First Trenitalia (Avanti!) WCML branding, naming and livery

[BeardedGeezer]

We have had a company coming round for the last few weeks at Stoke, doing debranding here and there. All free-standing poster boards have been done and the decals on the main doors were done last week. Not too much more to be done IIRC

 

[EE Andy b1]

The only confusion i see is the DfT letting new franchises change the TOCs name every time the franchise changes, so going forward if a TOC operates with the same name then the confusion will mainly go away.

There was nothing wrong with Virgin Trains Pendolino service to... or Virgin Trains Super Voyager service to... or LNER Azuma service to... Trying to get an Intercity service to stand out more.
If it's a commuter train, who cares about names, you want a seat or maybe a bit of personnel standing space to get to and from work on time.

So if it's to be Avanti, then Surely Avanti Trains Pendolino service to... or Avanti West Coast service to... or Avanti Intercity service to... will be recognizable and acceptable. People get used to names if there left alone.

The problem with LNER, like has been said is that Azuma is down the sides of the leading vehicles on the trains so looks more like a TOC name rather than the trains nickname. Should have LNER down the side of each vehicle.

Please let's not get boring like the rest of Europe!

 

[bramling]

The only confusion i see is the DfT letting new franchises change the TOCs name every time the franchise changes, so going forward if a TOC operates with the same name then the confusion will mainly go away.

There was nothing wrong with Virgin Trains Pendolino service to... or Virgin Trains Super Voyager service to... or LNER Azuma service to... Trying to get an Intercity service to stand out more.
If it's a commuter train, who cares about names, you want a seat or maybe a bit of personnel standing space to get to and from work on time.

So if it's to be Avanti, then Surely Avanti Trains Pendolino service to... or Avanti West Coast service to... or Avanti Intercity service to... will be recognizable and acceptable. People get used to names if there left alone.

The problem with LNER, like has been said is that Azuma is down the sides of the leading vehicles on the trains so looks more like a TOC name rather than the trains nickname. Should have LNER down the side of each vehicle.

Please let's not get boring like the rest of Europe!

Am I the only one who finds the prospect of Avanti Trains, if that’s what it’s going to be, distinctly naff?

To me it’s utterly meaningless, and as a brand it sounds more like some like of car insurance provider rather than the operator of what should be Britain’s premier main line. It also contrasts rather negatively with a number of the other recent brands like LNER, SWR or GWR.

There would have to be some pretty top-notch marketing to make it a household name IMO. Even c2c (which I’ve also never liked) is functionally better as at least it’s catchy and somehow seems to chime with the franchise area.

I suspect Avanti will go the same way as one and Abellio, in other words in the dustbin sooner rather than later. Even meaningless Silverlink attempted to convey some sense of purpose.

Are they trying to build up a copycat of the Virgin brand image? If so it simply won’t work IMO as Virgin is built on the high flamboyant media-friendly Branson image as well as being an already-established high-profile brand. Avanti simply won’t have this to prop it up.

IMO they can do better than this nonsense!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Am I the only one who finds the prospect of Avanti Trains, if that’s what it’s going to be, distinctly naff?

No, I quite like it, to be honest. "First Horizon Trains" - now that did sound utterly naff. And would have been corrupted to something like "First Horrible Trains" or somesuch pretty quick, I reckon.

I reckon it could work with a marketing scheme based around Italian-ness - a strapline like "travel with a bit of Italian flair", themed first class menus, Italian leather seats in both classes etc as well as a red, white and green livery. Even with Brexit.

First/TI: I'll send you the bill

FWIW, National Express's German regional contracts have used "Britishness" as a selling point (and a red, white and blue livery to go with it), so it's not like it's actually a new idea!

 

[RealTrains07]

Why does it?

My parents (boomers and occasional rail users) were coming back from London yesterday, and they were confused by the announcements for "LNER Azuma" services. Northern don't advertise the "1212 Northern Pacer service to Sheffield", and people generally don't care much what the train is called. They need to know if they're boarding the right train, and if it has a multitude of names announced it causes people to worry they're on the wrong train.

Keep it simple, ffs!

Mabye LNER will drop the azuma name in its announcements once all the azumas are in service

it would make sense for first to have a name for the new trains since they will already have the pendolinos

 

[transmanche]

Am I the only one who finds the prospect of Avanti Trains, if that’s what it’s going to be, distinctly naff?

