Edinburgh Tour Operators: Bright Bus, Lothian (Majestic, Three Bridges) etc.

[tbtc]

The day after LCB announce their first year results for its WL venture I shall see what I can do for you !!

So you're happy to confirm that your suggestion that "BBT took more in a week than LCB take in a month floating around West Lothian" was a load of Horlicks, based on no actual knowledge, just the fact that you want to think the best of your favourite operator and criticise your least favourite operator. Maybe they did take more money, maybe they didn't, but none of us know.

Fair enough though - at least you're being more honest now, but I wish we had a subforum for all of the football-esque "fan" stuff that's becoming more prevalent on here.

 

[winston270twm]

So let's play "irony" who is funding the West Lothian venture?
Who thinks throwing away money ,whosoever it is was a wise move ?

As you have been told repeatedly by numerous people but constantly choose to ignore, Lothian Buses Limited are funding the West Lothian venture as LCB's parent, through existing LB profits & LB retained profits from their commercial operations.

It's black & white in the above limited company accounts, clearly states who the shareholders are & what they've been paid in dividends.

Imagine though the first week of BBT and it took more than LCB are taking in its West Lothian venture in a month , can you really imagine it ?

Back it up with figures rather than your imagination.​

 

[Fryschocream]

In Focus.......you've been watching jackanory too much

 

[SpeedbirdA350]

your a clever chap, you dont design West Lothian Routes that's for sure

You're. I never said however I design WL routes. So, might you be able to now answer the question I asked pereviously?

Why do you hate Lothian so much? You said previously you wish for them (or LCB) to fail but when I asked why, you failed to answer. I just don't understand your mindset on why you want a company to fail to bad. My 2 guesses are you're either an employee of First and looking out for your job which is understandable or you have shares in the company. You keep talking about tax payers cash despite Lothian not operating in the way you seem to think it does and you seem to gloss over the fact that if you want to look at public transport wasting tax payers cash, we have a tramline which has done exactly that (£231m loan plus £21k daily interest) but yet, you say nothing on that subject which suggests it's not down to tax payers money after all.

Given this is peak tourism season, having tourists on tour buses is not a shocking revolution, and given we have more tourists here than ever before, there is plenty to go around. If you had looked at Lothian tour buses, you'd see they had people on them too so while First might make some money on this, it's not really going to change much in the terms of how tour buses operate here. It's good that people have a choice though, and they can choose which service they want. Just like how you can pick which supermarket to shop at or which website to browse, having a choice in life is a wonderful thing.

So, why DO you want LCB to fail so badly?

 

[Driver362]

Hmmm, only picks up on certain bits, glosses over the rest & doesn't even offer anything to back up the sweeping claims!


Only Lothian know what losses LCB are making at present, anything else is just pure guesswork.

Additionally, I'd have expected Lothian will have made provisions for losses on startup in their business plan for LCB.

They have it was explained to us from MD, commercial director and our general manager. I just don't waste time replying to his, "out of focus views" I worked for first for a long time and have been with Lcb from start up. I know what we do and see what they do but anyway your wasting your time trying to tell him otherwise although no figures were quoted I must add

 

[Driver362]

Imagine though the first week of BBT and it took more than LCB are taking in its West Lothian venture in a month , can you really imagine it ?

No and neither can you

 

[winston270twm]

They have it was explained to us from MD, commercial director and our general manager. I just don't waste time replying to his, "out of focus views" I worked for first for a long time and have been with Lcb from start up. I know what we do and see what they do but anyway your wasting your time trying to tell him otherwise although no figures were quoted I must add

As would be expected in any new venture, the figures will be negative for the foreseeable, just depends whether they fall within the expected LB budgeted range. At present, there have been little or no changes to LCB services.

You can tell by the quality of the responses & lack of facts to back up their points that they they're clearly deluded.......

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

They have it was explained to us from MD, commercial director and our general manager. I just don't waste time replying to his, "out of focus views" I worked for first for a long time and have been with Lcb from start up. I know what we do and see what they do but anyway your wasting your time trying to tell him otherwise although no figures were quoted I must add

As would be expected in any new venture, the figures will be negative for the foreseeable, just depends whether they fall within the expected LB budgeted range. At present, there have been little or no changes to LCB services.

You can tell by the quality of the responses & lack of facts to back up their points that they they're clearly deluded.......

LCB will clearly have factored in start up costs and initial losses (like any business with a new venture). If they’re beating those targets, then great but if not, then that’s a different question.

InFocus has demonstrated that he’s either unwilling to accept the realities of Lothian’s funding OR is unable to understand their financial statements. Either way, doesn’t really cast him as a luminary.

