First Greater Glasgow

[awsnews]

Out of interest does anyone know how well the 206 does? It seems to always get a full sized single so I’m wondering if this route is safe? I’m not too familiar with Dumbarton routes?

It seems to do okay, it would probably do better it it could serve St James Retail park as there isn't much reason to go to Dumbarton High Street these days but Alexandria fares a bit better. There was a spell of smaller vehicles on the route when Marshall bodied Darts were used but for quite a while Glasgow didn't really have many mid sized singles and the group as a whole went for quite a while without acquiring anything in that size which I suspect limited options. Consequently it has become the retirement route for the older full sized singles, I would be surprised if the B10BLEs make a comeback now with various B7RLEs appearing instead. I guess it is useful to have vehicles suitable for use on the 1 if required as well. Previously it needed 8 buses for the weekday service, so not a small service. Not sure what it is up to at the moment.

 

[156478]

Out of interest does anyone know how well the 206 does? It seems to always get a full sized single so I’m wondering if this route is safe? I’m not too familiar with Dumbarton routes?

Back in more prosperous times First ran the following in the Vale of Leven I seem to remember back all the buses were red as no full barbie spec buses made it through to Dumbarton at the time- early 2000s. Thats not to say Dumbarton wasn't profitable- it had its fair share of very decent modern non Barbie buses, especially compared to Motherwell that still had plenty of Tigers and other junk from Kelvin Central days that were barely roadworthy.

204/205. Every 30 minutes each and 15 minutes co-ordinated on common sections of route. Largely as they are today- two different tours of the Vale of Leven then through Bellsmyre, Clydebank, Yoker, Clydeside Expressway, Glasgow City Centre. Grandly called the Leven Valley Express with most of the buses had yellow stickers on them but I never recall anyone calling it that. It was operated by full length SVs PS Types. Some were early builds to Stagecoach Spec and some were to newer SB Holdings spec (grey seats). All of them were in a lot better nick than the ones that operated from the First Glasgow Number 1 depots at the same time- no suprise there considering the differences in scale and a slightly more appreciative clientelle.

206. Largely as it is now, but every 10 minutes. Once called the Leven Valley Link. It was midibuses, some red rare low East Lancs Dennis Darts- very rare in the Glasgow business and they were a great sucess with the customers as a result. it probably was Midis at the time as the frequency mix was right for midis. At the time it was possible to buy a ticket on the train to then use on the 206.

208. Now I cant remember if this was originally every 20 minutes at the time and then became every 30 minutes further down the line. But it ran in the evenings and on Sundays and was commercially operated.

216. Hourly shuttle service Helensburgh to Dumbarton. Evening service I think was SPT subsidised but there wasn't a Sunday service in the early 2000s.

There was also a Bonhill to Alexandria local service also. That didnt last too long.

I don't think many of the routes are that bad for full length buses. I know from travelling on them the 204s and 205s through Bellsmyre were tight as a drum getting them through the scheme but it was no different to similar schemes in Glasgow even at the top of the Vale of Leven around The Haldane and Tullichewan wasnt too bad.

There was a time before the 204/205 ran all the way to Glasgow, you would have to change buses at Clydebank if you wanted to travel by bus all the way to Glasgow with First Bus. This was a legacy due to a gentlemans agreement with Strathclyde's Buses and Kelvin Central before they merged. The service has in general grown well over the years. The 216 became half hourly and extended from Dumbarton via Dumbarton East to join the main route at Milton and the 10 minute service from there to Glasgow was created. Then it has evolved into the One group of services.

The 206- it was inevitable the service was going to become less popular as the 204/205s and the subsequent Ones run along some busier common sections of the route.

If you go into the schemes the amount of cars everywhere tells the story, Dumbarton High Street is full of charity shops and vaping shops and the ample car park at the Retail Park in Dumbarton is the real topping on the cake to destroy bus patronage. Its not terrible bus operating territory by any means but the former days of buses rammed to the gunnels on Saturday are long gone.