To me it’s utterly meaningless, and as a brand it sounds more like some like of car insurance provider[...]

Strange that you should mention that:
https://www.avantitravelinsurance.co.uk/

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Mabye LNER will drop the azuma name in its announcements once all the azumas are in service

it would make sense for first to have a name for the new trains since they will already have the pendolinos

Again, why do we need to announce the names for the types of trains? It just confuses people, it adds to the spurious nonsense in announcements that many on here often complain about and doesn't actually convey any useful information for the vast majority of service users. Enthusiasts are the only people who care, and they already know what sort of train it is.

 

[KC1]

Why does it?

Northern don't advertise the "1212 Northern Pacer service to Sheffield", and people generally don't care much what the train is called. They need to know if they're boarding the right train, and if it has a multitude of names announced it causes people to worry they're on the wrong train.

Keep it simple, ffs!

Couldn’t agree more.

 

[Hadders]

No-one objected when British Rail referred some of their trains as 'inter-city 125s' or 'inter-city 225s'.....

 

[61653 HTAFC]

No-one objected when British Rail referred some of their trains as 'inter-city 125s' or 'inter-city 225s'.....

I don't think they were ever announced at stations as "the 1030 Intercity 125 service to X" though... and 225s never even had it written on the side. There was also (obviously) no need for TOC names to be announced back then, so all PA announcements were more concise and to the point. Even when Sectorisation came in, there was no mention of the sector that operated a given service*.

*= I do have a vague memory of West Yorkshire local services being announced as the "1030 MetroTrain service to Huddersfield" at Leeds in the early 1990s, but it may be a false one.

P.S. after saying "Avanti Trains" and "Avanti Rail" over in my head a few times, it occurs to me that it sounds a bit like "anti trains"... so if that's the name they're going with I wish them luck, they'll need it!

 

[BucksBones]

I don't really think all that much of the name Avanti (it reminds me of the old ALT / AVANTI pedestrian crossing signs in Italy rather than anything swish and modern) but people would get used to it.

The big problem for me, though, is that nearly* every other operator in the country has a geographically based name. London & North Eastern Railway, Great Western Railway, East Midlands Railway..... Avanti. At least, Avanti for a few years until it has to change to something else. Makes no sense to me.

Edit: I see Avanti would carry over to future franchisees (if such a system still exists). It's still a strange choice of name though.

*Actually there are NO exceptions, are there...?

 

[pdeaves]

I don't really think all that much of the name Avanti (it reminds me of the old ALT / AVANTI pedestrian crossing signs in Italy rather than anything swish and modern) but people would get used to it.

The big problem for me, though, is that nearly* every other operator in the country has a geographically based name. London & North Eastern Railway, Great Western Railway, East Midlands Railway..... Avanti. At least, Avanti for a few years until it has to change to something else. Makes no sense to me.

Edit: I see Avanti would carry over to future franchisees (if such a system still exists). It's still a strange choice of name though.

*Actually there are NO exceptions, are there...?

I think currently the only exception is "Virgin Trains", which of course would disappear before/when Avanti might come on the scene.

 

[BucksBones]

I think currently the only exception is "Virgin Trains", which of course would disappear before/when Avanti might come on the scene.

Yes I meant after Virgin has gone.

 

[EE Andy b1]

I don't think they were ever announced at stations as "the 1030 Intercity 125 service to X" though... !

I remember it well, they did announce "Intercity 125 service to Bristol Temple Meads" and the like in the first few years under British Railways. They made a big thing about Intercity 125 as it was a bit of a saviour for longer distance travel

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I remember it well, they did announce "Intercity 125 service to Bristol Temple Meads" and the like in the first few years under British Railways. They made a big thing about Intercity 125 as it was a bit of a saviour for longer distance travel

That's too far back in time for me (not often I get to feel young! ), though I do indeed recall that BR (and later the Inter-City sector) did rightly make a big deal about IC125s in their marketing... but when it was BR there was no confusion about who was running the service, and far less complication in terms of ticket validity. Advances were nowhere near as common so there was less cause for occasional users to stress about boarding the wrong train and being hit with an unexpected penalty fare.

This idea that separating services out based on which rolling stock is used is in some way positive or helpful has no grounding in reality.