 

[Journeyman]

LCB will clearly have factored in start up costs and initial losses (like any business with a new venture). If they’re beating those targets, then great but if not, then that’s a different question.

InFocus has demonstrated that he’s either unwilling to accept the realities of Lothian’s funding OR is unable to understand their financial statements. Either way, doesn’t really cast him as a luminary.

He's absolutely determined to believe that Lothian are burning taxpayer's money and that they're massively subsidised by some unfair means, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary - that they actually generate a profit and make a very positive contribution to council finances. This is in contrast to his beloved First, which is in a terrible position and perilously close to being broken up and sold.

 

[cactustwirly]

He's absolutely determined to believe that Lothian are burning taxpayer's money and that they're massively subsidised by some unfair means, despite the overwhelming evidence to the contrary - that they actually generate a profit and make a very positive contribution to council finances. This is in contrast to his beloved First, which is in a terrible position and perilously close to being broken up and sold.

It's worth pointing out that in West Lothian, First makes a healthy profit

 

[alangla]

Happened to be looking at hotel reviews on TripAdvisor earlier (not for Edinburgh) and a large box ad for Bright Bus Tours appeared on the side of the page. Presumably a big chunk of the marketing effort is going on online ads to attract pre-booking and totally circumvent Lothian’s street vendors. Is that not the approach Megabus tours took in London?

 

[Journeyman]

It's worth pointing out that in West Lothian, First makes a healthy profit

True, but it's come at a cost. Look how much FSE has contracted in recent years.

 

[winston270twm]

It's worth pointing out that in West Lothian, First makes a healthy profit

Or 'did' make a healthy profit. It's still some way off the low double digit margins First Group were aiming for from UK bus.

Last published accounts show £639k operating profit on turnover £8.8 million to 31st March 2018. Prior year was £1.033 million on £9.7 million turnover.

 

[Robertj21a]

Or 'did' make a healthy profit. It's still some way off the low double digit margins First Group were aiming for from UK bus.

Last published accounts show £639k operating profit on turnover £8.8 million to 31st March 2018. Prior year was £1.033 million on £9.7 million turnover.

Quite, apx 10.6% has gone down to 7.3% in just a year. So heading in the wrong direction.

 

[winston270twm]

Quite, apx 10.6% has gone down to 7.3% in just a year. So heading in the wrong direction.

It was heading in the wrong direction even before LCB's major expansion.

With increased operating costs (i.e. frequency increases to fend off LCB) & some lost revenue, I'm thinking it will be much closer to just break even by 31st March 2019 accounts.

 

[Driver362]

I happen to know a senior manager within group. The finances at deans has been in some pearl for a while!. At the end of the day I'm only hear to do a job not gloat at other Co's misfortune

 

[overthewater]

Then why does lothian want to enter the west lothian market if the finances are poor? East and mid are a different kettle of fish, it had compertition and lothian ended up with all the passengers without any extre resources.

Also its funny how the public in West Lothian have said thier have been ripped off by first.. Yet going by lcb fares and weeklys. First have been too cheap for years and public were wrong.

 

[Journeyman]

Then why does lothian want to enter the west lothian market if the finances are poor? East and mid are a different kettle of fish, it had compertition and lothian ended up with all the passengers without any extre resources.

Also its funny how the public in West Lothian have said thier have been ripped off by first.. Yet going by lcb fares and weeklys. First have been too cheap for years and public were wrong.

Lothian are an altogether different operation, though, with a comprehensive city-wide network, which First don't have now. I live on the 38 route, and if Lothian were to muscle in, I'd be happy to use them because I could buy day tickets for onwards bus and tram travel. As it is, if I want to go into town and then travel onwards, it's cheaper and easier for me to drive to the park and ride. If I had a Lothian bus on my doorstep, I'd leave the car at home.

 

[Driver362]

You may get your wish, you never know

 

[Bluebirdscot66]

You may get your wish, you never know

I’ve been hearing folk from Bridgend would like lcb to come and give a service during the day as they are still miffed at first for pulling 38 out .of course at night the 38 goes in but for all the complaints there’s not a lot using it . So maybe a 38 style route from lcb will wake first up ?

 

[winston270twm]

Then why does lothian want to enter the west lothian market if the finances are poor? East and mid are a different kettle of fish, it had compertition and lothian ended up with all the passengers without any extre resources.

Also its funny how the public in West Lothian have said thier have been ripped off by first.. Yet going by lcb fares and weeklys. First have been too cheap for years and public were wrong.

