iantherev
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Salisbury - Blandford - Dorchester corridor, I believe.
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ValleyLines142
Established Member
I have to say I do prefer the look of the classic Enviro 400 as opposed to the E400MMC. I also love the sound the Streetdecks. When they are laying over in UWE they sound brilliant!
Was referring to 2732 which I have ridden on X12 into Salisbury.
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2730/2731 are Dorchester and Henstidge based and work on X11 Dorchester-Yeovil.
2732 is Pimperne based and works X12 Salisbury-Weymouth.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
We all have our opinions and I really do appreciate where you're coming from.
However, in terms of the average passenger (who really couldn't give a fig about how a bus sounds or possibly even looks), then I think the e400mmc is a leap ahead of both the old version and the Streetdeck.
Rattly trim is not good on a new vehicle and whilst I've not experienced the travails of TH123, the Streetdecks I've been on do seem to have a few annoying rattles and squeaks. Bit disappointing really - especially as the look of them has grown on me and I do quite like it.
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Was referring to 2732 which I have ridden on X12 into Salisbury.
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2730/2731 are Dorchester and Henstidge based and work on X11 Dorchester-Yeovil.
2732 is Pimperne based and works X12 Salisbury-Weymouth.
Guys - not familiar with those vehicles but they look like standard e200s not the MMC model from a quick wander onto flickr
THarris123
Established Member
Is that the sound from the outside of a Streetdeck or inside? The inside noise is the sound of an engine overworked and very very noisy - you can't even hear the voiceover system
iantherev
Member
Despite the confident predictions in Buses, E400 MMCs are not immune from rattles and squeaks - both Plymouth based vehicles I travelled on yesterday had noises off from different locations.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Perhaps it's a special Stagecoach squeak spec??
Odd that the 56 plates that First had in Plymouth were better than Stagecoach's 07 plates in terms of build quality!
Was referring to 2732 which I have ridden on X12 into Salisbury.
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2730/2731 are Dorchester and Henstidge based and work on X11 Dorchester-Yeovil.
2732 is Pimperne based and works X12 Salisbury-Weymouth.
As TGW says, none of these vehicles are MMC's. Picture below of 2732
https://www.flickr.com/photos/dave58282/22657518943
GSC do now have 200 MMCs, a batch of 18 at Bluestar/Southampton.
Private Baxter
Established Member
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Strange as i've mostly seen E400s
Also saw 42964 on 5 still in white - makes one wonder what they have planned
Yeah I'm curious about those plain white darts, and if there is any immediate rush to get them painted. Maybe they will receive route branding for the 5 in due course, including a coloured front?? Also wonder if the MH ones will get re done, especially considering they are almost permanently on LH routes.
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A rebrand of the 126 might be a good idea and The Gorge Explorer sounds like a good name for it. B7RLEs in a similar livery to the Mendip Explorer would look very nice.
Another thing, of course, is that calling a rebanded 126 "The Gorge Explorer" wouldn't sound "cheesey".....
Dave
Nice idea, but as GW says, the 126 doesn't really serve the Gorge, and I think they are trying to link in eXplore with eXpress, which the 126 is not. Further more I believe that livery is generally reserved for express routes, but by all means prove me wrong. However I think as a marketing thing, 126 would be a good companion service to 376.
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Again, 173 and 174 aren't express routes, and therefore I don't think would really tie in, but I definitely agree that these routes should get route branding, and the B7RLEs should be the ones for the job. Maybe that's what we'll get this year. There was talk some time last year that Wells buses would get their own livery, but how true this is remains to be seen!
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TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
To be fair, the 376 isn't an express either! Besides, Gorge Explorer sounds like something on sale in Ann Summers
The blue livery has been used on expresses (like the X7 and Cymru Clipper) but also routes like the X38 in Scotland and the X1 in East Anglia that despite the numbers are not an express for good chunks of the route!
The 126 has had route branded Lynxes but I don't see the year round growth potential. The 173/4 is half hourly and has more growth potential especially given the growth in Chili and PSJ (ongoing and planned).
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Private Baxter
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To be fair, the 376 isn't an express either! Besides, Gorge Explorer sounds like something on sale in Ann Summers
The blue livery has been used on expresses (like the X7 and Cymru Clipper) but also routes like the X38 in Scotland and the X1 in East Anglia that despite the numbers are not an express for good chunks of the route!
The 126 has had route branded Lynxes but I don't see the year round growth potential. The 173/4 is half hourly and has more growth potential especially given the growth in Chili and PSJ (ongoing and planned).
The 376 isn't express you're right, and has never tried to be, but is still the most direct route between Wells and Bristol possible.
