First time fare evasion

[Prinzealbert]

Hello

I was travelling on a C2C train without the correct ticket and caught when plain clothes inspectors made their presence known. I gave the reason that i was rushing through the barriers which are often open in a hurry and intending to buy at the destination station... in truth on this day there was someone at the barrier so if my account is checked out and I suspect it will be I’m very worried i’ve already made this worse. The inspector was fairly cordial with me but took my details and account and when checking I had given my identity accurately, mentioned on his phone that he was issuing an mg11. I’ve googled this and am subsequently very worried about what the consequences might be. Safe to say I deeply regret being a moron and won’t be doing it again, idiot that I am. Mean time I would appreciate any help anyone can give about what the likely process is from here. When I asked the gentleman he speculated i’d be looking at a fine of £80 ish based on a ticket cost of £12.90. I’m worried that in fact I’ll be taken to court and that the explanation I gave will come back to haunt me - ie they will think, you never intended to pay that fare and you’ve now made it worse by not just admitting to that. For his final question about whether I intended to evade the fare (which he prefaced with “we ask everyone this”) I said no. I haven’t got any previous offences for this or anything and have no history of fare evasion on a record anywhere. Please help with any advice or insight - much appreciated.

 

[Stigy]

It very much depends on C2C’s policies as to what the outcome will be. The £80 the staff member mentioned was probably an out of court settlement figure. Chances are he along with all revenue staff for C2C are told not to say this specifically, as he doesn’t actually know what the outcome will be. If they want to prosecute, they could do, however it’s likely for a first offence that it’ll be a settlement offer. If you reply to any correspondence by saying how sorry you are and it was a mistake you’ll never make again etc etc, you’ll stand a higher chance of settling the matter out of court.

If it does go to court, it could be a charge under railway byelaw 18, or s.5 of the Regulation of Raikways Act 1889, depending on the evidence. Fare evasion would normally be prosecuted under the latter, but requires the TOC to be able to prove beyond reasonable doubt that you intended to avoid payment, whereas the Byelaws don’t. The penalties reflect this, and as a typical example, a fine alone for Byelaw offences is usually half the average wage (£200). Regulation of railways act is typically twice that and is recordable. All fines are means tested too.

 

[Prinzealbert]

Thank you so much for your advice on this, I really appreciate you taking the time.

In terms of a settlement offer, is that likely to be in their first correspondence? And when apologising, is any acknowledgement of intent an admission of guilt that would be best avoided? Ie is it best to apologise and insist it will never happen again without an admission of guilt?

Lesson has been learned here and I will pay the fine I’m due. My biggest concern is being taken to court and I’m hoping to do the best I can when interacting with them from this point on, that will help me avoid that scenario.

Is it possible to call the company and attempt to pay a fine now, in the hope that this somehow shows willing and helps my chances (and avoids the even slight risk of any initial correspondence not reaching me)? Or is it a case of waiting for the arrival of a letter? I’ll certainly sleep better the sooner I know what’s going to happen.

Thanks again.

 

[Haywain]

In terms of a settlement offer, is that likely to be in their first correspondence? And when apologising, is any acknowledgement of intent an admission of guilt that would be best avoided? Ie is it best to apologise and insist it will never happen again without an admission of guilt?

The first letter you receive will likely ask for your version of events. At this point you should write back explaining that you understand how stupid you've been and that it won't happen again, and request that they agree a fee to cover the fare due and their costs. The likelihood is that they will then give you a figure which would settle the matter.

 

[Prinzealbert]

Thanks for the insight. Is it appropriate to apologise and acknowledge travelling without the ticket in hand and not to explain your actions? For example (in simplified form):

“I’m very sorry for my stupidity in travelling without the correct ticket. I assure you this will never happen again.”

Basically I don’t want to dig myself an even bigger hole with a dubious excuse accompanying my apology. I’m also concerned that acknowledging intent to avoid paying a fare may later make things worse.

Thanks for your help with this.

 

[Hadders]

I agree with @Haywain Write a concise letter explaining that you regret what you did, have learned from the incident and offer to pay the outstanding fare plus the rail company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter. Hopefully they will offer you an out of court settlement.

 

[Haywain]

Is it appropriate to apologise and acknowledge travelling without the ticket in hand and not to explain your actions? For example (in simplified form):

“I’m very sorry for my stupidity in travelling without the correct ticket. I assure you this will never happen again.”

Basically I don’t want to dig myself an even bigger hole with a dubious excuse accompanying my apology. I’m also concerned that acknowledging intent to avoid paying a fare may later make things worse.

This is pretty much what you would do. They already know that you evaded the fare, but they don't know that you acknowledge it was something you shouldn't have done and that you are remorseful and have learned a lesson.

If you search this section of the forum you will find other threads with suggestions about what to write.

 

[Prinzealbert]

I agree with @Haywain Write a concise letter explaining that you regret what you did, have learned from the incident and offer to pay the outstanding fare plus the rail company's administrative costs in dealing with the matter. Hopefully they will offer you an out of court settlement.

