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First Greater Glasgow

CM

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As far as I’m aware a single-deck MAN chassis isnt available underneath any of ADL bus atm, as far as Scanias website shows, the Enviro 300 body is still whats used on top of there N250UD chassis, but I highly suspect Lothian have ordered B8RLE singles with a 200/400MMC body variant to replace alot of there euro3/4 eclipes so its can be done.

I do really think the Eclipse B7RLE’s glasgow have will still out last the enviros!

You have never been able to get the Enviro 300 body on the N250UD chassis... The N250UD chassis is used for double deckers and is generally fitted with the ADL Enviro 400 bodywork.
 
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Gingerbus1991

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A B8 may be better than a B7 but it won't touch a Streetlite, Metrocity or ADL e200mmc. That is the reality of it and explains why so very, very few B8RLEs have been sold in the UK. In addition, as First have found out, when Volvo vehicles head out of warranty, the cost of parts etc is exorbitant. Yes, a B7RLE maybe more robust than a similar aged e300 and need fewer replacement parts but when they do go wrong, they are very expensive to repair.
I have a hard time thinking that this is the case when Lothian have a near entire volvo fleet, volvo have been a large part of first orders for more years than can sink a battle ship, Stagecoach have even ordered B8s in the Fens as well.

The biggest cost is for engine maintenence but not the cost of parts, most bus builders use the same parts to build there buses, Knorr bremse for example is the company that Wrights and ADL use for the Air compressors in there buses, parts for bus engine can be purchased at the same cost, Bosch makes alot a sensors which can be fitted to both cummins and volvo engines.
The big saving in modern buses are engine and gearbox oil changes for example Cummins 6.7ltr uses roughly 17 litres of oil where as the volvoz D8K unit uses roughly 25 litres, same issue when is comes to Voith and ZF gearboxes, the Voith uses less trans oil than ZFs Ecolife does, the smaller tires on the 300's 19.5inch wheels are cheaper to replace than the larger ones found on 22.5inch wheels of heavy chassis buses.

To be competitive engine manufacturers/bus builders have to have relatively similar prices of repair etc to be viable to any buyer
 
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Gingerbus1991

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You have never been able to get the Enviro 300 body on the N250UD chassis... The N250UD chassis is used for double deckers and is generally fitted with the ADL Enviro 400 bodywork.
Let me rephrase, Scania replaced the N94"UD"/N94"UB" chassis in the UK market with the euro5 N230UD/UB.

for euro6 ADL dont commercially advertise a Scania single deck option atm but will still build an Enviro 300 Bodied version if personally approached to do so on a N250/280UB diesel only or a N280UB Gas Single Decker.
The 300 body isnt placed over any Cummins engined integral chassis anymore.
The attached screenshot shows Scanias options atm and body.
It is only speculation, I suppose on my part, but as I've said before lothian will most likely take delivery of some kind of B8RLE chassis'd/Enviro 200 bodied bus with a 400MMC front design, they placed an order for there Plaxton Panthers for Lothian Motor Coaches at which time they've said there changing to ADL for some bus orders next year(2019), being the fact Lothian use Volvo now I cant see them taking any Cummins engined bus.

What I'm getting at here, even though ADL dont commertially advertise using the B8RLE or Scania UB chassis atm its highly the case that if an operator asks a bus builder for a particular chassis/body combo and if there is a sale to be made for a substatial order bus builders such as wrights or ADL will definitely try and build it!
 

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goldisgood

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I have a hard time thinking that this is the case when Lothian have a near entire volvo fleet, volvo have been a large part of first orders for more years than can sink a battle ship, Stagecoach have even ordered B8s in the Fens as well.

The biggest cost is for engine maintenence but not the cost of parts, most bus builders use the same parts to build there buses, Knorr bremse for example is the company that Wrights and ADL use for the Air compressors in there buses, parts for bus engine can be purchased at the same cost, Bosch makes alot a sensors which can be fitted to both cummins and volvo engines.
The big saving in modern buses are engine and gearbox oil changes for example Cummins 6.7ltr uses roughly 17 litres of oil where as the volvoz D8K unit uses roughly 25 litres, same issue when is comes to Voith and ZF gearboxes, the Voith uses less trans oil than ZFs Ecolife does, the smaller tires on the 300's 19.5inch wheels are cheaper to replace than the larger ones found on 22.5inch wheels of heavy chassis buses.