The train service has its faults. If you live in Balloch its quite a slow service to Glasgow on the train compared to the more fortunate residents on the Helensburgh line who get the express trains. But the One holds it's own as it goes deep into the schemes right up to people's front doors and then takes them into Glasgow.

 

[scosutsut]

Very good assessment of Dumbarton I would say @156478.

I held a minute's silence for the SV PS types after I read it, they were the absolute peak for me, always loved when the M reg Stagecoach spec with the DP seats turned up on your journey, after years of KCBs motley crew of scrappers the scene became somewhat less interesting but altogether more civilized!

As you've said, car usage has exploded, the retail park has completely wiped the floor with the High Street which has slowly been dying off year by year. I used to joke that the high street could be described as pub pub, bookies, pub but that's not far off!

The town is small enough to walk / pedal most places providing you are fit and able, and it's got three very well served train stations - albeit they aren't well placed for the less well off schemes at the edges of the town - the fact that it supports anything is pretty spectacular imo, I guess local economic factors being as they are these days probably has a say in that.

If it wasn't for the one's making them so much money I have absolutely no doubt First would have walked away by now, they've had ample excuse and opportunity to do so having had competitors they could have left the town to.

 

[Jordan Adam]

As you've said, car usage has exploded, the retail park has completely wiped the floor with the High Street which has slowly been dying off year by year. I used to joke that the high street could be described as pub pub, bookies, pub but that's not far off!

The town is small enough to walk / pedal most places providing you are fit and able, and it's got three very well served train stations - albeit they aren't well placed for the less well off schemes at the edges of the town - the fact that it supports anything is pretty spectacular imo, I guess local economic factors being as they are these days probably has a say in that.

If it wasn't for the one's making them so much money I have absolutely no doubt First would have walked away by now, they've had ample excuse and opportunity to do so having had competitors they could have left the town to.

It's not only that. Online shopping means that many non-car users get weekly home deliveries rather than getting the bus down to their local supermarket every few days. The main issue for high streets is that they've failed to adapt and the rent prices are often far too high for independent shops to open up, hence we end up with town centres where 25% of units are empty.

I'm not an expert on the area but i understand the 206 does fairly well. It must do if it's on a 10 min frequency with full size buses.

 

[Bus Lightyear]

Back in more prosperous times First ran the following in the Vale of Leven I seem to remember back all the buses were red as no full barbie spec buses made it through to Dumbarton at the time- early 2000s. Thats not to say Dumbarton wasn't profitable- it had its fair share of very decent modern non Barbie buses, especially compared to Motherwell that still had plenty of Tigers and other junk from Kelvin Central days that were barely roadworthy.

204/205. Every 30 minutes each and 15 minutes co-ordinated on common sections of route. Largely as they are today- two different tours of the Vale of Leven then through Bellsmyre, Clydebank, Yoker, Clydeside Expressway, Glasgow City Centre. Grandly called the Leven Valley Express with most of the buses had yellow stickers on them but I never recall anyone calling it that. It was operated by full length SVs PS Types. Some were early builds to Stagecoach Spec and some were to newer SB Holdings spec (grey seats). All of them were in a lot better nick than the ones that operated from the First Glasgow Number 1 depots at the same time- no suprise there considering the differences in scale and a slightly more appreciative clientelle.

206. Largely as it is now, but every 10 minutes. Once called the Leven Valley Link. It was midibuses, some red rare low East Lancs Dennis Darts- very rare in the Glasgow business and they were a great sucess with the customers as a result. it probably was Midis at the time as the frequency mix was right for midis. At the time it was possible to buy a ticket on the train to then use on the 206.

208. Now I cant remember if this was originally every 20 minutes at the time and then became every 30 minutes further down the line. But it ran in the evenings and on Sundays and was commercially operated.

216. Hourly shuttle service Helensburgh to Dumbarton. Evening service I think was SPT subsidised but there wasn't a Sunday service in the early 2000s.

There was also a Bonhill to Alexandria local service also. That didnt last too long.