I've seen some of the streetlite maxes in Port Talbort (I think) sporting that livery, but beyond that I wouldn't know. Think the Mendip Explorer brand would fit 173/4 but I guess that is meant to be unique to 376. Still, I'm kind of expecting big things for that service this year, and hopefully all Wells buses will get the FirstMendip fleetname.
I remember the old yellow 126 branding, it was just as route branding was taking off so to speak. Route 7 in Weston still carries branding in that sort of style, as I saw on 66723 recently, making a very rare appearance outside of the town on X5 at Cribbs. First time I'd seen that one in years.
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TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
It is the same livery as you saw in Port Talbot and is supposed to be "express" livery but it isn't really. Certainly, the 173/4 is probably fulfilling a similar role as the 376 and I do think that it has the potential to grow, more than the 126.
As I'm feeling kind, here's a couple of piccies from my less than extensive library from 2006. One shows the old 376 branding on 66723 (!) leaving Pensford and then you've a decker that was blinded for the 178 - I don't know if it did operate and it is in the old outstation at Haydon - I spoil you guys!!!
(I did try and find a picture of a Lynx and I will have one somewhere.....)
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THarris123
Established Member
I agree that 173/4 has a potential to grow and it does need rebranding - i'd personally repaint 69437-42 in a similar livery as 376, but would have it branded under Bath-Wells. Then move 69457-8 to Weston and repaint these two and 69446-8 into a similar colour as 376, with Gorge Xplorer branding - yes it is cheesy and yes it doesn't serve the Gorge - but 376 doesn't serve Cheddar Gorge either and has photos of that on the buses. The 126 appeals much more to tourists, rather than 173/4 and these tourists head to Cheddar. The Xplorer brand works together with the 376.
Private Baxter
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Agree about 173/4, I can see big things for those services. 126 has always been home to some of the older buses, and is I suppose more of a seasonal route. Still does well though I gather, haven't used it since 2012.
Thanks for the pictures! I well remember 66716-26 first arriving in late 2004, and thinking how good they looked. 66721-5 were branded for 376/7 but were changed when the 375 was introduced some months later.
And Haydon outstation? Didn't know such a place existed, unless it is the Radstock one, which I didn't realise was in operation as recently as 2006. (Ten years ago this month! Did you post that intentionally?!)
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Agree with all of that, although I don't think 59 plate B&RLEs will become fixed on 126, and I like all fourteen being in Wells!!
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Agree about 173/4, I can see big things for those services. 126 has always been home to some of the older buses, and is I suppose more of a seasonal route. Still does well though I gather, haven't used it since 2012.
Thanks for the pictures! I well remember 66716-26 first arriving in late 2004, and thinking how good they looked. 66721-5 were branded for 376/7 but were changed when the 375 was introduced some months later.
And Haydon outstation? Didn't know such a place existed, unless it is the Radstock one, which I didn't realise was in operation as recently as 2006. (Ten years ago this month! Did you post that intentionally?!)
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Agree with all of that, although I don't think 59 plate B&RLEs will become fixed on 126, and I like all fourteen being in Wells!!
In terms of the 126....
The 126 is more seasonal and it isn't as strong a corridor as 173/4. In my experience, the bulk of loadings take places at the Weston end - quite a lot from Winscombe into Weston. It isn't a bad route for passenger figures (who knows about takings).
Gorge Explorer just sounds wrong as per my Ann Summers reference. Also, branding it will require 5 vehicles because of the WM/WS split. Cue people complaining that the WM ones appear elsewhere - the 173/4 is a more self contained entity!
The photos being 10 years old - that's coincidental! The Haydon outbase is Radstock. If you go from the Memorial Hall and turn up the hill to Haydon, it was in the Industrial Estate - the haulage company pictured still use the secure compound!
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
66935 at Temple Cloud
ValleyLines142
Established Member
I have to admit the E400MMC does look a more solid, sturdier model than the older version or the Streetdeck; I just don't find it attractive as the old one. Saying that, Bristol's examples (both the ex-Plymouth and ex-Leicester examples) have the narrower upper deck rear windows which I think are quite ugly. I much prefer the bigger windows on 33825-33830. But as you say, any passenger probably won't even care what their bus looks like, as long as they get to their destination!
Is that the sound from the outside of a Streetdeck or inside? The inside noise is the sound of an engine overworked and very very noisy - you can't even hear the voiceover system
Outside. From the inside, they just sound like a deeper version of a Streetlite but from the outside they appear to have a huge fan at the rear, and when one is standing at a stop or at lights somewhere they make the biggest whirring sound I've ever heard! They are very distinct sounding. 35114 deafened me in UWE this morning!
