First West of England (Bristol, Bath & The West)

[freetoview33]

But then even before this they were pushing some buses to 18 years old+. So I'd say little hope of getting rid anytime soon! More likely to get more gas buses for routes like 1,2,48,48A and 49, with mmcs
Going to Hengrove and maybe the 376 might get some of the slightly older scanias about but I think that's the most likely.

 

[matt_splat]

But then even before this they were pushing some buses to 18 years old+. So I'd say little hope of getting rid anytime soon! More likely to get more gas buses for routes like 1,2,48,48A and 49, with mmcs
Going to Hengrove and maybe the 376 might get some of the slightly older scanias about but I think that's the most likely.

a GAS Bus made it to street and back to Bristol covering a breakdown about a week or two ago

 

[freetoview33]

a GAS Bus made it to street and back to Bristol covering a breakdown about a week or two ago

BUT all gas buses need to be based at LH, so 376 won't happen!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

But then even before this they were pushing some buses to 18 years old+. So I'd say little hope of getting rid anytime soon! More likely to get more gas buses for routes like 1,2,48,48A and 49, with mmcs
Going to Hengrove and maybe the 376 might get some of the slightly older scanias about but I think that's the most likely.

Not based on the experience of 36813/14 a couple of years ago. Believe they couldn't keep to time on there.

BUT all gas buses need to be based at LH, so 376 won't happen!

At the moment. I'd not be surprised to see, in the fullness of time, to see Hengrove or Bath get a gas fuelling facility as the technology becomes cheaper.

However, with Wells depot being so small, it won't be having CNG vehicles any time soon.

 

[carlberry]

But then even before this they were pushing some buses to 18 years old+. So I'd say little hope of getting rid anytime soon! More likely to get more gas buses for routes like 1,2,48,48A and 49, with mmcs
Going to Hengrove and maybe the 376 might get some of the slightly older scanias about but I think that's the most likely.

Without government intervention I cant see any significant new buses for two years, and those would be straight diesel (again if no subsidy is available).

 

[Private Baxter]

Without government intervention I cant see any significant new buses for two years, and those would be straight diesel (again if no subsidy is available).

May well be. Now we all the gas buses have entered service, I don't recall anything else having been announced for the rest of this year. Other than the possibility of new buses for Bath P&R (really who knows what is happening there) towards the end of the year, the gas buses might just be it. Won't rule out the possibility of new buses for 75/76 next year, gas or otherwise.

 

[matt_splat]

BUT all gas buses need to be based at LH, so 376 won't happen!

But it did do a round 376 trip though so they could pop up anywhere at the moment

One of the Bath Uni Deckers broke down in Bristol and A Cityline East did a trip down to Street and back with a Wells driver

 

[freetoview33]

Lets look at it this way, things we know.

Diesel charge in Bristol, and most likely Bath. (I think this will still happen)
Gas facilities are already at LH, so I can see the priority being getting gas buses for LH routes first as this would require the least amount of investment.
At the moment with the reduced frequency it is possible but when the full service resumes there won't be time to keep popping into LH to refill!
Lets face it Wells is doubtful to get Gas facilities, so I really can't see the 376 going to gas, maybe some newer electric bus which could be more practical.
I also have my doubts about the long term future of the bus depot in Hengrove staying where it is as Bristol City Council seem hell bent on building houses all over that area! (I don't know just a personal thought)
Would seem mad to invest in gas facilities at other depots when there is capacity for loads more gas buses at LH! Even then in years to come I think it is much more likely to be hydrogen than natural gas.
Hence I can see the first place to get new gas buses would be for the 1/2/48/48A/49 then move MMCs to other routes, but this I guess would most likely now be the beginning of 2022.

 

[carlberry]

Lets look at it this way, things we know.

