First PF - left season ticket

[oversteer]

Been a rather duff Monday so far, and to top it off I left my monthly season at home, only realising after arrival at Euston.

Went straight to the excess fare window (LM) but was taken to one side by an RPI who issued the fare, I didn't have to pay anything at the time.

He said to write in after seven days and it would be cancelled, but having a look at the PF form there is an address for LM and an address for IPFAS, so who do I go to first? Or both? Do I send copies of the tickets..?

I suppose it is a valid PF, so a bit concerned about relying on its cancellation if I write to LM directly.

 

[furlong]

I suppose it is a valid PF, so a bit concerned about relying on its cancellation if I write to LM directly.

From the SRA's rules:

Season-ticket left at home. We expect allowances to be made for season-ticket holders who, for one reason or another, fail to carry their season-ticket or photocard. The system used by most operators is that a penalty fare notice will be issued, but no payment will be taken. On two occasions for each person in any 12-month period, the penalty fare will be cancelled when the passenger appeals. Some operators have procedures for cancelling penalty fares notices without having to go through the appeals process and we want to encourage this. The instructions given to authorised collectors must explain what the authorised collector and the season-ticket holder must do in this situation.

If you found the explanation unclear, then you might suggest that it be improved.

 

[CharlieSpotted]

I suppose it is a valid PF, so a bit concerned about relying on its cancellation if I write to LM directly.

If you're a twitter user, London Midland's twitter team are excellent at this sort of thing. Tweet @LondonMidland and I'm sure they'll advise.

 

[gray1404]

If you're a twitter user, London Midland's twitter team are excellent at this sort of thing. Tweet @LondonMidland and I'm sure they'll advise.

Yes, I second that, they are good! Might also be worth giving LM customer relations a call (open until 7pm tonght, and from 7am tomorrow) on 0344 811 0133 (I think its option 5). If you do call them for advise ask them to log your call and give you a reference number and to note on that file the advise they've given you.

 

[oversteer]

Thanks all. I'll give them a call.

To be fair to the RPI he did explain that it would be cancelled and I've just noticed he circled the LM address; after many months reading this forum I'm just paranoid about the whole PF process!

 

[CyrusWuff]

I'd go for the "belt and braces" approach and put in an appeal (with a scan of the season ticket and photocard) to both IPFAS and LM.

 

[oversteer]

Spoke to LM; they advised to pay, appeal to IPFAS with a copy of the season ticket, then wait for refund..

Apparently once it's gone to IPFAS it is in their hands.

 

[furlong]

Spoke to LM; they advised to pay, appeal to IPFAS with a copy of the season ticket, then wait for refund..

Apparently once it's gone to IPFAS it is in their hands.

Surprising. You should get that put into writing, if the company has now given you two contradictory answers. Only one can be correct. You should raise the matter with senior management asking again what the instructions for authorised collectors actually say should be done in these circumstances, and if need be, escalate to the DfT.

 

[gray1404]

I am disappointed to read that LM could not simply look up your PF along with the record of your season ticket and then cancel it from their end. Looking at the SRA rules though it says that on two occasions for each person in any 12-month period, the penalty fare will be cancelled when the passenger appeals. I wonder if actually they have told you the correct thing. i.e. that the passenger does actually have to appeal it to have it cancelled.

 

[CyrusWuff]

IPFAS compare Penalty Fares to Parking Tickets. Their analogy falls down, however, when you compare the appeals process for the two.

With a Penalty Charge Notice (i.e. Council parking ticket), the clock stops when you put an appeal in, and most Councils will offer the opportunity to pay at the discounted amount if your informal reps are unsuccessful, though you're in for the full amount if you take it all the way to adjudication.

With a Penalty Fare, IPFAS/IAS don't stop the clock whilst considering your appeal, and the Debt Collection process continues regardless, so a failure to pay and appeal can end up accruing additional costs if your appeal is ultimately rejected.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Spoke to LM; they advised to pay, appeal to IPFAS with a copy of the season ticket, then wait for refund..

Apparently once it's gone to IPFAS it is in their hands.

What a stupidly wasteful, costly (for the TOC) and bureaucratic way of dealing with something which could and should be very simple, which should be to cancel the PF on the spot when the ticket is presented with it at any staffed station of that TOC.

 

[CyrusWuff]

What a stupidly wasteful, costly (for the TOC) and bureaucratic way of dealing with something which could and should be very simple, which should be to cancel the PF on the spot when the ticket is presented with it at any staffed station of that TOC.

Wasteful yes, but depending on how LM deal with their PFs, it's entirely possible that RPSS already have the details ready to start churning out debt collection letters should payment not be made...

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wasteful yes, but depending on how LM deal with their PFs, it's entirely possible that RPSS already have the details ready to start churning out debt collection letters should payment not be made...

Oh, indeed, if that's the procedure it is necessary for the OP to follow it. I just think it's ridiculously bureaucratic.

 

[gray1404]

If the OP was to appeal promptly could they avoid making payment, which would then need to be refunded, i.e. because their appeal would have been heard before the time limit for paying is up and the PF cancelled already. Of course, they'd need to make sure that if they hadn't heard back from the appeal in time they did pay it to avoid any further problems.

 

[oversteer]

I think that is how it's supposed to work, but LM told me it is best to pay it then get refunded, because the late payment process runs separately to the appeal process and there is a risk if the latter is not decided before the deadline additional fees will be incurred!

 

[island]

There is no basis in law for charging late payment fees on top of penalty fares, as far as I am aware, irrespective of whether appeals are successful or not.

There is of course the threat of cancelling the PF and prosecuting in the event the passenger has committed an offence, but if no offence has been committed it is far from clear to me what obliges a passenger to pay arbitrary administrative fees.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Same as any other civil debt, is it not - i.e. debt collector fees etc?

 

[island]

Same as any other civil debt, is it not - i.e. debt collector fees etc?

But if the penalty fare appeal succeeds, there is no debt and never should have been.

 

[oversteer]

To conclude, my appeal was submitted online to IPFAS on Friday and a copy of my season ticket sent by post same day. To avoid any hassle I paid it at the same time.

Today I received an email stating that my appeal was successful and the amount paid would be refunded by LM.

I was advised that only two such appeals relating to a left season ticket would be accepted in any twelve month period.

 

[najaB]

Today I received an email stating that my appeal was successful and the amount paid would be refunded by LM.

Good to know, thanks for the update.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Good stuff, sounds entirely reasonable if a little bureaucratic.