Just because one operator doesn't do so well from a certain area, it doesn't mean another can't do better with different investment levels, different management / operating styles, different marketing etc. Look at First Manchester Queens Road & Bolton, First were loosing big money, yet Go-Ahead & Rotala were keen to buy even with the threat of Quality Contracts. Same with Stagecoach and all the First UK Bus marginal / loss making subsidiaries it acquired during 2012.

 

[Robertj21a]

Then why does lothian want to enter the west lothian market if the finances are poor? East and mid are a different kettle of fish, it had compertition and lothian ended up with all the passengers without any extre resources.

Also its funny how the public in West Lothian have said thier have been ripped off by first.. Yet going by lcb fares and weeklys. First have been too cheap for years and public were wrong.

Surely that's fairly obvious ?

Lothian reckon, with some justification, that they can probably provide a better service than the current incumbent.

 

[Journeyman]

I’ve been hearing folk from Bridgend would like lcb to come and give a service during the day as they are still miffed at first for pulling 38 out .of course at night the 38 goes in but for all the complaints there’s not a lot using it . So maybe a 38 style route from lcb will wake first up ?

Bridgend is slim pickings, though - I'm guessing First calculated that cutting that mileage has made them a saving, even if they've lost custom over it. I'm sure First putting the Linlithgow - Edinburgh section of the 38 back to four buses an hour is a defensive move against a Lothian incursion. The 38 is also far too long for Lothian to consider taking on in its entirety, and presumably the EX2 is their effort to extract custom from Linlithgow. Don't know if there's much scope for them to serve Winchburgh, where I live, but I'd certainly be happy if they did.

 

[overthewater]

Lothian are an altogether different operation, though, with a comprehensive city-wide network, which First don't have now. I live on the 38 route, and if Lothian were to muscle in, I'd be happy to use them because I could buy day tickets for onwards bus and tram travel. As it is, if I want to go into town and then travel onwards, it's cheaper and easier for me to drive to the park and ride. If I had a Lothian bus on my doorstep, I'd leave the car at home.

A £9 day ticket with no option of weekly. At that price its costing you a fiver just to get from Winchburgh area to Ingliston. First bus price is £5 return, your not saving money overall....

I’ve been hearing folk from Bridgend would like lcb to come and give a service during the day as they are still miffed at first for pulling 38 out .of course at night the 38 goes in but for all the complaints there’s not a lot using it . So maybe a 38 style route from lcb will wake first up ?

Bridgend is slim pickings, though - I'm guessing First calculated that cutting that mileage has made them a saving, even if they've lost custom over it. I'm sure First putting the Linlithgow - Edinburgh section of the 38 back to four buses an hour is a defensive move against a Lothian incursion. The 38 is also far too long for Lothian to consider taking on in its entirety, and presumably the EX2 is their effort to extract custom from Linlithgow. Don't know if there's much scope for them to serve Winchburgh, where I live, but I'd certainly be happy if they did.

Bridgend still has direct bus to Linlithgow and Falkirk, just hourly. The Other problem was packed cars and vans so your sending up a few buses at the same time around the village and buses sometimes caused issues. The people can also walked down to the main Road it really isn't that far, it's the same length people would have to walk within certain parts ofWinchburgh to catch a 38 on the main road aswell. Im not saying that is right or wrong etc. the people are not cut off however there is other issues behind this.

Just because one operator doesn't do so well from a certain area, it doesn't mean another can't do better with different investment levels, different management / operating styles, different marketing etc. Look at First Manchester Queens Road & Bolton, First were loosing big money, yet Go-Ahead & Rotala were keen to buy even with the threat of Quality Contracts. Same with Stagecoach and all the First UK Bus marginal / loss making subsidiaries it acquired during 2012.

Surely that's fairly obvious ?
Lothian reckon, with some justification, that they can probably provide a better service than the current incumbent.

For a Higher Premium, Anyone can do that, I can set up a restaurant and provide so called better service for a higher price. Go-Ahead (I bet Rotala will be the same) has the same price for a day ticket but it will cover less of Manchester. Switch to us and you pay more...

It's the reason why Lothian hasn't matched right in and took all the passengers, because the passengers have complained for years and years saying First has been short changing them etc Lothian has said its current fare/ weekly/ monthly are priced to make it worthwhile, which goes beyond what the public wants, which means LCB isn't providing a better service than the incumbent. If that isn't the case then why has the public stayed loyal to a bus company never everyone hates? Public don't agree and its main reason why a good load has stayed with First, cheap fares and better and faster routes. It must also the reason why First management think it can win this battle.

I also think it's strange that LCB copied First 25 route but that's fine, First coping a tour route that bad...

