First South West (Kernow & Buses of Somerset)

[Busaholic]

I believe around 75% of FK's operation is commercial and it's not necessarily a bad thing not relying on council contracts so it wouldn't be as bad as may at first appear.

Cornwall Council's website, last updated May 2019, states that approx 50% of bus services in Cornwall are operated under contract to the council. I'd agree with you on the last part of your sentence if we were talking about the status quo, but my understanding (which may yet prove to be a misunderstanding) of the new government-backed scheme starting in April is that with so many new initiatives on fares, etc, the council will have far more say on what is run and where, which suggests to me that FK (or whoever) will be receiving a lot more subsidy in return for large decreases in fares, for short distances anyway. Let's wait and see, but I stand by my general assessment of the situation thus far.

 

[Goldfish62]

Cornwall Council's website, last updated May 2019, states that approx 50% of bus services in Cornwall are operated under contract to the council. I'd agree with you on the last part of your sentence if we were talking about the status quo, but my understanding (which may yet prove to be a misunderstanding) of the new government-backed scheme starting in April is that with so many new initiatives on fares, etc, the council will have far more say on what is run and where, which suggests to me that FK (or whoever) will be receiving a lot more subsidy in return for large decreases in fares, for short distances anyway. Let's wait and see, but I stand by my general assessment of the situation thus far.

That 50% figure includes GoAhead, plus all the independents, most of which are 100% reliant on supported services.

There has been no change in the framework of how buses are operated in Cornwall. They're still run as per the 1985 Transport Act, with the backbone of the network being commercial and outside the council's control. While the council can stipulate the new fares structure on the supported services it can only do so through negotiation with operators on the commercial network.

 

[Goldfish62]

News over on the PCB thread is that GoAhead is the winner of everything.

 

[richw]

states that approx 50% of bus services

50% of bus routes rather than services. This includes the once weekly stuff and once daily stuff, the little age concern bus round penwith for example. It’s mainly the small indies

 

[richw]

There has been no change in the framework of how buses are operated in Cornwall. They're still run as per the 1985 Transport Act, with the backbone of the network being commercial and outside the council's control. While the council can stipulate the new fares structure on the supported services it can only do so through negotiation with operators on the commercial network.

I heard compensation will be payable to commercial operators if they accept the fare caps etc

 

[Goldfish62]

50% of bus routes rather than services. This includes the once weekly stuff and once daily stuff, the little age concern bus round penwith for example. It’s mainly the small indies

If it is indeed true that GoAhead have won everything they'll be running all this stuff!

 

[richw]

If it is indeed true that GoAhead have won everything they'll be running all this stuff!

the Cornwall council produced booklet highlights these interesting routes. Some will need minibus due to the routes and narrow villages. Polruan for example springs to mind. Something PCB or even first will be unfamiliar with in these parts. Interesting times ahead to see how this is done. Pcb of course have no infrastructure west of Bodmin other than stationing a bus or two at Roselyn in Par.

 

[Goldfish62]

It's definitely true. GoAhead have won the lot. Staff have been briefed. 130 extra vehicles required, which includes the schools routes.

FK have won Truro P&R.

 

[henairs]

I cant see why they didn't put E200 MMCs on it Reliable with a great standing capacity , & put them old Solos on something less frequent.

How about a bonfire for the old Solos, it's only once a year so far less frequent
Cheers, Mike

 

[Robertj21a]

It's definitely true. GoAhead have won the lot. Staff have been briefed. 130 extra vehicles required, which includes the schools routes.

FK have won Truro P&R.

Yes, confirmed. Amazing.

 

[Volvodart]

It's definitely true. GoAhead have won the lot. Staff have been briefed. 130 extra vehicles required, which includes the schools routes.

The Council December press release said "They also agreed that the Council will look again at who will deliver some of the school bus services from April 2020."

 

[richw]

The Council December press release said "They also agreed that the Council will look again at who will deliver some of the school bus services from April 2020."

Only around 70 out of approx 220 were awarded this time.

 

[jammy36]

I believe around 75% of FK's operation is commercial and it's not necessarily a bad thing not relying on council contracts so it wouldn't be as bad as may at first appear.

Indeed, but all the same this must be a blow to FSW, given all the hard won improvements made in Cornwall.

I understand their intension is to focus now on commercial growth through the delivery of a new business plan (20:20 Vision) - clearly they'd already wisely planned for this scenario. I believe they've already identified areas where they intend to redeploy resources into commercial growth. Might we even see some commercial registrations over tendered routes...?

This clearly gives Go-Ahead's Cornwall operations a massive boost, but conversely they will now have to commit significant investment to deliver these newly won services. There will surely be much pressure on management to ensure this investment is sustainable - what happens down the line if they lose all this work at the end of the contract...

 

[Goldfish62]

Indeed, but all the same this must be a blow to FSW, given all the hard won improvements made in Cornwall.

I understand their intension is to focus now on commercial growth through the delivery of a new business plan (20:20 Vision) - clearly they'd already wisely planned for this scenario. I believe they've already identified areas where they intend to redeploy resources into commercial growth. Might we even see some commercial registrations over tendered routes...?