To be competitive engine manufacturers/bus builders have to have relatively similar prices of repair etc to be viable to any buyer
This is because the buses have to be able to be fitted with guide wheels, and the B8s can be fitted with guide wheels.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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This is because the buses have to be able to be fitted with guide wheels, and the B8s can be fitted with guide wheels.
Exactly! These are the only Stagecoach examples and for that reason.

AFAIK, Arriva have had none save for a long term demo, First don't have any, Go Ahead don't have any save for some inherited with EYMS and don't think NatEx's bus ops have. So I find it hard to believe that most of the bus industry is wrong whilst Lothian, TrentBarton and Delaine are the ones getting it right

The fact is that First obviously did specify Volvos for many years, whether that be B7TLs/B9TLs or B10BLEs/B7RLEs. However, since 2012, they have received very few and notably, some of the last B7RLEs in 2012/3 were for the South Hants Eclipse services and have since been replaced by e200mmcs. The reason for this is that Volvos, in comparison with e200mmc and Streetlites, are heavy on fuel - that is the major saving not the oil in gearbox and engine changes. If you're burning an extra 50 litres of fuel a day, it equates to an extra £15k a year or so. That is why the industry has gone for lighter, more fuel efficient vehicles and First have recorded e200mmc on urban work returning over 9mpg - much better than a heavyweight vehicle.

Whilst you can buy some parts "off the shelf", most of those heavy duty components are inherently more expensive and, as is being experienced now with ageing B7RLEs, major unit failure IS costing a small fortune.

Don't get me wrong - I much prefer a B7RLE than a Streetlite max or even an e200mmc but there's a reason why the industry has changed.
 

overthewater

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Of course the lothians ones are for East Coast Buses for Heavy duty work going down the A1, said buses are getting hammered.
 

JonnyB1984

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As far as I’m aware a single-deck MAN chassis isnt available underneath any of ADL bus atm, as far as Scanias website shows, the Enviro 300 body is still whats used on top of there N250UD chassis, but I highly suspect Lothian have ordered B8RLE singles with a 200/400MMC body variant to replace alot of there euro3/4 eclipes so its can be done.

I do really think the Eclipse B7RLE’s glasgow have will still out last the enviros!

I guess that the B7s will be out of Glasgow within the next few years and transferred elsewhere due to LEZ. I remember fine well when Glasgow got their 05 plate darts and that was the same story .... the B10s will outlast them etc etc. The 05 plate darts to this day are still great buses and easily have another 4-5 years in them. They could do with the seats being redone possibly with e-leather to match the 06 batch.
 

CM

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Let me rephrase, Scania replaced the N94"UD"/N94"UB" chassis in the UK market with the euro5 N230UD/UB.

for euro6 ADL dont commercially advertise a Scania single deck option atm but will still build an Enviro 300 Bodied version if personally approached to do so on a N250/280UB diesel only or a N280UB Gas Single Decker.
The 300 body isnt placed over any Cummins engined integral chassis anymore.
The attached screenshot shows Scanias options atm and body.
It is only speculation, I suppose on my part, but as I've said before lothian will most likely take delivery of some kind of B8RLE chassis'd/Enviro 200 bodied bus with a 400MMC front design, they placed an order for there Plaxton Panthers for Lothian Motor Coaches at which time they've said there changing to ADL for some bus orders next year(2019), being the fact Lothian use Volvo now I cant see them taking any Cummins engined bus
What I'm getting at here, even though ADL dont commertially advertise using the B8RLE or Scania UB chassis atm its highly the case that if an operator asks a bus builder for a particular chassis/body combo and if there is a sale to be made for a substatial order bus builders such as wrights or ADL will definitely try and build it!

STILL incorrect. The Scania N230UB or N230UD chassis has NEVER been available with ADL Enviro 300 bodywork! It's only ever been available with ADL Enviro 400 bodywork. The Enviro 300 body was fitted to the Scania K230UB chassis only. The ONLY single decker ever to have the N94UD and/or N230UB chassis was the OmniCity single decker. The only other single decker N94UB/N230UB chassis bodied as single deckers had bodywork by East Lancs.
 