Thanks @Hadders and also thanks @Haywain and @Stigy

Is it a matter of waiting now to receive their correspondence or might it help my cause to contact them by letter in advance to apologising and offering the above? Cheers all, your generosity in replying really helps.

 

[Prinzealbert]

This is pretty much what you would do. They already know that you evaded the fare, but they don't know that you acknowledge it was something you shouldn't have done and that you are remorseful and have learned a lesson.

If you search this section of the forum you will find other threads with suggestions about what to write.

Much appreciated - thank you for the sharing your advice.

 

[Haywain]

Is it a matter of waiting now to receive their correspondence or might it help my cause to contact them by letter in advance to apologising and offering the above?

Wait for a letter to arrive, that will ensure you are responding to the correct case handler. And this post https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/arriva-revenue-protection-help.164126/#post-3454902 might help with letter content, although it doesn't need to be quite so long. When the time comes there are people here (including me) who will cast an eye over a letter before it is sent and give advice. Feel free to PM at the time.

 

[Prinzealbert]

Wait for a letter to arrive, that will ensure you are responding to the correct case handler. And this post https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/arriva-revenue-protection-help.164126/#post-3454902 might help with letter content, although it doesn't need to be quite so long. When the time comes there are people here (including me) who will cast an eye over a letter before it is sent and give advice. Feel free to PM at the time.

This is so kind of you, thank so much. I will do at the time. Really, thanks a lot.

 

[Puffing Devil]

If it does go to court, it could be a charge under railway byelaw 18, or s.5 of the Regulation of Raikways Act 1889, depending on the evidence. Fare evasion would normally be prosecuted under the latter, but requires the TOC to be able to prove beyond reasonable doubt that you intended to avoid payment, whereas the Byelaws don’t. The penalties reflect this, and as a typical example, a fine alone for Byelaw offences is usually half the average wage (£200). Regulation of railways act is typically twice that and is recordable. All fines are means tested too.

You're slightly out with the fine amounts. There are no guidelines for Byelaw offences and Magistrates normally use the same guideline for both Byelaws and the Regulation of Railways Act, which have a starting point of a Band A fine. For a defendant pleading guilty, this would be 33% of their (not average) weekly income + victim surcharge + prosecution costs + fare avoided. Hopefully, the OP won't get that far.

 

[NoOnesFool]

Hello

I was travelling on a C2C train without the correct ticket and caught when plain clothes inspectors made their presence known. I gave the reason that i was rushing through the barriers which are often open in a hurry and intending to buy at the destination station... in truth on this day there was someone at the barrier so if my account is checked out and I suspect it will be I’m very worried i’ve already made this worse. The inspector was fairly cordial with me but took my details and account and when checking I had given my identity accurately, mentioned on his phone that he was issuing an mg11. I’ve googled this and am subsequently very worried about what the consequences might be. Safe to say I deeply regret being a moron and won’t be doing it again, idiot that I am. Mean time I would appreciate any help anyone can give about what the likely process is from here. When I asked the gentleman he speculated i’d be looking at a fine of £80 ish based on a ticket cost of £12.90. I’m worried that in fact I’ll be taken to court and that the explanation I gave will come back to haunt me - ie they will think, you never intended to pay that fare and you’ve now made it worse by not just admitting to that. For his final question about whether I intended to evade the fare (which he prefaced with “we ask everyone this”) I said no. I haven’t got any previous offences for this or anything and have no history of fare evasion on a record anywhere. Please help with any advice or insight - much appreciated.

Can you just clarify please, did you present any ticket at all to the Revenue Officer? If not, how did you get through the barriers? The fact that your origin station was barriered and you managed to slip through doesn't help unfortunately. C2C could possibly settle out of court, but that is not a given. Different employers may take different views on a RORA 1889 conviction, but I have heard in other forums of people with this type of conviction going on to their chosen career path.
The main thing that stands out is the fact that there was a barrier at the station you claimed you began your journey at, which makes me wonder if you told a porky and which could be why the RPO went for an MG11.

 

[Prinzealbert]

Can you just clarify please, did you present any ticket at all to the Revenue Officer? If not, how did you get through the barriers? The fact that your origin station was barriered and you managed to slip through doesn't help unfortunately. C2C could possibly settle out of court, but that is not a given. Different employers may take different views on a RORA 1889 conviction, but I have heard in other forums of people with this type of conviction going on to their chosen career path.
The main thing that stands out is the fact that there was a barrier at the station you claimed you began your journey at, which makes me wonder if you told a porky and which could be why the RPO went for an MG11.

Hi and thanks for responding

Indeed I did tell a porky, sorry if I wasn’t clear on that above. I won’t go into the reasons for deciding not to buy the correct ticket, safe to say it was completely stupid on my part. Ultimately I bought a ticket for a shorter journey and then in a moment of madness claimed to have not bought one at all and rushed through intending to buy at the other end, as this is sometimes allowed at the station in question (which it has been historically and I presume is exactly what c2c we’re cracking down on when I fell foul). I’m worried that I’ve probably already made it much worse than it needed to be.