I don't think many of the routes are that bad for full length buses. I know from travelling on them the 204s and 205s through Bellsmyre were tight as a drum getting them through the scheme but it was no different to similar schemes in Glasgow even at the top of the Vale of Leven around The Haldane and Tullichewan wasnt too bad.

There was a time before the 204/205 ran all the way to Glasgow, you would have to change buses at Clydebank if you wanted to travel by bus all the way to Glasgow with First Bus. This was a legacy due to a gentlemans agreement with Strathclyde's Buses and Kelvin Central before they merged. The service has in general grown well over the years. The 216 became half hourly and extended from Dumbarton via Dumbarton East to join the main route at Milton and the 10 minute service from there to Glasgow was created. Then it has evolved into the One group of services.

The 206- it was inevitable the service was going to become less popular as the 204/205s and the subsequent Ones run along some busier common sections of the route.

If you go into the schemes the amount of cars everywhere tells the story, Dumbarton High Street is full of charity shops and vaping shops and the ample car park at the Retail Park in Dumbarton is the real topping on the cake to destroy bus patronage. Its not terrible bus operating territory by any means but the former days of buses rammed to the gunnels on Saturday are long gone.

The train service has its faults. If you live in Balloch its quite a slow service to Glasgow on the train compared to the more fortunate residents on the Helensburgh line who get the express trains. But the One holds it's own as it goes deep into the schemes right up to people's front doors and then takes them into Glasgow.

This is a really excellent assessment of the Vale of Leven area. The 204/205 then the 1 group of routes has been one of First Glasgow's biggest successes over the last 20 years. I don't know if any of you remember this, for a short time in the late 90s there was an X62 which ran from Old Kilpatrick to Glasgow via Clydebank and the Expressway which was latterly replaced by extending the 204/205 from Clydebank to Glasgow. The small batch of Plaxton Derwent and Caetano Volvo B10Ms were normally found on the X62

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I held a minute's silence for the SV PS types after I read it

I was mourning when they were withdrawn around the time Simplicity was rolled out as they were fantastic buses.

after years of KCBs motley crew of scrappers

Like the oddity on your avatar

I'm not an expert on the area but i understand the 206 does fairly well. It must do if it's on a 10 min frequency with full size buses.

It was a 15 min frequency when it was the D6 in Kelvin Scottish/Kelvin Central days then ramped up to 10 under First and now back to 15.

 

[Jordan Adam]

It was a 15 min frequency when it was the D6 in Kelvin Scottish/Kelvin Central days then ramped up to 10 under First and now back to 15.

It was 10 prior to lockdown if i'm right in thinking though?

 

[Bus Lightyear]

It was 10 prior to lockdown if i'm right in thinking though?

I'm sure it was reduced to 15 in 2012/13.

 

[Jordan Adam]

I'm sure it was reduced to 15 in 2012/13.

Ahh, i couldn't remember if it was 10 or 15 and i don't have any pre-lockdown timetables from recently to hand!

 

[scosutsut]

Like the oddity on your avatar

Ah the pan loaf as it was nicknamed for its appearance was like being driven to your destination on a bouncy castle, it was so much fun.

I also had an incredible soft spot for the Alexander TE Dorchesters, they would rip along quite happily!

 

[overthewater]

If this is of any use, Back in the 90s..

D2: Westcliff - Dumbarton - Clydebank - Every 30mins. * extra runs Dumbarton to Bellsmyre to create 15mins service over that section
D4/D5: Balloch - Dumbarton - Clydebank - Partick : every 30mins over full route and every 15mins between Balloch and Dumbarton
D2 and D5 provide 15min service from Dumbarton to Clydebank
D6: I believe is current 206: Every 15mins
D7 Tullichewan - Alexandria - Bonhill Every15mins

Two points, WAS there a D1 and was operate the Cyldebank - expressway - Glasgow route back then? Did they expect people to switch to the Subway?