Diesel charge in Bristol, and most likely Bath. (I think this will still happen)
Gas facilities are already at LH, so I can see the priority being getting gas buses for LH routes first as this would require the least amount of investment.
At the moment with the reduced frequency it is possible but when the full service resumes there won't be time to keep popping into LH to refill!
Lets face it Wells is doubtful to get Gas facilities, so I really can't see the 376 going to gas, maybe some newer electric bus which could be more practical.
I also have my doubts about the long term future of the bus depot in Hengrove staying where it is as Bristol City Council seem hell bent on building houses all over that area! (I don't know just a personal thought)
Would seem mad to invest in gas facilities at other depots when there is capacity for loads more gas buses at LH! Even then in years to come I think it is much more likely to be hydrogen than natural gas.
Hence I can see the first place to get new gas buses would be for the 1/2/48/48A/49 then move MMCs to other routes, but this I guess would most likely now be the beginning of 2022.

The Bath LEZ is approved but deferred and may get deferred again. I cant see the government signing the Bristol one off now given the likely state of the economy. Both require Euro VI, not alternative fuels which are all still more costly. First might have been tempted by more gas buses, even unsubsidised, before but I cant imagine that happening now for a few years.
If Bristol CC wanted Hengrove moved it would cost them a fortune, it's a good modern depot. I imagine First would prefer to relocate Lawrence Hill to a more modern site.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I also have my doubts about the long term future of the bus depot in Hengrove staying where it is as Bristol City Council seem hell bent on building houses all over that area! (I don't know just a personal thought)
Would seem mad to invest in gas facilities at other depots when there is capacity for loads more gas buses at LH! Even then in years to come I think it is much more likely to be hydrogen than natural gas.
Hence I can see the first place to get new gas buses would be for the 1/2/48/48A/49 then move MMCs to other routes, but this I guess would most likely now be the beginning of 2022.

Have you not noticed the Filwood Green Business Park built about 5 years ago? The long term zoning for the area is for business. I can't see First leaving and, even if BCC wanted to purchase under a CPO, they would have to pay more than the site is worth for housing.

The Bath LEZ is approved but deferred and may get deferred again. I cant see the government signing the Bristol one off now given the likely state of the economy. Both require Euro VI, not alternative fuels which are all still more costly. First might have been tempted by more gas buses, even unsubsidised, before but I cant imagine that happening now for a few years.
If Bristol CC wanted Hengrove moved it would cost them a fortune, it's a good modern depot. I imagine First would prefer to relocate Lawrence Hill to a more modern site.

Whether it's hydrogen or CNG, you're right that as the position currently is that it would be dependant on government funding. CNG might be more cost effective and I could have seen First going for it commercially. However, you are also spot on that it is now a moot point going forward, as are the CAZs.

Given where we are with the industry per se, we can't really predict what might happen. As I've said, I'd like to see something new like the FEC Scanias but I suspect that it may be some other cascade

 

[freetoview33]

Who actually owns the land, I know Filwood green was owned by the government. But now there are 150 new homes next to the business park and bus depot.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Who actually owns the land, I know Filwood green was owned by the government. But now there are 150 new homes next to the business park and bus depot.

The business park sits between the depot and the houses.

Who owns Hengrove depot? If First don't own it (and I suspect they probably do), they spent many millions on building the depot. They will have had a long lease to protect their investment and will need to be bought out of that.

 

[georgeloxton02]

Lets look at it this way, things we know.

Diesel charge in Bristol, and most likely Bath. (I think this will still happen)
Gas facilities are already at LH, so I can see the priority being getting gas buses for LH routes first as this would require the least amount of investment.
At the moment with the reduced frequency it is possible but when the full service resumes there won't be time to keep popping into LH to refill!
Lets face it Wells is doubtful to get Gas facilities, so I really can't see the 376 going to gas, maybe some newer electric bus which could be more practical.
I also have my doubts about the long term future of the bus depot in Hengrove staying where it is as Bristol City Council seem hell bent on building houses all over that area! (I don't know just a personal thought)
Would seem mad to invest in gas facilities at other depots when there is capacity for loads more gas buses at LH! Even then in years to come I think it is much more likely to be hydrogen than natural gas.
Hence I can see the first place to get new gas buses would be for the 1/2/48/48A/49 then move MMCs to other routes, but this I guess would most likely now be the beginning of 2022.

