First South West (Kernow & Buses of Somerset)

[richw]

Hopefully FK will be able to keep going on like it currently is, It's so stupid of Cornwall Council to hand the whole lot of its tenders to Go-Ahead, something really that should be investigated by the CMA. Whilst GA are a good competent operator, I can't see them putting as much effort as the team at First have in the last few years.

even with the loss of work FK will be nearly twice the size as it was 5 years ago. And that’s without considering any commercial expansion.
5 years ago 100 vehicles, now 220, of which approx 50 are required for tendered work, so leaves 170 on commercial work at present. I’m sure some of those 50 will be used for commercial expansion and summer uplifts etc
The tenders aren’t particular lucrative and don’t make money.

as a side I saw an advert by Cormac, for bus cleaners throughout the county.
Liskeard, Bodmin, st Austell, Helston, penZance, Newquay, Redruth, bude, Callington and Launceston. Anything like their roadworks it’ll be ‘done dreckly’

 

[Goldfish62]

even with the loss of work FK will be nearly twice the size as it was 5 years ago. And that’s without considering any commercial expansion.
5 years ago 100 vehicles, now 220, of which approx 50 are required for tendered work, so leaves 170 on commercial work at present. I’m sure some of those 50 will be used for commercial expansion and summer uplifts etc

Then there's the school routes, for which bids have just been submitted.

 

[richw]

Then there's the school routes, for which bids have just been submitted.

At present Kernow only operates two standalone CC school contracts at Helston and the ones at Bodmin transferred from Webber’s.

Some of the 160 flows do / may fit onto Kernow’s commercial bus services.

The vast majority are currently held by independents.

In the original school tender CC wanted Euro 3 or 4, then after four years a maximum 10 year age limit. Kernow won a significant of the contracts on that basis and through the 60/40 quality/price formula.

Despite insisting they had enough money for these new specification, CC then awarded the bus contract to PCB at £3m per annum above the budget, for new services as well as existing, but deciding to fund them by not accepting the winning Kernow school prices and instead going back to tender on a much lower specification - Euro 2 and up to 22 years old at start (allowing up to 26 years old by year 4)

So despite still talking about improved quality of school contracts to make students have a positive view of buses, they’ve actually decided to allow 26 year old buses for schools, while blowing £3m more per annum on inventing more routes and frequency on routes that hardly carry anyone.

 

[devonexpress]

even with the loss of work FK will be nearly twice the size as it was 5 years ago. And that’s without considering any commercial expansion.
5 years ago 100 vehicles, now 220, of which approx 50 are required for tendered work, so leaves 170 on commercial work at present. I’m sure some of those 50 will be used for commercial expansion and summer uplifts etc
The tenders aren’t particular lucrative and don’t make money.

as a side I saw an advert by Cormac, for bus cleaners throughout the county.
Liskeard, Bodmin, st Austell, Helston, penZance, Newquay, Redruth, bude, Callington and Launceston. Anything like their roadworks it’ll be ‘done dreckly’

But that also covers the loss of Western Greyhound does it not?

 

[devonexpress]

At present Kernow only operates two standalone CC school contracts at Helston and the ones at Bodmin transferred from Webber’s.

Some of the 160 flows do / may fit onto Kernow’s commercial bus services.

The vast majority are currently held by independents.

In the original school tender CC wanted Euro 3 or 4, then after four years a maximum 10 year age limit. Kernow won a significant of the contracts on that basis and through the 60/40 quality/price formula.

Despite insisting they had enough money for these new specification, CC then awarded the bus contract to PCB at £3m per annum above the budget, for new services as well as existing, but deciding to fund them by not accepting the winning Kernow school prices and instead going back to tender on a much lower specification - Euro 2 and up to 22 years old at start (allowing up to 26 years old by year 4)

So despite still talking about improved quality of school contracts to make students have a positive view of buses, they’ve actually decided to allow 26 year old buses for schools, while blowing £3m more per annum on inventing more routes and frequency on routes that hardly carry anyone.

