First Greater Glasgow

[TheGrandWazoo]

If it happened earlier it might have especially given that the bus only takes 25 mins to the city centre from Hamilton town centre. Also worth noting that the train goes nowhere near Buchanan Bus Station from Hamilton so it's not as direct competition compared to what some other services have to deal with. It's a form of competition but it's not like it's majorly favourable compared to the X1. The "I wouldn't be seen dead on a bus" attitude definitely plays a part here too but in Glasgow the biggest contributors to that are First

First need to do a ton of work to give people a reason to use their services and building a good customer relationship is the place to start with that. When you have Stagecoach announcing changes to the public 9/10 weeks before they plan to make them and with a couple of weeks to give feedback there's no excuse for First not to do it. With social media use etc there's no real excuse anymore for First not to use it better

I think your views on First ref:consultations and social media have been received and understood.

 

[PaulMc7]

According to Councillor David Watsons Facebook post from yesterday there's a call between politicians and First on Friday regarding the 31.

Councillor David Watson

I will be participating in a cross party call, organised by the Chief Executive of South Lanarkshire Council, with First Bus on Friday afternoon but do not hold out a lot of hope for First Bus...

www.facebook.com

 

[route101]

According to Councillor David Watsons Facebook post from yesterday there's a call between politicians and First on Friday regarding the 31.

Councillor David Watson

I will be participating in a cross party call, organised by the Chief Executive of South Lanarkshire Council, with First Bus on Friday afternoon but do not hold out a lot of hope for First Bus...

www.facebook.com

I seen that. The loss of the 31 has been a big blow for me , ive had to switch to 6 or train, ok if its dry but when its wet or snow m no going to be fun.

Can see the 205 or M1 being looped around the area. In reality its the city centre link thats needed , even if it was at peaks only. Someone suggested running the 6 around Stewartfield , not sure how you do that with timetabling, could be an evening option.

 

[PaulMc7]

I seen that. The loss of the 31 has been a big blow for me , ive had to switch to 6 or train, ok if its dry but when its wet or snow m no going to be fun.

Can see the 205 or M1 being looped around the area. In reality its the city centre link thats needed , even if it was at peaks only. Someone suggested running the 6 around Stewartfield , not sure how you do that with timetabling, could be an evening option.

Could split it how the 7/7A split at Toryglen. Split at Philipshill then 4 buses an hour through Westwood and 2 an hour through the 31 route. Only problem is then people from Castlemilk/Carmunnock have a long way around just to get to East Kilbride. Only other thing would be to extend 2 75s an hour but then that has the longer way around Castlemilk into the city centre

 

[overthewater]

I think the councillor is an idiot, he clearly wants the driver to driver the bus for peanuts, while he also thinks first would win any SPT contract, bar the fact the evening service is now operated by a different company, which doesn't even go to East Kilbride, does SPT not think it's worth operating?

Could split it how the 7/7A split at Toryglen. Split at Philipshill then 4 buses an hour through Westwood and 2 an hour through the 31 route. Only problem is then people from Castlemilk/Carmunnock have a long way around just to get to East Kilbride. Only other thing would be to extend 2 75s an hour but then that has the longer way around Castlemilk into the city centre

Again where is this bus going to come from and who is going to pay for it?

 

[PaulMc7]

I think the cllr is an idiot, he clearly wants the driver to driver the bus for peanuts, while he also thinks first would win any SPT contract, bar the fact the evening service is now operated different company, which doesn't even go to East Kilbride does SPT not think its worth operating?



Again where is this bus going to come from and who is going to pay for it?

If you go with the 6 option I suggested it wouldn't change anything really in terms of what's needed. Dare I say it even cut the 2 buses through the 31 route at the town centre and not Calderwood. Think the evening service was cut to Carmunnock because of First doing it too tbh with the daytime service plus the money trouble SPT had might have had a lot to do with it

I'm sure there's a viable option out there but Friday will tell if it can be found.

Also worth noting too that a cut to the 6 in Calderwood wouldn't do that much either from experience. Got a friend that stays right at the terminus and at times even if it was every 20 mins it wouldn't be that busy to the town centre plus the 21 also operates through that end of Calderwood too.

First need to find ways of making services work without getting councillors etc onto their backs by alienating areas pretty quickly or passenger numbers overall will be lucky to be anywhere near 80% of pre-Covid figures

 

[PaulMc7]

Andy Preece site has the SPT tenders switching back to First on the 23rd. SPT site also has the changes confirmed

 

[156478]

I think the councillor is an idiot, he clearly wants the driver to driver the bus for peanuts, while he also thinks first would win any SPT contract, bar the fact the evening service is now operated by a different company, which doesn't even go to East Kilbride, does SPT not think it's worth operating?



