example if the running cost was £35 an hour which is a figure mentioned on here before to cover that in the city you'd need 10 all days or 7 for the network services which is certainly doable. Even every single fare contributes so you may not even need those 10 and 7 figures. Also still a fair few purchases of weeklys around down my way so that eats a great deal into it. 3 an hour on a city zone bus would cover that even if you took nothing else.

Obviously the other thing you could do to strategically run services is with consultation so you know exactly what people want. Seen it a fair few times where I've used a bus that's fairly frequent end to end that's fairly empty the whole way that probably didn't need to run

I’m not sure going to the boss and suggesting to slash fares and cut the frequencies on the most popular routes is likely to go the way that you might be envisaging!

Lets just consider day and weekly City tickets, as an example.
Current 4.70 day ticket sales per month = 50,000 >> Revenue = £235,000
Current 17.50 weekly ticket sales per month = 20,000 >> Revenue = £350,000
Therefore total monthly revenue of £585,000

New revenue from existing 50,000 day ticket sales @ 3.50 = £175,000
New revenue from existing 20,000 weekly ticket sales @ 12.00 = £240,000
Therefore total monthly revenue from existing sales would become £415,000

That means that you have to generate £170,000 worth of NEW business every month just to maintain your current revenues. That would need to be just over a 40% increase in passenger numbers. Alternatively you could cut 4,857 operating hours every month, although I’m not sure how on earth you’d carry all your new passengers if services were being slashed to that extent.

Bearing in mind that is likely to be a very conservative estimate of existing First Glasgow monthly revenues, and only uses two ticket examples, I hope that perhaps illustrates the magnitude of the challenge faced when you propose reducing fares by significant margins.

 

[overthewater]

So every service that has been cut on ticket machine information was wrong?
Can you give examples of said services being cut?

Plenty of examples, A few of them were from First group, in connection with Edinburgh routes. The fact is just making any judgement on ticket machines alone is not the worlds best idea. Using your eyes is, if you do this you might see other things the machines don't or you might spot a chance to provide some sort of replacement.

 

[PaulMc7]

That will probably mean more buses being put on to the 57 which maybe won't be justified with the passengers numbers it takes to Asda.
Also Robroyston now has its train station. Maybe First where trying to compete more with the train by offering an express service.

Yeah I definitely think that was the plan but definitely wasn't a clever one when local politicians had already taken the complaints from the residents regarding the fact the ones who weren't able bodied couldn't get from Glendale to Provanmill and Royston Road and ones further along Royston Road had to get 2 buses to get to Asda which I can understand tbh given that the 8 is every 30 mins. The main problem I found with the route idea of extending the 57 is the reliability more than anything. The route is pretty big as it is. Would maybe work with the 87 as it's shorter but the 87/88/89 set interwork. Only way interworking wouldn't be a problem is if they stopped that completely to allow flexibility

 

[Jordan Adam]

So every service that has been cut on ticket machine information was wrong?
Can you give examples of said services being cut?

Not directly Glasgow however it's happened in Aberdeen a number of times. Particularly where drivers have just waved concession pass users on rather then getting them to put their card on the machine. Likewise prior to the Ticketer Machines being introduced there was issues with drivers not counting passengers with day/weekly tickets etc. Other operators are known to have had similar issues, there's been a number of instances where people have complained at local forum meetings about a certain service frequently running full and leaving people behind (with evidence of this), yet when Stagecoach check their ticket machine data the same services are often shown as carrying less people than they actually were.

Ticket machine data can give you an idea of service levels, but you really need to see the services in person and consult with residents drivers to get a true idea.

 

[Stena Galloway]

Yeah I definitely think that was the plan but definitely wasn't a clever one when local politicians had already taken the complaints from the residents regarding the fact the ones who weren't able bodied couldn't get from Glendale to Provanmill and Royston Road and ones further along Royston Road had to get 2 buses to get to Asda which I can understand tbh given that the 8 is every 30 mins. The main problem I found with the route idea of extending the 57 is the reliability more than anything. The route is pretty big as it is. Would maybe work with the 87 as it's shorter but the 87/88/89 set interwork. Only way interworking wouldn't be a problem is if they stopped that completely to allow flexibility

I'm just having a look at the 57 timetable just now. Is the service interworked with anything else? The 10 possibly? When I used to drive it you where a 56 leaving Auchinairn then changed to a 57 at the bus stop on Peat Road before going into the Pollok Centre (Silverburn)

 

[PaulMc7]

I’m not sure going to the boss and suggesting to slash fares and cut the frequencies on the most popular routes is likely to go the way that you might be envisaging!