Electric buses simply won’t cope at wells, the shear amount of hills across the whole of their route network will kill electric buses and even if they did get onto the route they would probably end up dying eventually. Anyway the speed and range across the 376 and the 172/173/174 simply wouldn’t work with electric buses. Gas buses wouldn’t work either due to wells being small unless they relocated the depot which wouldn’t be practical. Euro 6 would work though, newer Cummins mmcs or scania mmcs would do the job well or even a Volvo b5tl.

 

[D2007wsm]

The business park sits between the depot and the houses.

Who owns Hengrove depot? If First don't own it (and I suspect they probably do), they spent many millions on building the depot. They will have had a long lease to protect their investment and will need to be bought out of that.

Who actually owns the land, I know Filwood green was owned by the government. But now there are 150 new homes next to the business park and bus depot.

I believe the site is owned by First. I believe when first built, First owned the plot next to the depot. This was so another depot a mirror of the existing one could be built in the future if required. This plan was subsequently dropped and the land sold.

The Bath LEZ is approved but deferred and may get deferred again. I cant see the government signing the Bristol one off now given the likely state of the economy. Both require Euro VI, not alternative fuels which are all still more costly. First might have been tempted by more gas buses, even unsubsidised, before but I cant imagine that happening now for a few years.
If Bristol CC wanted Hengrove moved it would cost them a fortune, it's a good modern depot. I imagine First would prefer to relocate Lawrence Hill to a more modern site.

I think the desire at one point was to move Lawrence Hill to a bigger, more modern site. However, I can’t see this happening now with all of the investment in the Gas Station. Plus significant investment has been made inside Enterprise House and the depot buildings.

 

[cnjb8]

When was Hengrove built?
Also, is Lawrence Hill the only depot with gas chargers? Didn't Hengrove have the green biogas bus from 2017?

 

[Tommy Walters]

When was Hengrove built?
Also, is Lawrence Hill the only depot with gas chargers? Didn't Hengrove have the green biogas bus from 2017?

They did have the 2017 gas bus, but it was fuelled at BCT's Parson Street facility, which has gas pumps for its native m1 batch of vehicles.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

When was Hengrove built?
Also, is Lawrence Hill the only depot with gas chargers? Didn't Hengrove have the green biogas bus from 2017?

Hengrove was built about 1999?

LH has gas fuelling but they have used BCT at Parson Street.

39401 (and the earlier e300) were based at Lawrence Hill for the 2. It was based at HE during late 2019 whilst LH site works were undertaken and fuelled at Parson Street as a consequence.

 

[carlberry]

Hengrove was built about 1999?

LH has gas fuelling but they have used BCT at Parson Street.

39401 (and the earlier e300) were based at Lawrence Hill for the 2. It was based at HE during late 2019 whilst LH site works were undertaken and fuelled at Parson Street as a consequence.

My guess was going to be late 1990s. When the e300 was here it was fueled at Avonmouth using some fairly basic equipment that meant it had very limited range and I believe that 39401 had the same kind of arrangement for some time (i.e. it wasn't fueled at an actual First depot).

 

[AB93]

39401 was originally fuelled via a temporary gas station unit that was situated at the back of Lawrence Hill. This would only fill the bus up to 200bar pressure, hence its allocation to a regular (short) running board each day.

The temporary unit was situated where the new full gas station was built, hence it had to be removed prior to works starting and in turn leading to 39401's re-allocation to Hengrove for the 96 while the Lawrence Hill works took place. As other have said, it went to BCT each night to fuel using their gas station during this period.

The completed Lawrence Hill gas station fills to 250bar and so 39401 is now able to do a full day in service, like the rest. It moved back to LH the week after the new gas station there opened (the same weekend that the m3 moved back for simplicity and ease of workload purposes).

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

My guess was going to be late 1990s. When the e300 was here it was fueled at Avonmouth using some fairly basic equipment that meant it had very limited range and I believe that 39401 had the same kind of arrangement for some time (i.e. it wasn't fueled at an actual First depot).