Gingerbus1991

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STILL incorrect. The Scania N230UB or N230UD chassis has NEVER been available with ADL Enviro 300 bodywork! It's only ever been available with ADL Enviro 400 bodywork. The Enviro 300 body was fitted to the Scania K230UB chassis only. The ONLY single decker ever to have the N94UD and/or N230UB chassis was the OmniCity single decker. The only other single decker N94UB/N230UB chassis bodied as single deckers had bodywork by East Lancs.
For all intended purposes, whether the designated chassis coding begun with N or K or showed UB Or UD the only difference was the length of chassis wheelbase or the way in which Scanias 9.3 engine was situated at the rear, they are to say the least variants of the same ethos.

Bottom line and the point I am making, if asked to do it, manufacturers will do it.

Albeit I have read before an article that explaned a Wright Streetdeck body made scania chassis to unstable.
 

CM

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For all intended purposes, whether the designated chassis coding begun with N or K or showed UB Or UD the only difference was the length of chassis wheelbase or the way in which Scanias 9.3 engine was situated at the rear, they are to say the least variants of the same ethos.

Bottom line and the point I am making, if asked to do it, manufacturers will do it.

Albeit I have read before an article that explaned a Wright Streetdeck body made scania chassis to unstable.

It's still a difference and saying the Enviro 300 body was on the N230UB chassis, like you did is STILL WRONG. Why can't you just accept it?!
 

Gingerbus1991

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It's still a difference and saying the Enviro 300 body was on the N230UB chassis, like you did is STILL WRONG. Why can't you just accept it?!
I suppose I should’nt say either that Volvo’s B5TL uses Streetdeck Bodywork? Is saying that to ostentatious for most?

Oh sorry, when fitted to a Volvo chassis it becomes a “Gemini”!!

Get Away.
 

CM

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I suppose I should’nt say either that Volvo’s B5TL uses Streetdeck Bodywork? Is saying that to ostentatious for most?

Oh sorry, when fitted to a Volvo chassis it becomes a “Gemini”!!

Get Away.

Streetdeck - http://www.wrightsgroup.com/Products/StreetDeck

Gemini - http://www.wrightsgroup.com/Products/Gemini-3

I apologies if trying to give out ACCURATE information offends or upsets you.....I sincerley apologies for it and from now on I'll only give out inaccurate information to adhere to your standards.

You tell me to get away..........why don't you try getting it RIGHT.
 

yorkie

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Can we please remain on topic. If anyone wishes to discuss something else, please create a new thread to discuss it further. Thanks.

Can we also please ensure that posts are polite, in accordance with our forum rules.

If anyone has any concerns about any post, please use the report button.
 

route101

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I guess that the B7s will be out of Glasgow within the next few years and transferred elsewhere due to LEZ. I remember fine well when Glasgow got their 05 plate darts and that was the same story .... the B10s will outlast them etc etc. The 05 plate darts to this day are still great buses and easily have another 4-5 years in them. They could do with the seats being redone possibly with e-leather to match the 06 batch.

Where are the 05 darts ? Blantyre ?
 

TheGrandWazoo

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They were the only one's willing to build the requirements that Stagecoach wanted so I don't see why.
No different from them buying Optare products as they have done previously.
Sam

Indeed - they've taken a number of Wright vehicles at different times and for different reasons. WF Streetlites in South Wales, standard Streetlites for Sheffield and, most impressively, the B5LH/Gemini open toppers in the Lakes.

Stagecoach have often deviated from "the norm" for different reasons such as the when they bought Northern Counties Olympians rather than Alexander and taking Plaxton bodied Darts rather than ALX200.
 

Robertj21a

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Indeed - they've taken a number of Wright vehicles at different times and for different reasons. WF Streetlites in South Wales, standard Streetlites for Sheffield and, most impressively, the B5LH/Gemini open toppers in the Lakes.

Stagecoach have often deviated from "the norm" for different reasons such as the when they bought Northern Counties Olympians rather than Alexander and taking Plaxton bodied Darts rather than ALX200.