Moving on, I would like to see more colour hit Bristol. We have orange for the 1/2, pink for the 70/71 and red for the 90. I'd like to see a deep blue for maybe the 42-45, and perhaps a green for the 48(A)/49? As a keen artist (did A-level art lol), I do love my colours and what more than have a splash of colour across the public transport system in one of the country's most vibrant and brightest cities!
Finally, apologies for the retardation (if that's the word) here, but what exactly are the rules regarding non-DDA compliant buses? I thought it would mean that all non-low floor stock would need to be withdrawn, which appears to be the case, but I thought the Volvo B10BLEs (or whatever the R-BOU/S-XCR/W-EOW ones were) were all low floor? Or are there some other conditions that needed to be applied? Somebody was commenting on the side destination displays on some Yeovil and/or Bath Solos? Do they need to be a certain size/font/brightness? I have to be honest I don't know much about the whole DDA thing so if one of you talented transport folk could briefly fill me in, I'd be grateful!
THarris123
Established Member
I think demand has dropped a bit due to Webbers 26, but when I went to Weston on Saturday afternoon the bus was half full in and out of Weston, but there are still a fair few tourists getting on the 376, who then at Wells ask where the bus to Cheddar is. The 376 branding has also got the 126 advertised on there to swap at Wells to go to Cheddar. Rethinking it slightly - 3 vehicles in total should be branded with the rest in Urban (for spares). There would still be the case of a branded bus ending up elsewhere, but look at the 7 in Weston - how often do you see vehicles branded for that on other routes? The Gorge Xplorer sounds just as bad as Mendip Xplorer and just as relevant as that branding.
The whole point about branding in Wells should be for tourists - 376 is branded for tourists and the like, not necessarily commuters. The 173/4 should be branded, but not as some Xplorer route, as it's mostly for locals. The tourists on this route only tend to use it for Bath-Wells, so why brand it as Xplorer? They are profitable routes, the second most profitable in Wells, but it is mostly locals that use it.
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It involves a bit more than low floors - a vehicle needs a ramp and space for a wheelchair, as well as (I thought) needed side displays and the display boards were supposed to be lit (with LEDs?).
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TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
There are many myths and legends around DDA/PSVAR but....
- Vehicles do need to have wheelchair access so
- You need some wheelchair ramp that doesn't exceed certain degrees of steepness (I think)
- Some designs of early low floor don't actually allow wheelchairs to then actually manoeuvre once boarded - things like the Marshall Minibus (?)
- Then you have the area where wheelchairs are located and they need the "ironing board" and other requirements
- Then you need front and real route displays - they need not be LEDs; blinds will suffice as seen in London, TrentBarton, Lothian
Those are the main ones IIRC. The B10BLEs are therefore low floor but don't meet all those requirements. They can be modified, and BoS have a number that have been so done. I also believe that FEC is getting one modded and that FSY also have some done. However, I would suspect that the age and condition of most of the FSA ones counts against that - the expenditure just isn't worth it.
The issue on the 3 Yeovil ex London Solos is that they were built as compliant. However, being in London, they were fitted with roller blinds. On cascade away, they received new LEDs on the front but the side and rear displays weren't treated. Hence, whilst built as compliant, they no longer were but were still shown on the database as such. Understand this is now being addressed!
PS - the 75/76 is being trialled with blue on 37001 - an improvement on the days when it was the Brown line!!
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Not really - what you want to do is to build up the year round clientele not tourists. Tourists, in some respects, are not great business. It can be massively dependent on the weather for a start. Also, you have a business that can overload in summer and then be starved of passengers in winter. That and if you go for the tourist market, you tend to get a disproportionate number of ENCTS holders - the reason that the 173/4 is one of the more profitable routes is by virtue of its dependable year round traffic.
Focus on the 173/4 - that is where the money is
Remember that even when the 126 was half hourly, it was only on the Weston to Cheddar section and not to Wells.
EDIT: Also worth saying though that tourists can obviously help with filling up excess capacity as well so they're not all bad. The 376 with a fleet of new deckers has that capacity and therefore targeting does help.
I've wondered about the potential of extending the 173 (as was) to Glasto and Street. Some reasons you could do it but the number of Wells to Street journeys is plenty anyway. Of course, you could always link the 375/7 into the 173/4 but you wouldn't want to. Imagine Mavis being stood at the cross in Somerton waiting patiently whilst her bus runs 20 mins late because of temporary traffic lights in Radstock!!!