 

[PaulMc7]

For me, the success of the 1s is probably the biggest highlight for First in a long time and probably the reason Dumbarton Depot still operates. I remember it at the time when Mcgills had the 204X and First started the 1s things switched very quickly in First's favour. The 204X prior to that was fairly busy near me but it was a one sided fight after it. I just remember getting a 204 on the Saturday then leaving on the Monday to go to college and it was a double decker 1. At first I thought it was a mistake by the driver but then I read the timetable at the bus stop at Argyle St at central and noticed it had all changed

 

[Bus Lightyear]

Ah the pan loaf as it was nicknamed for its appearance was like being driven to your destination on a bouncy castle, it was so much fun.

I also had an incredible soft spot for the Alexander TE Dorchesters, they would rip along quite happily!

I cant remember if I ever travelled on a Dorchester but I did like the Alexander AT bodied Leopards and Tigers.

 

[Bus Lightyear]

Two points, WAS there a D1 and was operate the Cyldebank - expressway - Glasgow route back then? Did they expect people to switch to the Subway?

Don't think there was ever a D1. As I mentioned in an earlier post there was an X62 which was introduced in 1998 and it ran via the Expressway before the 204/205 got extended. For a number of years buses from the Vale only went as far as Clydebank and you had to change from there although most people in Dumbarton etc would opt for the train.

 

[Bus Lightyear]

For me, the success of the 1s is probably the biggest highlight for First in a long time and probably the reason Dumbarton Depot still operates. I remember it at the time when Mcgills had the 204X and First started the 1s things switched very quickly in First's favour. The 204X prior to that was fairly busy near me but it was a one sided fight after it. I just remember getting a 204 on the Saturday then leaving on the Monday to go to college and it was a double decker 1. At first I thought it was a mistake by the driver but then I read the timetable at the bus stop at Argyle St at central and noticed it had all changed

It's fair to say that the 77, X11, X85 and X87 have also been a success as First have done well in building up these markets.

 

[PaulMc7]

It's fair to say that the 77, X11, X85 and X87 have also been a success as First have done well in building up these markets.

Yeah I fully agree with those. Could argue that the 9/9A is a massive success given that Mcgills run the 38 so frequently now and the 9s still do very well

 

[AndrewTaylor95]

9 is a far better service to Paisley plus it runs later than the McGill's 38

 

[scosutsut]

Don't think there was ever a D1. As I mentioned in an earlier post there was an X62 which was introduced in 1998 and it ran via the Expressway before the 204/205 got extended. For a number of years buses from the Vale only went as far as Clydebank and you had to change from there although most people in Dumbarton etc would opt for the train.

The D1 in the 90s was Dumbarton Town Centre - Bellsmyre. The D6 went a different way between the Town Centre and Bellsmyre (Bonhill Road and Round Riding Road instead of Townend Road) but covered the end to end and subsequently the D1 must have been dropped.

In those days there was D1/2/4/5/6/7/8 just 3 was missing - I don't know if that was ever used?

(Edit re D6)

 

[156478]

9 is a far better service to Paisley plus it runs later than the McGill's 38

Competition is dead on the Paisley to Glasgow route.

People take First because they have onward journeys with First in the city and because they have travelled with First and their predecessors Strathclyde's Buses and that slight advantage with later and earlier buses.

People tale McGills because they give change and are more frequent between Paisley and Hillington Road South. Again people take McGills are those that used to travel with Dicksons/Arriva and Clydeside and travel onwards with McGills in Renfrewshire.

The only people who turn up and take the first one that come along are the concession card holders. After that people have their choice and largely stick to it.

Pre pandemic McGills offered the better service- every 5 minutes all the way to Paisley, give change and much nicer cleaner buses. They arent the newest but the Citaros are very nice and the Eclipses are in very decent nick.

First with those scabby tired Eclipses with the threadbare seats, water soaked route branding posters in the poster frames on the exteriors, demoralised drivers behind bandit screens and cash vaults impress no one.

 

[JumpinTrainz]

Competition is dead on the Paisley to Glasgow route.