Again where is this bus going to come from and who is going to pay for it?

Agreed on all points.

he makes all the obligatory uninformed politician cheap shots at First while not having a clue whatsoever about operating costs and how revenue has to cover the costs and the usual subsidies war cry.

East Kilbride and especially the areas served by the 31 are bad bus operating territory. Look at Stewartfield on google maps, it’s all Low rise houses spread out loosely in an area full of cul de sacs and virtually every house there has a driveway and at least one car.

There’s no chance in hell First will extend the 5 or 75 down to cover it as he has suggested- they lost money on the 31, but magically extending a 75 will cover it’s costs.

diverting a 6 to cover it isn’t much of a good fix either. The existing route is already a magical mystery tour of East Kilbride as it is and the route into Glasgow after that is as slow as a week in solitary confinement

SPT are skint, so the prospects are not great sadly.

 

[PaulMc7]

Agreed on all points.

he makes all the obligatory uninformed politician cheap shots at First while not having a clue whatsoever about operating costs and how revenue has to cover the costs and the usual subsidies war cry.

East Kilbride and especially the areas served by the 31 are bad bus operating territory. Look at Stewartfield on google maps, it’s all Low rise houses spread out loosely in an area full of cul de sacs and virtually every house there has a driveway and at least one car.

There’s no chance in hell First will extend the 5 or 75 down to cover it as he has suggested- they lost money on the 31, but magically extending a 75 will cover it’s costs.

diverting a 6 to cover it isn’t much of a good fix either. The existing route is already a magical mystery tour of East Kilbride as it is and the route into Glasgow after that is as slow as a week in solitary confinement

SPT are skint, so the prospects are not great sadly.

What I suggested was based on what you could do given the Castlemilk buses not exactly what I think will happen. The best bet I see is a local service that offers a link to everything else and if you don't want to lose anyone else on top of that it's the very least that they need to do. I agree on East Kilbride being a horrible area for bus operation though despite it being a town with 75000 people and increasing due to the number of new houses popping up in areas like Lindsayfield and near the Whirlies

 

[Brimfulofasha]

Just thought I should give my impressions as a non-local of First’s Glasgow network. I’ve just been there for a few days, so just a snapshot really.

Thanks for your thoughts - hope you enjoyed your time in Glasgow!

I was disappointed with the app. I did buy a paper day ticket on one day, which worked fine. But another day I thought I’d try buying it on the app. The app itself is good I think, clear and easy to use. In practice however, every bus I went on was unable to scan my phone properly, and I’m not sure why (you scan the QR code on the ticket on your phone, just like you have to do with the paper ticket). It seems other passengers were having this problem. Most drivers just waved me on, some had a look at it, and other drivers thought it was invalid or it was the wrong ticket with one being quite rude. So, it was a bit of a hassle, and I think that would put some passengers off using the bus again, especially if they are anxious people. I’ll use the paper one next time!

The app is something I'm still so undecided about tbh. Sometimes it works perfectly but then sometimes tickets just don't scan and buses ...

I installed the app in January 2018 when they lowered the prices significantly, compared to the 10-week paper version. I have to say, the app's reliability for me has been excellent. In 2.5 years of using it 4 out of 10 days (very rough calculation: 730 times), it has only failed me twice where I had to pay by cash or card (i.e. paying twice!) Also love the function that allows me to save and name my most frequently used bus stops to view the 'next buses' at them. Never had an issue with scanning, even in rain, and enjoy the 4-letter 'security'(?) word each day - today was FROG, having watched a Muppet's DVD the night before!

And as regards unhappy drivers, I get the impression most of them don't particularly enjoy their job or find it fulfilling. Perhaps not surprising with the lovely Glasgow clientele at times, bad drivers (people parking in bus stops are the worst, buses should be allowed to shunt them in my opinion!), how well the company treats them and fairly low wages (train drivers for example who are higher paid but don't deal with the public). The fact that when I do get a friendly or personable driver, I notice it, goes to show that it's not the norm in what is a customer service role.

 

[PaulMc7]

Thanks for your thoughts - hope you enjoyed your time in Glasgow!





I installed the app in January 2018 when they lowered the prices significantly, compared to the 10-week paper version. I have to say, the app's reliability for me has been excellent. In 2.5 years of using it 4 out of 10 days (very rough calculation: 730 times), it has only failed me twice where I had to pay by cash or card (i.e. paying twice!) Also love the function that allows me to save and name my most frequently used bus stops to view the 'next buses' at them. Never had an issue with scanning, even in rain, and enjoy the 4-letter 'security'(?) word each day - today was FROG, having watched a Muppet's DVD the night before!