IIRC, the 42701 series of Pointer Darts were some of the last vehicles to have depot allocation plates and one of them had a WE plate on the rear virtually until withdrawal. I think the S and T reg Darts had depot codes but with vinyls and some received WE codes so Winterstoke Road was still going then. By that logic, it'll be around 1998/1999?

 

[Private Baxter]

IIRC, the 42701 series of Pointer Darts were some of the last vehicles to have depot allocation plates and one of them had a WE plate on the rear virtually until withdrawal. I think the S and T reg Darts had depot codes but with vinyls and some received WE codes so Winterstoke Road was still going then. By that logic, it'll be around 1998/1999?

Shame they don't have allocation plates anymore! Of course they'd be forever coming off and swapped, so would probably give up eventually anyway!! Recent arrivals do seem to have missed the various depot tags on the sides, so wonder if that has stopped now too?
Hard to believe there were four depots back then - What was the decision to close Winterstoke Road?

 

[cnjb8]

They did have the 2017 gas bus, but it was fuelled at BCT's Parson Street facility, which has gas pumps for its native m1 batch of vehicles.

Hengrove was built about 1999?

LH has gas fuelling but they have used BCT at Parson Street.

39401 (and the earlier e300) were based at Lawrence Hill for the 2. It was based at HE during late 2019 whilst LH site works were undertaken and fuelled at Parson Street as a consequence.

My guess was going to be late 1990s. When the e300 was here it was fueled at Avonmouth using some fairly basic equipment that meant it had very limited range and I believe that 39401 had the same kind of arrangement for some time (i.e. it wasn't fueled at an actual First depot).

39401 was originally fuelled via a temporary gas station unit that was situated at the back of Lawrence Hill. This would only fill the bus up to 200bar pressure, hence its allocation to a regular (short) running board each day.

The temporary unit was situated where the new full gas station was built, hence it had to be removed prior to works starting and in turn leading to 39401's re-allocation to Hengrove for the 96 while the Lawrence Hill works took place. As other have said, it went to BCT each night to fuel using their gas station during this period.

The completed Lawrence Hill gas station fills to 250bar and so 39401 is now able to do a full day in service, like the rest. It moved back to LH the week after the new gas station there opened (the same weekend that the m3 moved back for simplicity and ease of workload purposes).

Thank you for the responses

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Shame they don't have allocation plates anymore! Of course they'd be forever coming off and swapped, so would probably give up eventually anyway!! Recent arrivals do seem to have missed the various depot tags on the sides, so wonder if that has stopped now too?
Hard to believe there were four depots back then - What was the decision to close Winterstoke Road?

I think it depends on the depot tags. Hengrove and, oddly, Bath seem to be quick to change them whilst Lawrence Hill are decidedly laissez faire about it.

In terms of Winterstoke Road, I would assume it was a financial benefit. It was a large frontage on a main road = prime redevelopment site and hence the appearance of a retail park.

Depots tend to get redeveloped when they are in prime locations like a city centre or a main road, when they cost a small fortune to repair and maintain (like some cavernous old tram depot) or when simply, there is enough capacity in other depots to amalgamate. One thing that I always thought would a sensible thing to do (and eventually Stagecoach Devon did it) was to build a depot adjacent to a park and ride. Aside from the odd car, the place is simply empty overnight for parking....just when a bus company needs it!

There was plenty of chatter about new depot locations on this board, and JF did float the idea of an additional depot in the Cribbs or Yate area. That died simply because there wasn't the money and as @carlberry has said, the works at Lawrence Hill now make it unlikely that they'll move from there. Instead, they took the parking ground in the annex at LH (as I thought they might). Therefore, I think that HE and LH are here for the foreseeable and don't see anything else to join them

 

[Whiteway215]

On the Bath Chronicle website (Somerset Live) this morning there is an item on Ralph Allen School. In the accompanying pictures there is one of Bluebird 68000 (!!!) regarding school transport. Further down the pics is one of 51214.