 

[winston270twm]

For a Higher Premium, Anyone can do that, I can set up a restaurant and provide so called better service for a higher price. Go-Ahead (I bet Rotala will be the same) has the same price for a day ticket but it will cover less of Manchester. Switch to us and you pay more...

It's the reason why Lothian hasn't matched right in and took all the passengers, because the passengers have complained for years and years saying First has been short changing them etc Lothian has said its current fare/ weekly/ monthly are priced to make it worthwhile, which goes beyond what the public wants, which means LCB isn't providing a better service than the incumbent. If that isn't the case then why has the public stayed loyal to a bus company never everyone hates? Public don't agree and its main reason why a good load has stayed with First, cheap fares and better and faster routes. It must also the reason why First management think it can win this battle.

I also think it's strange that LCB copied First 25 route but that's fine, First coping a tour route that bad...

Hate to disappoint, Go-Ahead is maintaining 'First's' prices at present, but Rotala's DBNW day ticket is cheaper than First's. And the 'switch to us & pay more / same price & cover less of Manchester doesn't tally' as come August, First Manchester will be down to just one depot i.e. Oldham. First are notorious for charging higher fares & offering the poorest service. At least Go NW & Rotala will be replacing most of their Manchester fleets with brand new Euro 6 buses.

There's nothing wrong with First copying an LB Tour route, it's called competition. If the BBT tours have been received as well as comments on here suggest, I expect LB will be plotting their next move to return fire....

 

[overthewater]

Your not disappointing me, as I said and you put it in bold," has the same price for a day ticket but it will cover less of Manchester." It doesn't matter come August, unless Go ahead reduced the price of its tickets. Your still paying the same for a smaller area. £5.00. Its main reason why West lothian public hasn't all switched over to Lothian.

Tell every else its competition about copying routes, I have seen people mouth off about First copying but not Lothian copying.

 

[Robertj21a]

Your not disappointing me, as I said and you put it in bold," has the same price for a day ticket but it will cover less of Manchester." It doesn't matter come August, unless Go ahead reduced the price of its tickets. Your still paying the same for a smaller area. £5.00. Its main reason why West lothian public hasn't all switched over to Lothian.

Tell every else its competition about copying routes, I have seen people mouth off about First copying but not Lothian copying.

Why does it matter who 'mouths off' about any particular operator ?
Competition is legal, it's just some people don't like it when they are on the receiving end.

 

[winston270twm]

Your not disappointing me, as I said and you put it in bold," has the same price for a day ticket but it will cover less of Manchester." It doesn't matter come August, unless Go ahead reduced the price of its tickets. Your still paying the same for a smaller area. £5.00. Its main reason why West lothian public hasn't all switched over to Lothian.

Tell every else its competition about copying routes, I have seen people mouth off about First copying but not Lothian copying.

Go Ahead have only recently taken over, give them chance to establish the new business and review what needs changing. They're maintaining existing fare structure & routes at present.

You tell them, thought we'd got past those childish comments/remarks, plus I thought more of LCB's routes were new and not direct copies of First's.

I'm not fussed either way, they're all commercial decisions made by the respective big chiefs, one competitive attack will provoke another, I'm just watching how it all unfolds / ends.

 

[overthewater]

Ok: in the short period of summer, passengers have lost out, if that changes that fine. The point I rasing about First copy V lothian copying is I have seen it all over the place hence why I highlighted this fact. that is all.

Lcb routes are pretty carbon copies
* X27/ X28 Copy of old First X27/28
* 280 copy of 25 bar St john H grounds
* 281 copy of 26, but goes via Craigshill aswell

The rest are just old route First used to operate but were never well liked. LCB isn't providing a better service than the incumbent.

I dont believe LCB isn't providing a better service than the incumbent, because it's the case, why the public has stayed loyal to a bus company never everyone hates. P

 

[Bus Lightyear]

Ok: in the short period of summer, passengers have lost out, if that changes that fine. The point I rasing about First copy V lothian copying is I have seen it all over the place hence why I highlighted this fact. that is all.

Lcb routes are pretty carbon copies
* X27/ X28 Copy of old First X27/28
* 280 copy of 25 bar St john H grounds
* 281 copy of 26, but goes via Craigshill aswell

The rest are just old route First used to operate but were never well liked. LCB isn't providing a better service than the incumbent.

I dont believe LCB isn't providing a better service than the incumbent, because it's the case, why the public has stayed loyal to a bus company never everyone hates. P

With respect to you, I cannot for the life of me understand the end of your last sentence. Perhaps you became a bit too excited when writing your post.