And as regards unhappy drivers, I get the impression most of them don't particularly enjoy their job or find it fulfilling. Perhaps not surprising with the lovely Glasgow clientele at times, bad drivers (people parking in bus stops are the worst, buses should be allowed to shunt them in my opinion!), how well the company treats them and fairly low wages (train drivers for example who are higher paid but basically stop and go). The fact that when I do get a friendly or personable driver, I notice it, goes to show that it's not the norm in what is a customer service role.

Yeah I would hate to deal with the public when it's come to public transport in Glasgow. I've been quite lucky that personally I've not had to deal with many bad and rude drivers. The parking near me is horrendous and I think a lot of drivers that are on buses through Scotstoun in particular are relieved the bank closed there. It was the absolute worst I've seen for parking in bus stops

 

[PaulMc7]

Trying to think out literally every option that meeting on Friday could throw up regarding the 31 not what I think will happen:

Extensions to a Castlemilk bus
6 reroute
M1 or 205 reroute
SPT subsidy
31 goes hourly
New service to cover the EK end
The area gets cut off completely causing more people to walk away from First
New motorway service via the 31 route to Philipshill and onto the M77

About the only things really and I'd probably say the most likely is either a local service or more people walking away from using First's buses

Would say the X1 options are even fewer than that whenever the next meeting regarding that happens:

Saved but not brought back until unis and colleges are back fully
Becomes a local route in Hamilton only
Goes hourly
Peak only service
Some form of rerouting

Not even seen much in the way of discussion for the X2 or 32 and tbh, Robroyston was lost completely when the 19A cut happened so I doubt even putting the 8 through Glendale would help. The X2 never stood a chance with so few stops on the route and also not going to the Asda but instead straight onto the motorway. The 32 is a weird one because it finishes so early so I doubt that's anything you could actually save. Could have the 8 rerouted but it becomes awkward having to go with the 38 into Ruchazie and then from the 32 route only to come back out just down the road so to me that's a non-starter plus the full route is 2 hrs 15 mins as it is from QEUH to Parkhead

I admit to probably over-analysing things but this is pretty much it. Always interested in trying to analyse every option possible

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Agreed on all points.

he makes all the obligatory uninformed politician cheap shots at First while not having a clue whatsoever about operating costs and how revenue has to cover the costs and the usual subsidies war cry.

East Kilbride and especially the areas served by the 31 are bad bus operating territory. Look at Stewartfield on google maps, it’s all Low rise houses spread out loosely in an area full of cul de sacs and virtually every house there has a driveway and at least one car.

There’s no chance in hell First will extend the 5 or 75 down to cover it as he has suggested- they lost money on the 31, but magically extending a 75 will cover it’s costs.

diverting a 6 to cover it isn’t much of a good fix either. The existing route is already a magical mystery tour of East Kilbride as it is and the route into Glasgow after that is as slow as a week in solitary confinement

SPT are skint, so the prospects are not great sadly.

Very true. The usual politicking by some no-name councillor. As you say, difficult to serve territory and simply getting a different route to serve it is not fundamentally changing the underlying problems.

 

[smtglasgow]

The only solution I can see is if SPT (funding permitting) tender an EK-Castlemilk service – basically a one bus hourly service. If First win then it can be tagged on to the rump of the 31 or to the 75, but if someone else wins then folk can swap to a city bus at Castlemilk. Not ideal, but Stewartfield is dreadful bus territory. The wonder is the 31 lasted as long as it did.

 

[route101]

The only solution I can see is if SPT (funding permitting) tender an EK-Castlemilk service – basically a one bus hourly service. If First win then it can be tagged on to the rump of the 31 or to the 75, but if someone else wins then folk can swap to a city bus at Castlemilk. Not ideal, but Stewartfield is dreadful bus territory. The wonder is the 31 lasted as long as it did.

They have been threatening to ditch the 31 up East Kilbride for years. It has been more stable since the last cuts to it in 2015. Doubful with funding id have SPT fund the 31 to East Kilbride as essential service. I see the 21 is still going up East Kilbride , this was not much busier than the 31.