Lets just consider day and weekly City tickets, as an example.
Current 4.70 day ticket sales per month = 50,000 >> Revenue = £235,000
Current 17.50 weekly ticket sales per month = 20,000 >> Revenue = £350,000
Therefore total monthly revenue of £585,000

New revenue from existing 50,000 day ticket sales @ 3.50 = £175,000
New revenue from existing 20,000 weekly ticket sales @ 12.00 = £240,000
Therefore total monthly revenue from existing sales would become £415,000

That means that you have to generate £170,000 worth of NEW business every month just to maintain your current revenues. That would need to be just over a 40% increase in passenger numbers. Alternatively you could cut 4,857 operating hours every month, although I’m not sure how on earth you’d carry all your new passengers if services were being slashed to that extent.

Bearing in mind that is likely to be a very conservative estimate of existing First Glasgow monthly revenues, and only uses two ticket examples, I hope that perhaps illustrates the magnitude of the challenge faced when you propose reducing fares by significant margins.

This is what I'm saying with cutting some frequencies down. There's been times where even with the likes of an 18 I've been on it and I've been close to the only person on it for most of the journey. That would tell me that you don't need that bus on whatsoever. The way I see it is that running 2 buses with say 15 passengers is worse than 1 with 30 given the fact that the lone bus still wouldn't even be full if it was a single decker let alone double. I say this confidently as someone who's been in the position. Targeting low income/ unemployed people with a fare reduction across the board is the way the bus can get more competitive because as unfortunate as the whole concession subsidy situation is it won't change.

Remember as well that if you can get running costs down more than the revenue too you'd still make a bigger profit in the end. Obviously in an ideal world you could get profits up because of revenue going up but given how worse off people are likely to be because of the current situation not to mention it could get worse keeping things as they are is only going to make things worse than predicted not better.

I remember when I was on universal credit I ended up cutting down how much I went out because of the fact a 4 weekly pass was around 20% of my monthly money. I stayed with my mum at the time so I wasn't even in the worst situation compared to others on it.

 

[PaulMc7]

I'm just having a look at the 57 timetable just now. Is the service interworked with anything else? The 10 possibly? When I used to drive it you where a 56 leaving Auchinairn then changed to a 57 at the bus stop on Peat Road before going into the Pollok Centre (Silverburn)

I'm not 100% sure tbh. Been at Silverburn a lot and there has been times where the 10/57 have changed into each other at the bus station but then there's other times where it just sat and left as the same service again

When I went to Cardonald College for 2 years 2013-2015 they swapped into each other every single time and it made for such horrendous reliability to the point it was easier and less stressful to walk up to Cardonald Morrison's for a 9/9A

 

[Stan Drews]

Targeting low income/ unemployed people with a fare reduction across the board is the way the bus can get more competitive because as unfortunate as the whole concession subsidy situation is it won't change.

There may well be some merit in fare schemes that provide some benefit to people in those categories, however significant across the board fare reductions is definitely not the way to go about it. That just dramatically erodes you’re existing revenues and would be commercial suicide!

 

[PaulMc7]

There may well be some merit in fare schemes that provide some benefit to people in those categories, however significant across the board fare reductions is definitely not the way to go about it. That just dramatically erodes you’re existing revenues and would be commercial suicide!

Out of interest of another perspective what would you suggest differently? If there wasn't as much competition in Glasgow the current fare system would be reasonable but when there's other alternatives as viable as the subway, rail etc then it needs to drop. If First's offering of a service was absolutely top quality then maybe it would be worth the price but again that's something that needs a lot of work too

 

[awsnews]

I'm just having a look at the 57 timetable just now. Is the service interworked with anything else? The 10 possibly? When I used to drive it you where a 56 leaving Auchinairn then changed to a 57 at the bus stop on Peat Road before going into the Pollok Centre (Silverburn)

There is interworking between the 57 and the 10.