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Class 33
Established Member
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I would like to see the return of more all over advertising liveries on buses, which were particularly very common during the 1980's. I note there is currently one Gemini in an almost(though not on the front for some reason. Why??) all over advertising Cloudy Cider livery. Anyone seen this one? If you haven't then here it is https://www.flickr.com/photos/78213075@N04/24128764365/
It's good to see a bus like this, although the livery for this one isn't all that striking really. Would look a little better if the livery was applied to the front too! Though from the front these modern buses don't have as much bodywork on the front compared to the older buses.
It's good to see a bus like this, although the livery for this one isn't all that striking really. Would look a little better if the livery was applied to the front too! Though from the front these modern buses don't have as much bodywork on the front compared to the older buses.
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THarris123
Established Member
62242 on X39 this evening - still surprised singles are appearing on that
Also had my first trip on an ex-Leicester ALX400 - 32099 on 76 this evening. I have to say that's a lovely machine. It does look tired from the outside, but it's very well built and the inside is fine. The seats are still comfy (just about), the luggage rack is huge (I personally think that all luggage racks should be that sort of size) and there was just one small little rattle from the door. It puts our W reg ones to shame. Leicester do now how to take care of their vehicles - the E400s are fantastic too!
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I'm fully aware of the loadings and direction of demand. All i'm saying is that 3 59 reg B7s should be branded for 126 in a similar livery as 376, with the name of the Gorge Xplorer. I'm not saying they need to invest stacks of money into it, nor add in new vehicles. 126 does from my view justify the 59 plates, as well as branding, mainly because a lot of people have heard of Cheddar and would visit if they saw that branding and the 126 has 26 competing against it - a brand could change the way people look at First on that service.
173/4 are fine at the moment (apart from more evening journeys need to be added and 174 needs to serve Norton). I think they could do with new branded single decks though (preferably not Maxs).
Also had my first trip on an ex-Leicester ALX400 - 32099 on 76 this evening. I have to say that's a lovely machine. It does look tired from the outside, but it's very well built and the inside is fine. The seats are still comfy (just about), the luggage rack is huge (I personally think that all luggage racks should be that sort of size) and there was just one small little rattle from the door. It puts our W reg ones to shame. Leicester do now how to take care of their vehicles - the E400s are fantastic too!
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There are many myths and legends around DDA/PSVAR but....
- Vehicles do need to have wheelchair access so
- You need some wheelchair ramp that doesn't exceed certain degrees of steepness (I think)
- Some designs of early low floor don't actually allow wheelchairs to then actually manoeuvre once boarded - things like the Marshall Minibus (?)
- Then you have the area where wheelchairs are located and they need the "ironing board" and other requirements
- Then you need front and real route displays - they need not be LEDs; blinds will suffice as seen in London, TrentBarton, Lothian
Those are the main ones IIRC. The B10BLEs are therefore low floor but don't meet all those requirements. They can be modified, and BoS have a number that have been so done. I also believe that FEC is getting one modded and that FSY also have some done. However, I would suspect that the age and condition of most of the FSA ones counts against that - the expenditure just isn't worth it.
The issue on the 3 Yeovil ex London Solos is that they were built as compliant. However, being in London, they were fitted with roller blinds. On cascade away, they received new LEDs on the front but the side and rear displays weren't treated. Hence, whilst built as compliant, they no longer were but were still shown on the database as such. Understand this is now being addressed!
PS - the 75/76 is being trialled with blue on 37001 - an improvement on the days when it was the Brown line!!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Not really - what you want to do is to build up the year round clientele not tourists. Tourists, in some respects, are not great business. It can be massively dependent on the weather for a start. Also, you have a business that can overload in summer and then be starved of passengers in winter. That and if you go for the tourist market, you tend to get a disproportionate number of ENCTS holders - the reason that the 173/4 is one of the more profitable routes is by virtue of its dependable year round traffic.
Focus on the 173/4 - that is where the money is
Remember that even when the 126 was half hourly, it was only on the Weston to Cheddar section and not to Wells.
EDIT: Also worth saying though that tourists can obviously help with filling up excess capacity as well so they're not all bad. The 376 with a fleet of new deckers has that capacity and therefore targeting does help.
I've wondered about the potential of extending the 173 (as was) to Glasto and Street. Some reasons you could do it but the number of Wells to Street journeys is plenty anyway. Of course, you could always link the 375/7 into the 173/4 but you wouldn't want to. Imagine Mavis being stood at the cross in Somerton waiting patiently whilst her bus runs 20 mins late because of temporary traffic lights in Radstock!!!