 

[route101]

Trying to think out literally every option that meeting on Friday could throw up regarding the 31 not what I think will happen:

Extensions to a Castlemilk bus
6 reroute
M1 or 205 reroute
SPT subsidy
31 goes hourly
New service to cover the EK end
The area gets cut off completely causing more people to walk away from First
New motorway service via the 31 route to Philipshill and onto the M77

About the only things really and I'd probably say the most likely is either a local service or more people walking away from using First's buses

Would say the X1 options are even fewer than that whenever the next meeting regarding that happens:

Saved but not brought back until unis and colleges are back fully
Becomes a local route in Hamilton only
Goes hourly
Peak only service
Some form of rerouting

Not even seen much in the way of discussion for the X2 or 32 and tbh, Robroyston was lost completely when the 19A cut happened so I doubt even putting the 8 through Glendale would help. The X2 never stood a chance with so few stops on the route and also not going to the Asda but instead straight onto the motorway. The 32 is a weird one because it finishes so early so I doubt that's anything you could actually save. Could have the 8 rerouted but it becomes awkward having to go with the 38 into Ruchazie and then from the 32 route only to come back out just down the road so to me that's a non-starter plus the full route is 2 hrs 15 mins as it is from QEUH to Parkhead

I admit to probably over-analysing things but this is pretty much it. Always interested in trying to analyse every option possible

Most likely is 205 or M1 reroute or no service is most likely im afraid.

 

[PaulMc7]

Most likely is 205 or M1 reroute or no service is most likely im afraid.

Yeah that's what I think too. Would probably say it's the City Centre to Fernhill that saves the 21 from being cut down. Been times I've got it into EK and been the last person on it after Cathkin Roundabout. Also amazed that the 6 was every 10 mins right up to Covid. Would love to see the stats for how busy it is in EK because from a lot of experience over the last 6/7 years the answer is not very outside of peaks. Not surprised by it tbh out of the places I've been I think I've heard more complaints about First just by either being on a bus or waiting on one in EK.

 

[sannox]

Strange how many passengers have fallen away in EK. I sometimes think the cuts in services have driven away remaining passengers and rather than maintaining the new level of service. The 18 is still busy, but I remember coming up the hill from Cathkin on a 20 which was packed.

 

[PaulMc7]

Strange how many passengers have fallen away in EK. I sometimes think the cuts in services have driven away remaining passengers and rather than maintaining the new level of service. The 18 is still busy, but I remember coming up the hill from Cathkin on a 20 which was packed.

It's definitely a thing that cuts drive away other people on top of those lost who use the service that's been cut. It's why there's full areas First end up cutting. My mum and gran used to take me on the 20 when I was younger into EK from Blairdardie where my gran stayed and you'd be lucky to get a seat for most of the journey. Sad state of affairs now but a lot of it is First's own doing. Seems like the only way you'd get a fair load of people back on buses here is if First weren't operating them

 

[sannox]

The 31 is a strange one. The route - EK-Carmunnock-Castlemilk-Mount Florida-Glasgow is pretty straight and fairly quick. Used to see people in Castlemilk waiting for it in the morning. It should work, but Stewartfield isn't great bus territory and in all honesty parts of the 31 were close to the station.

If SPT were to step in, routes like the 31 are more justifiable, than some of their routes which are nothing more than making sure an area is covered.

Indeed the pandemic and cuts before and after does lead you to wonder if the commercial market is in anyway sustainable.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The 31 is a strange one. The route - EK-Carmunnock-Castlemilk-Mount Florida-Glasgow is pretty straight and fairly quick. Used to see people in Castlemilk waiting for it in the morning. It should work, but Stewartfield isn't great bus territory and in all honesty parts of the 31 were close to the station.

If SPT were to step in, routes like the 31 are more justifiable, than some of their routes which are nothing more than making sure an area is covered.

Indeed the pandemic and cuts before and after does lead you to wonder if the commercial market is in anyway sustainable.

That being said, it's also interesting that Hairmyres and East Kilbride rail stations have also recorded a decline in patronage of c.10% compared to 5 years ago so perhaps it's something a bit wider than just First Bus

 

[PaulMc7]

The train losing passengers at Hairmyres definitely isn't a surprise but at East Kilbride train station it's pretty interesting. I'd imagine an increase in car use influences Hairmyres given it's probably at the well off end of East Kilbride as Gardenhall is right next to it and the hospital can't carry a train service on its own. Definitely think there's been a massive decline in the town centre too. I mean it was still busy the last few times I've been but nothing compared to what it used to be.