People take First because they have onward journeys with First in the city and because they have travelled with First and their predecessors Strathclyde's Buses and that slight advantage with later and earlier buses.

People tale McGills because they give change and are more frequent between Paisley and Hillington Road South. Again people take McGills are those that used to travel with Dicksons/Arriva and Clydeside and travel onwards with McGills in Renfrewshire.

The only people who turn up and take the first one that come along are the concession card holders. After that people have their choice and largely stick to it.

Pre pandemic McGills offered the better service- every 5 minutes all the way to Paisley, give change and much nicer cleaner buses. They arent the newest but the Citaros are very nice and the Eclipses are in very decent nick.

First with those scabby tired Eclipses with the threadbare seats, water soaked route branding posters in the poster frames on the exteriors, demoralised drivers behind bandit screens and cash vaults impress no one.

I was hoping with the new buses coming that the 9/9A would be one of the first routes to be considered for new buses or at the very least a reshuffle of stock so that we see even E300s or E200MMCs dominate the route. The B7RLEs are so tired inside and they had a cheek to brand the buses without so much as an internal refurb.

 

[Bus Lightyear]

First with those scabby tired Eclipses with the threadbare seats, water soaked route branding posters in the poster frames on the exteriors, demoralised drivers behind bandit screens and cash vaults impress no one.

I think we can assume the 9/9A is not one of First's top earners hence why it hasn't benefited from new buses for many years.

Fastfare has been in use for 40 years now and I remember Aberdeen, Dundee and Edinburgh having it before Glasgow. The method of collecting cash fares isn't as critical these days with contactless becoming more popular.

I would also say whilst they may be perceived as being a little bit anti-passenger that the bandit screens are necessary especially with what's going on just now with Covid. I would actually say shame on McGill's for not having them fitted and potentially compromising the safety of their staff and passengers.

 

[KMS1992]

I think we can assume the 9/9A is not one of First's top earners hence why it hasn't benefited from new buses for many years.

Fastfare has been in use for 40 years now and I remember Aberdeen, Dundee and Edinburgh having it before Glasgow. The method of collecting cash fares isn't as critical these days with contactless becoming more popular.

I would also say whilst they may be perceived as being a little bit anti-passenger that the bandit screens are necessary especially with what's going on just now with Covid. I would actually say shame on McGill's for not having them fitted and potentially compromising the safety of their staff and passengers.

I'm not sure....

I use the 9/9a every day for work. You're lucky if you can get a seat. Bus is usually crammed leaving the City and it is the same when you get on Southside (I get on at Cardonald).

 

[Jordan Adam]

I think we can assume the 9/9A is not one of First's top earners hence why it hasn't benefited from new buses for many years.

The 9/9A is one of the routes due new buses in the current/next vehicle order...

 

[awsnews]

It was a 15 min frequency when it was the D6 in Kelvin Scottish/Kelvin Central days then ramped up to 10 under First and now back to 15.

Looking at the Kelvin timetable for the D6 from June 1990 it was a 30min frequency Mon-Sat and hourly on a Sunday (the Sunday service extended to Helensburgh)
The Kelvin Central Buses Guide for August 1993 has the D6 at a 15min frequency but by that point it was a joint service with Allander with each operator running at 30min frequencies.
I can't find a timetable for when it was promoted as Raillink (206), but as already pointed out, the buses promoted a 10 minute frequency (can't find a timetable for that one but here is the bus;http://www.gcsbromleygarage.com/127...-01 to 2010-01-12/slides/fg4120201290705.html)
It appears to have been increasing in frequency since then.