Sounds about right for Cornwall Council

 

[richw]

Is it fair trading that Cornwall council are appearing to be effectively supplying the cleaners? Cormac is doing the recruitment for the cleaners So not only overspending on the contracts, but employing the cleaners too, which presumably comes at an additional cost to tax payer? Unless citybus are going to pay back some of the subsidy for cleaning cost? I can be pretty sure Firsts excellent cleaners would have done it in-house had The contract gone that way! My partner made a comment this week when we went out by bus for a day, about how clean First kernow vehicles are compared to the 11 service she uses most weeks. She’d never been on a first bus before!

 

[Busaholic]

even with the loss of work FK will be nearly twice the size as it was 5 years ago. And that’s without considering any commercial expansion.
5 years ago 100 vehicles, now 220, of which approx 50 are required for tendered work, so leaves 170 on commercial work at present. I’m sure some of those 50 will be used for commercial expansion and summer uplifts etc
The tenders aren’t particular lucrative and don’t make money.

as a side I saw an advert by Cormac, for bus cleaners throughout the county.
Liskeard, Bodmin, st Austell, Helston, penZance, Newquay, Redruth, bude, Callington and Launceston. Anything like their roadworks it’ll be ‘done dreckly’

Cormac closed their Penzance depot two or three years ago and sold the site for rabbit hutches (sorry, 'housing'),now being constructed, and just a five minute walk from the bus station. With the enquiry office now closed in the bus station, there might be room for cleaners, assuming Cornwall Council and First amend the terms whereby the latter manage it. When Brookside of Relubbus were operating, their buses were never allowed into the bus station and even the Tesco free bus run by Williams of Camborne bypassed it for years.

 

[richw]

Cormac closed their Penzance depot two or three years ago and sold the site for rabbit hutches (sorry, 'housing'),now being constructed, and just a five minute walk from the bus station. With the enquiry office now closed in the bus station, there might be room for cleaners, assuming Cornwall Council and First amend the terms whereby the latter manage it. When Brookside of Relubbus were operating, their buses were never allowed into the bus station and even the Tesco free bus run by Williams of Camborne bypassed it for years.

I understand competition laws don’t allow you to refuse access but the owner/ operator/ leaseholder of a bus station can charge a reasonable departure fee

 

[Goldfish62]

Cormac closed their Penzance depot two or three years ago and sold the site for rabbit hutches (sorry, 'housing'),now being constructed, and just a five minute walk from the bus station. With the enquiry office now closed in the bus station, there might be room for cleaners, assuming Cornwall Council and First amend the terms whereby the latter manage it. When Brookside of Relubbus were operating, their buses were never allowed into the bus station and even the Tesco free bus run by Williams of Camborne bypassed it for years.

The regulations on bus station access changed a few years ago. Although FK manage the bus station, given that CC own it I presume they could dictate that cleaners are allowed there.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Hopefully FK will be able to keep going on like it currently is, It's so stupid of Cornwall Council to hand the whole lot of its tenders to Go-Ahead, something really that should be investigated by the CMA. Whilst GA are a good competent operator, I can't see them putting as much effort as the team at First have in the last few years.

The CMA won't have any remit to investigate. There was nothing to stop First, Stagecoach and Go Ahead submitting bids (and all three may have done?) nor an alliance of independent operators. Indeed, it may prove that certain indies ARE working as part of the successful bid. This approach has already been employed in Powys and Dorset so nothing against the law, and remember that as part of the bid process, there will be a "standstill period" where objections by unsuccessful tenderers can be received and evaluated.

Is it fair trading that Cornwall council are appearing to be effectively supplying the cleaners? Cormac is doing the recruitment for the cleaners So not only overspending on the contracts, but employing the cleaners too, which presumably comes at an additional cost to tax payer? Unless citybus are going to pay back some of the subsidy for cleaning cost? I can be pretty sure Firsts excellent cleaners would have done it in-house had The contract gone that way! My partner made a comment this week when we went out by bus for a day, about how clean First kernow vehicles are compared to the 11 service she uses most weeks. She’d never been on a first bus before!