Don't think the train is held in high regards either just like First. They both seem fairly hated plus the train is useless to so much of East Kilbride because of where the stations are so if First could find a way to be less hated then maybe it's an area that won't completely crumble compared to other areas

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The train losing passengers at Hairmyres definitely isn't a surprise but at East Kilbride train station it's pretty interesting. I'd imagine an increase in car use influences Hairmyres given it's probably at the well off end of East Kilbride as Gardenhall is right next to it and the hospital can't carry a train service on its own. Definitely think there's been a massive decline in the town centre too. I mean it was still busy the last few times I've been but nothing compared to what it used to be.

Don't think the train is held in high regards either just like First. They both seem fairly hated plus the train is useless to so much of East Kilbride because of where the stations are so if First could find a way to be less hated then maybe it's an area that won't completely crumble compared to other areas

East Kilbride, like lots of new towns, is difficult to serve. Also, we're seeing across the country, the impact of reduced footfall on the high street and Covid has just turbo charged that transition from bricks and mortar to online retailing (and working for that matter) as @sannox rightly highlighted in their post.

 

[PaulMc7]

East Kilbride, like lots of new towns, is difficult to serve. Also, we're seeing across the country, the impact of reduced footfall on the high street and Covid has just turbo charged that transition from bricks and mortar to online retailing (and working for that matter) as @sannox rightly highlighted in their post.

Yeah it's a tough situation and I don't envy anyone trying to plan routes and use resources especially Firstgroup given that they were in the pits as a business before Covid. Can see a massive government funding package needing to be created across Scotland tbh and fairly soon because what's been done so far can only stretch so far.

Could see having longer routes again merging shorter ones together and a lot of frequency cuts being a smart way to save. Reliability may be the problem with that but given that even shorter routes in Glasgow have reliability issues then it's unavoidable

 

[smtglasgow]

I’ve wondered for a while if there wasn’t a market for an express bus from EK into Glasgow. Central Scottish used to run a few different ones in the 1980s, so not a new idea. Remember Stagecoach had a go with an X1 (can’t remember the route, but probably covered a lot of the current 18). Now that the Cathkin bypass has been completed, something like an X18 might work – although there isn’t really any road from EK that doesn’t get jammed up in the mornings. Might only work in the peaks, but a lot of EK is too far from the station to make the train viable. Downside of this is the fact that the 18 does so well because it gets hammered through Dalmarnock – you’d still need to provide the capacity in the peaks through here.

 

[PaulMc7]

Pretty sure First had an X11 and X12 peak service to East Kilbride but don't remember the route or anything

I'm surprised some of the peak 21s aren't used to create a quicker service via the bypass but then Fernhill can be a big drop off for passengers at peaks so probably needs to keep all capacity it can. Also surprised the 21 wasn't renumbered to tie in with the 18 given that they both cover Greenhills, EK town centre, Calderwood, Cathkin and Rutherglen so joint branding could maybe have worked although unless you knew the full route of each it could get confusing as both cover different parts of certain areas

Could have easily been renumbered to an 18A tbh

 

[PaulMc7]

Wonder how this will go down tbh given that there's already been issues regarding schools and getting to them because of First. I'd probably have just said for everyone to check their journey beforehand instead of specifically mentioning school journeys. As far as it goes school journeys are essential

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I’ve wondered for a while if there wasn’t a market for an express bus from EK into Glasgow. Central Scottish used to run a few different ones in the 1980s, so not a new idea. Remember Stagecoach had a go with an X1 (can’t remember the route, but probably covered a lot of the current 18). Now that the Cathkin bypass has been completed, something like an X18 might work – although there isn’t really any road from EK that doesn’t get jammed up in the mornings. Might only work in the peaks, but a lot of EK is too far from the station to make the train viable. Downside of this is the fact that the 18 does so well because it gets hammered through Dalmarnock – you’d still need to provide the capacity in the peaks through here.

I think you've answered your own question! There's a competing rail service that will appeal to a number anyway so it's a difficult one. And with First looking to axe the X1, another peak only service is probably not what they want or need.

 

[sannox]

Stagecoach did express buses to East Kilbride. The age old problem is there is no fast road (that is uncongested) from EK to Town that would give you a good time saving, unlike the buses from Cumbernauld, Erskine, Linwood, Pollok. The M74 from Rutherglen might save you a wee bit of time, but it would be marginal.

You'd be best running limited stop through Rutherglen etc, which isn't a terrible idea for some peak services depending on time savings. Arguably, I'd say via Castlemilk is probably fastest at peaks.

 

[lastbus]

Wonder how this will go down tbh given that there's already been issues regarding schools and getting to them because of First. I'd probably have just said for everyone to check their journey beforehand instead of specifically mentioning school journeys. As far as it goes school journeys are essential

There are dedicated school journeys running don’t know which routes though. Social distancing is not required on these buses.