 

[PaulMc7]

Used the 9/9A a lot over the years and honestly, they've been busy the majority of the time even off-peak. Used to finish college at Cardonald at 4 pm Monday-Wednesday and went for a 9/9A with how unreliable the 10 was as it interworked with the 57 with no recovery time whatsoever on the southside of the route. Very often never got close to a seat the entire time towards the City Centre. In the morning towards Cardonald was very often the same situation. This was a few years ago now but when I've used them in more recent times they've been pretty busy especially compared to the 38

 

[92002]

Looking at the Kelvin timetable for the D6 from June 1990 it was a 30min frequency Mon-Sat and hourly on a Sunday (the Sunday service extended to Helensburgh)
The Kelvin Central Buses Guide for August 1993 has the D6 at a 15min frequency but by that point it was a joint service with Allander with each operator running at 30min frequencies.
I can't find a timetable for when it was promoted as Raillink (206), but as already pointed out, the buses promoted a 10 minute frequency (can't find a timetable for that one but here is the bus;http://www.gcsbromleygarage.com/1276archive/The 1276-Busstop-First Glasgow/Current Fleet - Midibuses 2004-01-01 to 2010-01-12/slides/fg4120201290705.html)
It appears to have been increasing in frequency since then.

The D services were really the start of the current 1s. Although they don't serve Partick and use the expressway to the city.

 

[sannox]

Competition is dead on the Paisley to Glasgow route.

People take First because they have onward journeys with First in the city and because they have travelled with First and their predecessors Strathclyde's Buses and that slight advantage with later and earlier buses.

People tale McGills because they give change and are more frequent between Paisley and Hillington Road South. Again people take McGills are those that used to travel with Dicksons/Arriva and Clydeside and travel onwards with McGills in Renfrewshire.

The only people who turn up and take the first one that come along are the concession card holders. After that people have their choice and largely stick to it.

Good summary. Indeed since First pulled the 9 from Paisley during the pandemic, they've been very quiet (although all the buses have) towards Paisley. Bus at Crookston Road the other afternoon to Glasgow had barely anyone on it. They may come back but in Paisley the 9 isn't carrying much the times I've seen. Wouldn't be shocked to see it go to Penilee full time.

 

[route101]

The 9 is back to Paisley im sure. We had to get bus back from Paisley last friday after the railway line was shut when coming back from Ayr.

We waited for first 9 , service didnt turn up , but did see a first e300 further along the road, maybe a empty working or skipped the Piazza stops.

We then waited for McGills 38 , driver wouldnt accept ladies first bus pass even when she told him the first 9 didnt turn up. Thought that was a bit mean , 2 stops further on, another lady tries using her first pass , now he lets her.

Strangely i had no issues using my rail ticket.

 

[jcf5561]

The 9 is back to Paisley im sure. We had to get bus back from Paisley last friday after the railway line was shut when coming back from Ayr.

We waited for first 9 , service didnt turn up , but did see a first e300 further along the road, maybe a empty working or skipped the Piazza stops.

We then waited for McGills 38 , driver wouldnt accept ladies first bus pass even when she told him the first 9 didnt turn up. Thought that was a bit mean , 2 stops further on, another lady tries using her first pass , now he lets her.

Strangely i had no issues using my rail ticket.

The joint ticketing between First and McGill's on the 9/38 corridor has ended so the McGill's driver is right to refuse travel to someone who doesn't have a valid ticket for that service.

 

[Scott mac]

Noticed the 75 is back to every 10 mins during the day with their normal double deckers also behind them are 75 in single decks no sure how often they are running

 

[156478]

Good summary. Indeed since First pulled the 9 from Paisley during the pandemic, they've been very quiet (although all the buses have) towards Paisley. Bus at Crookston Road the other afternoon to Glasgow had barely anyone on it. They may come back but in Paisley the 9 isn't carrying much the times I've seen. Wouldn't be shocked to see it go to Penilee full time.

I wonder how many customers First have lost with pulling the 9s during the pandemic and letting McGill's take their customers and letting them sample their service and possibly change their bus habit they have probably stuck to for years. It wont be thousands of people as buses at the time were supposed to be only for key workers, but there is potential for some lost custom.

It made beyond total sense for First to do, freeing up scarce staff resources to run services elsewhere.

I'm suprised also that McGill's haven't went for a positive campaign spin on the whole thing on the 38s.