I'm pretty certain that won't be the case. Corserv will be charging a commercial rate to GA and that will obviously form part of the operational cost for GA (and reflected in their price). It's a cost GA would have incurred anyway.

Doubtless First will also have costed for their cleaners in their costs.

The tenders aren’t particular lucrative and don’t make money

I'm a little sceptical of that. Were First really running tendered services with no effective competition for just the running costs? No contribution to depot or central overheads? No profit?

I understand competition laws don’t allow you to refuse access but the owner/ operator/ leaseholder of a bus station can charge a reasonable departure fee

That is correct - I think it came after a test case where Southern Vectis denied access to Newport bus station

 

[richw]

Were First really running tendered services with no effective competition for just the running costs? No contribution to depot or central overheads? No profit?

They don’t make the kind of money the commercial stuff makes, very little fares being taken as well.
Presumably these new 8 year contracts are based on projected costs over 8 years. What if non fixed costs fluctuate more than expected. Fuel price rises for example? Wage increases greater than expected due to external reasoning (min wage for April 2020 for example increases more than double inflation, were not on minimum wage but that could push towards a greater than planned rate for staff). These things could go either way of course.

 

[Cesarcollie]

They don’t make the kind of money the commercial stuff makes, very little fares being taken as well.
Presumably these new 8 year contracts are based on projected costs over 8 years. What if non fixed costs fluctuate more than expected. Fuel price rises for example? Wage increases greater than expected due to external reasoning (min wage for April 2020 for example increases more than double inflation, were not on minimum wage but that could push towards a greater than planned rate for staff). These things could go either way of course.

How do you know what margin the tenders make? None of us know that without access to the details of First’s costs and revenues.

 

[richw]

How do you know what margin the tenders make? None of us know that without access to the details of First’s costs and revenues.

Briefings

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

They don’t make the kind of money the commercial stuff makes, very little fares being taken as well.
Presumably these new 8 year contracts are based on projected costs over 8 years. What if non fixed costs fluctuate more than expected. Fuel price rises for example? Wage increases greater than expected due to external reasoning (min wage for April 2020 for example increases more than double inflation, were not on minimum wage but that could push towards a greater than planned rate for staff). These things could go either way of course.

Because these will contracts will probably have mechanisms that reflect fuel prices based at a set figure (e.g. £1 per litre) as a proportion of total operating cost with the mechanism enabling either an uplift or rebate should the £1 figure exceed or dip down past certain thresholds. Similarly, there will be some form of price certainty (e.g. yrs 1 -3) and then the ability to increase with indexation after that. There will also doubtless be some provision to increase prices to reflect any legislative changes that have a material impact on cost.

This is all standard stuff in public sector MEAT tenders.

 

[busKernow]

At present Kernow only operates two standalone CC school contracts at Helston and the ones at Bodmin transferred from Webber’s.

Some of the 160 flows do / may fit onto Kernow’s commercial bus services.

The vast majority are currently held by independents.

In the original school tender CC wanted Euro 3 or 4, then after four years a maximum 10 year age limit. Kernow won a significant of the contracts on that basis and through the 60/40 quality/price formula.

Despite insisting they had enough money for these new specification, CC then awarded the bus contract to PCB at £3m per annum above the budget, for new services as well as existing, but deciding to fund them by not accepting the winning Kernow school prices and instead going back to tender on a much lower specification - Euro 2 and up to 22 years old at start (allowing up to 26 years old by year 4)

So despite still talking about improved quality of school contracts to make students have a positive view of buses, they’ve actually decided to allow 26 year old buses for schools, while blowing £3m more per annum on inventing more routes and frequency on routes that hardly carry anyone.

Helston run 3 closed door contracts at the Moment & as for Cleaning inside & out its far from great !!! ,i really wish them well with Commercial services on the Lizard its going to take some transforming to make them pay ! im sure Group will allow it for a time especially with New Busses then when it doesn't work out what then for the Staff ?