 

[martyjon]

First are still on the lookout for the site north of Bristol for a depot/out station. I know a site which was identified to First between the M4 and the ring road at Willy Wicket but they were beaten hands down for the land by Travelodge who snapped up the land, obtained planning permission and are now constructing a new hotel on the site. The search for a site goes on with SGC assisting which by the way will be in a way of a replacement for Muller Road.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

First are still on the lookout for the site north of Bristol for a depot/out station. I know a site which was identified to First between the M4 and the ring road at Willy Wicket but they were beaten hands down for the land by Travelodge who snapped up the land, obtained planning permission and are now constructing a new hotel on the site. The search for a site goes on with SGC assisting which by the way will be in a way of a replacement for Muller Road.

You don't mind me asking who told you that?

If they are/were looking for a site, where you said would be a strange place to look at. At the same time of talk on this forum about another depot, I did say that moving back into the annex at LH was the most likely (and came to pass) but otherwise, I wondered if a Westbury style outbase in Yate (perhaps on the industrial estate by the station?) with a fuel bunker etc wouldn't be a bad idea.

 

[Private Baxter]

I think it depends on the depot tags. Hengrove and, oddly, Bath seem to be quick to change them whilst Lawrence Hill are decidedly laissez faire about it.

In terms of Winterstoke Road, I would assume it was a financial benefit. It was a large frontage on a main road = prime redevelopment site and hence the appearance of a retail park.

Depots tend to get redeveloped when they are in prime locations like a city centre or a main road, when they cost a small fortune to repair and maintain (like some cavernous old tram depot) or when simply, there is enough capacity in other depots to amalgamate. One thing that I always thought would a sensible thing to do (and eventually Stagecoach Devon did it) was to build a depot adjacent to a park and ride. Aside from the odd car, the place is simply empty overnight for parking....just when a bus company needs it!

There was plenty of chatter about new depot locations on this board, and JF did float the idea of an additional depot in the Cribbs or Yate area. That died simply because there wasn't the money and as @carlberry has said, the works at Lawrence Hill now make it unlikely that they'll move from there. Instead, they took the parking ground in the annex at LH (as I thought they might). Therefore, I think that HE and LH are here for the foreseeable and don't see anything else to join them

Whilst never having seen the site where Winterstoke Road depot was, I have seen Hengrove's, which is obviously very fit for purpose. The reasons you gave of course apply equally to Muller Road's closure in 2010, which was eventually redeveloped for retail use. As for a replacement northern depot, I know the idea has been discussed several times, but I'm not sure if one is needed at this time, as the other two depots can supposedly cope, and whether any bus service would benefit, but who knows what the needs will be in the future.

 

[Whiteway215]

In my old notebook thick with dust it says Winterstoke closed and Hengrove opened 21 June 1999.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Whilst never having seen the site where Winterstoke Road depot was, I have seen Hengrove's, which is obviously very fit for purpose. The reasons you gave of course apply equally to Muller Road's closure in 2010, which was eventually redeveloped for retail use. As for a replacement northern depot, I know the idea has been discussed several times, but I'm not sure if one is needed at this time, as the other two depots can supposedly cope, and whether any bus service would benefit, but who knows what the needs will be in the future.

Winterstoke Road was where the retail park in front of Bristol City's ground is (with the KFC) if you streetview it. TBH, I imagine Steve Lansdown wishes he'd bought it now!

The idea for a new depot was circulating in 2014, and JF went public on his wish in 2015. Remember, this was when First were expanding and introducing services against Wessex and so the depots were fit to burst but also they were beginning to exhaust the driver pool.

Since then, it's true that they have taken on more work with the P&Rs and also taking the U1 and U2 on, as well as bolstering some routes (e.g. SG Lynx). However, they have moved the Portishead, Clevedon and Nailsea services to Weston and have also pulled out of certain routes north of Thornbury, as well as withdrawing a number of routes that they had introduced against Wessex in 2014 so space is probably not quite the issue it was. Unless there is some marked uptick in PVR, and post Covid I wouldn't be betting on that, I think the two depots are probably sufficient.

In my old notebook thick with dust it says Winterstoke closed and Hengrove opened 21 June 1999.

My logic worked

 

[freetoview33]

IF demand does return then a new depot will be needed with all the new developments.
Like the M1 I'm guessing that was sub contracted to BCT mainly down to lack of depot space than anything else.