The facts are that I moved to the area and line three weeks ago (I mention this in case it’s relevant in proving to them I’m not a long term offender) and this is the first time anything like it has happened to me (which I’m hoping will play in my favour).

To be honest the situation I created and how I feel now has been a wake up call to me, I’m determined not to be so stupid and put myself in a similar situation again.

 

[Prinzealbert]

Can you just clarify please, did you present any ticket at all to the Revenue Officer? If not, how did you get through the barriers? The fact that your origin station was barriered and you managed to slip through doesn't help unfortunately. C2C could possibly settle out of court, but that is not a given. Different employers may take different views on a RORA 1889 conviction, but I have heard in other forums of people with this type of conviction going on to their chosen career path.
The main thing that stands out is the fact that there was a barrier at the station you claimed you began your journey at, which makes me wonder if you told a porky and which could be why the RPO went for an MG11.

Just to be clear, there is a barrier that is manned sometimes and other times swings open and often on this gate if in a hurry, the person on it will let you buy at the other end.

 

[NoOnesFool]

Hi and thanks for responding

Indeed I did tell a porky, sorry if I wasn’t clear on that above. I won’t go into the reasons for deciding not to buy the correct ticket, safe to say it was completely stupid on my part. Ultimately I bought a ticket for a shorter journey and then in a moment of madness claimed to have not bought one at all and rushed through intending to buy at the other end, as this is sometimes allowed at the station in question (which it has been historically and I presume is exactly what c2c we’re cracking down on when I fell foul). I’m worried that I’ve probably already made it much worse than it needed to be.

The facts are that I moved to the area and line three weeks ago (I mention this in case it’s relevant in proving to them I’m not a long term offender) and this is the first time anything like it has happened to me (which I’m hoping will play in my favour).

To be honest the situation I created and how I feel now has been a wake up call to me, I’m determined not to be so stupid and put myself in a similar situation again.

Ah, I see. You're right, fare evasion is something that TOCs are cracking down on. But, this being your first offence will also work in your favour. If you can try to be as honest as you were in your last post in your response to your letter from C2C, then you will have the best chance of them offering an out of court settlement. Stick to the facts, be apologetic and assure that it will not happen again.

 

[Prinzealbert]

Ah, I see. You're right, fare evasion is something that TOCs are cracking down on. But, this being your first offence will also work in your favour. If you can try to be as honest as you were in your last post in your response to your letter from C2C, then you will have the best chance of them offering an out of court settlement. Stick to the facts, be apologetic and assure that it will not happen again.

Thanks for taking the time to get back to me. I’m very worried that I’m in deep because I was dishonest with the inspector. Basically a meltdown of a morning for me, first the offence then digging a hole with a dishonest account, all of which I deeply regret now. The inspector at the time seemed to insinuate i’d be looking at a fine of around £80. It was after I googled mg11 that I started to fear much worse. And now I don’t know what to do when the letter comes because to tell the truth would contradict my earlier account and make me bang to rights - and would effectively be admitting an attempt to avoid paying the fare which I’m worried would mean a definite court summons. Would you know whether a company like c2c will ‘usually’ settle out of court if it’s a first time offence, even if the excuse given is flimsy or changes from the original explanation given?

My current plan, as discussed with others above, is to respond apologising for the situation, acknowledging I was wrong for attempting to travel without the correct ticket in hand, expressing sincere regret and assuring them it will never happen again... and not to include an explanation since I thing that will only harm my chances rather than improve them. What do you think?

Really appreciate the advice.

 

[Ld169]

If it helps, I was caught by c2c a few months back and even answered ‘yes’ when asked if I intentionally avoided paying, and received an out of court settlement offer in their first letter (which I paid immediately). From what the RPI told me (and maybe he shouldn’t have) c2c more often than not are prepared to settle out of court if it is your first offence. Obviously I can’t speak for your situation and there are no guarantees but that was my experience.

 

[Prinzealbert]

If it helps, I was caught by c2c a few months back and even answered ‘yes’ when asked if I intentionally avoided paying, and received an out of court settlement offer in their first letter (which I paid immediately). From what the RPI told me (and maybe he shouldn’t have) c2c more often than not are prepared to settle out of court if it is your first offence. Obviously I can’t speak for your situation and there are no guarantees but that was my experience.

Thanks for sharing that. My fingers are firmly crossed that this is what happens for me and i’m grateful that you let me know about your experience. Will let you know how I get on. Cheers.

 

[holemone]

Thanks for sharing that. My fingers are firmly crossed that this is what happens for me and i’m grateful that you let me know about your experience. Will let you know how I get on. Cheers.

Hi @Prinzealbert, I am in the same boat...did you manage to settle it out-of-court?

 

[Haywain]

Hi @Prinzealbert, I am in the same boat...did you manage to settle it out-of-court?

You would be better to start a new thread with details of your situation so that appropriate advice can be given to you.

 

[holemone]

Thanks for sharing that. My fingers are firmly crossed that this is what happens for me and i’m grateful that you let me know about your experience. Will let you know how I get on. Cheers.

Hi All

I received a letter from southeastern. The out-of-Court settlement is £280.

Thank god!