 

[richw]

as for Cleaning inside

Every bus I’ve driven in recent times has been spotless and very clean inside. Can’t speak for depots I don’t drive vehicles from, Summercourt and Eden cleaners take a lot of pride in their vehicles,

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Briefings

I'd be somewhat surprised if the FSW team marginally costed tendered work in the past? Seems odd when they had no competition.

 

[co-tr-paul]

TBF, anything from Helston will get dirty on its first trip out ! It's the nature of our roads. I would post a shot of my car or camper but it's too wet !!!
Interested as to age of compliant vehicles on school runs as I'm sure Mounts Bay are mainly 1990s..... ??

 

[Goldfish62]

I'd be somewhat surprised if the FSW team marginally costed tendered work in the past? Seems odd when they had no competition.

They did have competition. The 2014 tender results show that commonly there were at least 2-3 bidders per route.

I think the issue was that there was no annual uplift on these contracts.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

They did have competition. The 2014 tender results show that commonly there were at least 2-3 bidders per route.

I think the issue was that there was no annual uplift on these contracts.

Surely in terms of 2014, quite a number of those contracts would have been won by Western Greyhound? First Kernow would've had very little around St Austell, Newquay or Truro. When WGL went pop in March 2015, many of those routes would've had to be retendered/awarded to FK and not certain there would've been much competition then.

 

[richw]

I think the issue was that there was no annual uplift on these contracts.

The GA award appears to be a fixed amount over the period too.

 

[Wessexbuses]

BOS Bridgwater Dart 43821 X201 HAE out in Yeovil on Route 51 today

 

[Goldfish62]

Surely in terms of 2014, quite a number of those contracts would have been won by Western Greyhound? First Kernow would've had very little around St Austell, Newquay or Truro. When WGL went pop in March 2015, many of those routes would've had to be retendered/awarded to FK and not certain there would've been much competition then.

Yes, in so much as another big player that's true.

 

[Goldfish62]

Cormac closed their Penzance depot two or three years ago and sold the site for rabbit hutches (sorry, 'housing'),now being constructed, and just a five minute walk from the bus station. With the enquiry office now closed in the bus station, there might be room for cleaners, assuming Cornwall Council and First amend the terms whereby the latter manage it. When Brookside of Relubbus were operating, their buses were never allowed into the bus station and even the Tesco free bus run by Williams of Camborne bypassed it for years.

I assume that they'll use the Cormac depot at Longrock, which is not only over the fence from the FK depot, but was the old WN outstation after Wherrytown closed.

 

[Busaholic]

I assume that they'll use the Cormac depot at Longrock, which is not only over the fence from the FK depot, but was the old WN outstation after Wherrytown closed.

I didn't realise there was one there, but it seems a reasonable assumption. Close enough to be rubbing it in a bit to FK !

 

[TechDan2002]

33301 and 33235 on T1 duties and 33236 on T2 duties this early afternoon.

 

[MrKnow]

First Southwest MD and the man behind transforming First's fortunes here in Cornwall over the last few years Alex Carter was down in Summercourt this afternoon along with his 2nd in command Marc Morgan Huws, no doubt reassuring and informing staff as to any potential changes with regard to Plymouth Citybus winning the council tendered routes.

 

[MrKnow]

My partner made a comment this week when we went out by bus for a day, about how clean First kernow vehicles are compared to the 11 service she uses most weeks. She’d never been on a first bus before!

​

without slating the hard work that First’s cleaners put in every day and I’m sure they have a very concise timescale to adhere to, this was the inside of an Enviro 200MMC I travelled on this afternoon. You’re telling me this was all from a day’s service?.....

 

[devonexpress]

without slating the hard work that First’s cleaners put in every day and I’m sure they have a very concise timescale to adhere to, this was the inside of an Enviro 200MMC I travelled on this afternoon. You’re telling me this was all from a day’s service?.....

I've been on lots of First vehicles, in comparison to Stagecoach they are a lot cleaner now a days than they where 10 years ago, back then Stagecoach vehicles where spotless.

 

[MB162435]

Uni MMC 33475 on the 17:55 T2 service from St Erth to Truro tonight, and the 19:35 T1 servcie from Truro to Camborne