As indeed is a very sensible approach from any sensible operator !
 

JumpinTrainz

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It feels rather odd that the end is almost upon us for the B10BLEs and B7Ls. I remember them entering service back in 2001/2002 on to the 62, 61 and 40 routes. The B10s were always far better to travel on than the B7s. I don’t ever remember the B7s being nice even when new. The engines were loud, the were uncomfy, rattled and always stank up the back of urine. I always thought over time they would be cascaded elsewhere but they’ve stuck with the FiG fleet since introduction. Definately not a bus which will be missed in my opinion but I miss the quality of buses Wright and Volvo produced.

Presumably the E200s will soon be upon us.
 

route101

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It feels rather odd that the end is almost upon us for the B10BLEs and B7Ls. I remember them entering service back in 2001/2002 on to the 62, 61 and 40 routes. The B10s were always far better to travel on than the B7s. I don’t ever remember the B7s being nice even when new. The engines were loud, the were uncomfy, rattled and always stank up the back of urine. I always thought over time they would be cascaded elsewhere but they’ve stuck with the FiG fleet since introduction. Definately not a bus which will be missed in my opinion but I miss the quality of buses Wright and Volvo produced.

Presumably the E200s will soon be upon us.
They still see frontline service on the 60 and 61.
 

sannox

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It feels rather odd that the end is almost upon us for the B10BLEs and B7Ls. I remember them entering service back in 2001/2002 on to the 62, 61 and 40 routes. The B10s were always far better to travel on than the B7s. I don’t ever remember the B7s being nice even when new. The engines were loud, the were uncomfy, rattled and always stank up the back of urine. I always thought over time they would be cascaded elsewhere but they’ve stuck with the FiG fleet since introduction. Definately not a bus which will be missed in my opinion but I miss the quality of buses Wright and Volvo produced.

Presumably the E200s will soon be upon us.

Was on a B7L on a 3 the other day. Absolutely horrible inside, seats were even more rock hard than I remember and it was manky. Very much past its best.
 

Jordan Adam

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Was on a B7L on a 3 the other day. Absolutely horrible inside, seats were even more rock hard than I remember and it was manky. Very much past its best.

The B7L had a "best" period?..... It also struck me as odd how the B7L is utterly vile at a non-enthusiast perspective, but the B7LA which is pretty much the same thing (Albeit articulated with a 3rd axle) are quite pleasant.
 

JumpinTrainz

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The B7L had a "best" period?..... It also struck me as odd how the B7L is utterly vile at a non-enthusiast perspective, but the B7LA which is pretty much the same thing (Albeit articulated with a 3rd axle) are quite pleasant.

I wasn’t a massive fan of the B7LA either. The 2005 bendy examples were pretty good buses though!

The B10LAs were great buses in my opinion.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Was on a B7L on a 3 the other day. Absolutely horrible inside, seats were even more rock hard than I remember and it was manky. Very much past its best.

Sadly they all date from the worst period of First interiors where they decided not to have decided not to have any other than minimal padding on seats and very quickly, they felt like fabric just stretched over plastic. The later B10BLEs were equally as sparse though they didn't suffer from the noise and intrusion of the B7L.

I quite liked the spirited performance of the examples in the South West but lord, you felt every bump!
 

Jordan Adam

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I wasn’t a massive fan of the B7LA either. The 2005 bendy examples were pretty good buses though!

The B10LAs were great buses in my opinion.

The B7LA's honestly vary depending on maintenance. Our native W-FAL batch which included the prototype W2FAL were in superior condition compared to the X/Y reg's we got in 2011. Although even those were decent enough. The 05 plates which have the Euro 3 D7C engine instead of the Euro 2 D7B are noticeably superior though at an overall perspective.

The B10LAs were good too although Leeds & Manchester didn't have much luck with them, again i suspect maintenance was a big factor. We had the last B10LAs on the road up till the end of 2015 and they were all round good buses. The B7LAs were easily faster, but the B10LAs were better all rounders.

The Streetcar was a disaster, many people think these are a good representation of B7LAs, but they're really not. The Streetcar's don't even hold a patch on the Eclipse Fusions!
 

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