I'm fully aware of the loadings and direction of demand. All i'm saying is that 3 59 reg B7s should be branded for 126 in a similar livery as 376, with the name of the Gorge Xplorer. I'm not saying they need to invest stacks of money into it, nor add in new vehicles. 126 does from my view justify the 59 plates, as well as branding, mainly because a lot of people have heard of Cheddar and would visit if they saw that branding and the 126 has 26 competing against it - a brand could change the way people look at First on that service.
173/4 are fine at the moment (apart from more evening journeys need to be added and 174 needs to serve Norton). I think they could do with new branded single decks though (preferably not Maxs).
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
We have differing opinions and that's fine. I just think that the 173/174 has more potential to grow the customer base and make more money than the 126 and that is probably why they've made that change to double the Bath to Wells service. However, I want them to be bolder - wifi, livery, eLeather etc and it has the capability and capacity to grow. Perhaps a better strategy might be to reintroduce the Weston to Cheddar shorts and let them do the route onto Locking Road and then the Wells to Weston service run via a quicker route down the A370 (though might not be quicker if the summer sun comes out)?
In terms of the 173/4, what else First would put on there? The uptake on the B8RLE hasn't exactly been great and even new Citaros are fewer. Perhaps e200mmcs but, as I said before, I don't know if they're any better than a Streetlite. Certainly, the industry has gone down the lightweight route.
Evening journeys might be a tall order though I seem to recall (hazily) that there was a journey at 18:39 from Wells to Bath that then worked locally (Bath to MSN and back?) before doing a 23:05 from Bath to Wells (though it may have run direct from Chilcompton to Wells rather than Gurney Slade) arriving about 00:20? Did this happen or did I dream it? Perhaps something like that could be done with a 1955 Wells to Bath having an hour off and thendoing the 2210 Bath to Paulton and return before a 2355 return to Wells - I'm sure the Wells drivers wouldn't welcome another late turn though!
matt_splat
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- 897
There was a time when a crazy idea which also was perfect for through travel that the 173 changed to 375 @ wells it lasted for several months and then was changed.
I personally would like to see the 29 extended back to wells and ran by wells depot it makes more sense being ran from the wells end
what i would like to see as well is on sundays the 173 being dropped to ever 2 hours but the 174 running every 2 hours so Bath - Wells stays hourly but running via different routes but the key sections still covered with a decent frequency you then can ditch the hourly 161 on a sunday but still have a shepton to wells service but you keep the same number of busses and drivers on the road poss saving a bus and a driver.
1905 Group
Member
All the ex-Leicester ALX400s I've been on have been awful! Threadbare seats with next to no padding, rattles, squeaks, trim coming off, and the engine idle is quite painful, for my ears at least. They're ok when moving. I've attached some images of the seats of 32074: - I can't seem to add more than one file...
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matt_splat
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the bus that use to do the 23:05 from Bath - Paulton - Shepton - Wells use to be ran by MS depot as was another 178 that use to run back empty the only Bath run 178 at the time was the radstock outstation run back in the evening.... i beleve the busses use to be X39s that ended in bath before going onto 178s
1905 Group
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1905 Group
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TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Thanks for that Matt on the late 173 - I thought it was something like that but we're talking nearly 10 years ago so was a bit hazy :roll:
I might agree with you about the Sunday 173/4 as long as the 174 gets altered to serve Chilcompton and MSN (which should be doable on a Sunday). I confess that I don't skulk around Shepton on a Sunday - is the Sunday 161 carrying many/any? I may be a pessimist but seemed a bold move (like the Sunday 375 and 54).
Wells is the sensible end to run the 29 (in SN/Cawlett days, a vehicle was outstationed in Glastonbury - in fact, until 1992 it never ran to Wells) but now there's no SCC subsidy, you just can't see them adding in another vehicle.
Personally I would do something very similar
In to Wells
4 x midlife Darts (375, 161)
6 x 55/06 reg B7RLEs (377, 126 and a spare)
Out from Wells
Solo
3 x B7Ls
6 59 reg B7RLEs (either to BH or more radically to BoS for the 28 which needs something newer IMHO particularly with the competition from Webbers).
I really can't see the 375 loadings justify the higher depreciation and extra running costs of 59 reg B7RLEs. The 126 is a bit marginal, but common sense suggests concentrating the B7Ls at a small number of depots, and giving WS the 55 regs.
I agree focussing the 59 reg B7RLEs on 173/4 and keeping a couple of spares for that plus the 376 in case of Streetdeck issues.
As for branding, I see no real point in branding for the 126. I'm not sure it will radically improve take-up. It reduces operational flexibility, particularly at small depots like Wells; inevitably buses will end up on the wrong route.
One of the Mendip Explorer Streetdecks was up on the jacks at Taunton this morning! Now that would be a surprise if they got some this year!