This clearly gives Go-Ahead's Cornwall operations a massive boost, but conversely they will now have to commit significant investment to deliver these newly won services. There will surely be much pressure on management to ensure this investment is sustainable - what happens down the line if they lose all this work at the end of the contract...

Well, I'm very glad they've planned for this scenario.

I wouldn't be at all surprised if they register some stuff commercially, particularly infill journeys in otherwise commercial services.

 

[overthewater]

There any spare stuff up for grabs?

 

[richw]

Might we even see some commercial registrations over tendered routes...?

Doesn’t this require subsidy to be removed from that route, I understood a subsidy can’t be paid where a commercial operation runs to similar route and times?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Doesn’t this require subsidy to be removed from that route, I understood a subsidy can’t be paid where a commercial operation runs to similar route and times?

That’s what I think they’re driving at. When Dorset did a similar exercise, Go Ahead won most in West Dorset so First registered the 31 on Sunday’s commercially. Conversely, Yellow Buses won the Dorchester locals and a few other bits and Go Ahead registered those. The Go Ahead team featuring Messrs Carter and Morgan-Huws.

There any spare stuff up for grabs?

As stated, GA have won the lot.

 

[Andyh82]

This to me looks to destabilise the network, as although these services are tenders, you wouldn’t know it, as many of the services are key parts of First’s network. So you’ll basically have two operators everywhere.

So it’ll be the end of the network day tickets covering anything a visitor is likely to come across, the timetable book, the maps and all the network branding.

It looks like pretty much anything that First use a E200MMC or Solo on is tendered, as are the Lizards, so I expect they will leave the county. I bet First wish they’d never bothered bringing them in.

 

[richw]

First use a E200MMC

Nowhere near.

 

[Andyh82]

It says in First’s timetable that services L1/L2 5 16/16A 35/35A 38 39/39A 46/47 55 58 68 69/69A & 95/96 are tenders?

So all that First are left with besides the double deck routes is the M6, the 20s in the St Austell area and the 50/51?

 

[swifty]

It says in First’s timetable that services L1/L2 5 16/16A 35/35A 38 39/39A 46/47 55 58 68 69/69A & 95/96 are tenders?

So all that First are left with besides the double deck routes is the M6, the 20s in the St Austell area and the 50/51?

Rough calculations but they’ll retain 80% of the current PVR, which increase in the summer months. RichW will no doubt be able to give a more accurate figure.

 

[Goldfish62]

This to me looks to destabilise the network, as although these services are tenders, you wouldn’t know it, as many of the services are key parts of First’s network. So you’ll basically have two operators everywhere.

So it’ll be the end of the network day tickets covering anything a visitor is likely to come across, the timetable book, the maps and all the network branding.

It looks like pretty much anything that First use a E200MMC or Solo on is tendered, as are the Lizards, so I expect they will leave the county. I bet First wish they’d never bothered bringing them in.

The council funded 20 of the E200 MMCs so I can't see them going anywhere.

Solos are still needed for the M6.

 

[Goldfish62]

Rough calculations but they’ll retain 80% of the current PVR, which increase in the summer months. RichW will no doubt be able to give a more accurate figure.

That's my rough estimate as well. The summer PVR will be boosted by the lucrative open top routes.

 

[Goldfish62]

It says in First’s timetable that services L1/L2 5 16/16A 35/35A 38 39/39A 46/47 55 58 68 69/69A & 95/96 are tenders?

So all that First are left with besides the double deck routes is the M6, the 20s in the St Austell area and the 50/51?

The double deck routes form the meat of the commercial network.

 

[richw]

It says in First’s timetable that services L1/L2 5 16/16A 35/35A 38 39/39A 46/47 55 58 68 69/69A & 95/96 are tenders?

So all that First are left with besides the double deck routes is the M6, the 20s in the St Austell area and the 50/51?

The 20s and 50/51 is quite a significant number of buses,

 

[busKernow]

It says in First’s timetable that services L1/L2 5 16/16A 35/35A 38 39/39A 46/47 55 58 68 69/69A & 95/96 are tenders?

So all that First are left with besides the double deck routes is the M6, the 20s in the St Austell area and the 50/51?

The whole of the Helston depot routes except Closed Door schools & Truro collage

 

[iantherev]

It’s been remarkable in the past how many tendered services mysteriously become commercially viable when another operator wins the tender.....

 

[Trainfan061193]

The whole of the Helston depot routes except Closed Door schools & Truro collage

So are you saying Go Ahead have technically won all the routes out of Helston?

 

[Andyh82]

Rough calculations but they’ll retain 80% of the current PVR, which increase in the summer months. RichW will no doubt be able to give a more accurate figure.

I don’t deny they keep a lot of their PVR, but in terms of network coverage it’s a big loss.

I mean what will they have West of Truro/Falmouth particularly in the winter, it’ll be very sparse in between the Tinner and U4 corridors.

Is all the Truro College work commercial or is that lost as well?

 

[busKernow]

So are you saying Go Ahead have technically won all the routes out of Helston?

Helston run the L1 L2 , 35/35A jointly with Falmouth , the 38 39 39A Jointly with Camborne , there are 3 closed door School routes there plus 4 college ones 3 for Truro & 1 for Penwith.