I don't believe British Rail as a brand or organisation will ever return, so announcements at stations served by multiple operators will need to specify who is operating any given service. But listing anything more than the operator, scheduled departure time, destination and calling points just muddies the water and confuses people.

Given how protective businesses are over their "intellectual property", I'm surprised that Virgin Rail Group didn't claim ownership of the Azuma name... I only wish they had, so we wouldn't be lumbered with it!

 

[Steddenm]

How long have the 390 seat reservation systems said "reserved if unoccupied". Seems odd.

 

[The_Train]

Doesn't the announcement of the type of train actually help people to know where to stand on the platform, particularly with VTWC as they operate 2 types (3 if you class the 9 car and 11 car Pendos differently)?

As an example at Stafford people waiting for the Liverpool-London service will generally spread out across the length of the platform and are then reassured by the announcement that it is a Pendolino service. If someone was stood at the end of the platform and an unannounced Voyager arrived, they would be in for a mad dash to get back to the middle of the platform.

As for the Avanti name, I quite like it if that's what they go with.

 

[pdeaves]

How long have the 390 seat reservation systems said "reserved if unoccupied". Seems odd.

View attachment 70108

That's 'available if unoccupied', i.e. the train has passed the station from where the reservation came in but the passenger may not have turned up.

 

[Chris217]

Funny having to use train type names for services like Pendolino and Azumas.

Good job they dont use the nicknames tho.

Welcome aboard this Transport for Wales
Dog box(cl 153) service from Swansea to Shrewsbury lol.
At least a Pacer sounds quicker lol.

Company names can be hilariously used too.
C2C for instance...
Travel from C2C?
Why bother getting on if you are getting off the same stop!

Wonder if all the EMR trains go to Kingsbury?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Funny having to use train type names for services like Pendolino and Azumas.

It's worth using train categorisation where you have distinct service packages, e.g. a Virgin Pendolino service has a different food offering in 1st to a Virgin Voyager service. Or where different categories have different stopping patterns. The UK is one of the few countries that mostly doesn't do it.

 

[BigCj34]

Bit surprised it hasn't taken the generic and classic LMS brand, surely Avanti would have to go should the franchisee change hands again, unlike GWR and LNER which can carry on using the same branding.

 

[pdeaves]

Bit surprised it hasn't taken the generic and classic LMS brand

We don't actually know that yet, until the final 'look' is revealed at the end of the month.

surely Avanti would have to go should the franchisee change hands again

Not necessarily. It could be a name that passes with the TOC whoever owns it.

 

[RealTrains07]

Again, why do we need to announce the names for the types of trains? It just confuses people, it adds to the spurious nonsense in announcements that many on here often complain about and doesn't actually convey any useful information for the vast majority of service users. Enthusiasts are the only people who care, and they already know what sort of train it is.

Nobody seems to complain when you hear announcements like “9 coach virgin pendolino to london euston”

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Nobody seems to complain when you hear announcements like “9 coach virgin pendolino to london euston”

I've crossed out the unnecessary bit for you there... I was tempted to also remove "Virgin" but I guess as long as we have the structure of the industry the way we do, TOC names need to stay.

I'd rather we had a numbering system for different routes like flights and most European railways have. Of all the things Branson could have brought from the airlines, he should have done that instead of the silly tiny windows, plasticky overpriced food and daft "wacky" advertising!

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd rather we had a numbering system for different routes like flights and most European railways have. Of all the things Branson could have brought from the airlines, he should have done that instead of the silly tiny windows, plasticky overpriced food and daft "wacky" advertising!

He did, they just didn't catch on and the displays now show the headcode.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

He did, they just didn't catch on and the displays now show the headcode.

I suppose the system they have in Germany is already well established, so even as other operators (such as National Express, ironically) have started up there there's a system already in place. Introducing such a system to an already fragmented GB railway was always going to be difficult. Particularly if one operator tried to start the system rather than it being initiated by the DfT or ORR.

If we were to adopt such a system, rather than each individual service having a unique number it would be better (in my humble opinion) to have a number for the route: so for example Euston to Liverpool services would all be IC12 (or whatever), and all Euston to Manchester via Stoke services with the standard stopping pattern would also share a number (IC01 for example), a bit like bus routes (at least pre-deregulation, before we had the silly situation where some towns have multiple routes numbered 1!).

 

[Bletchleyite]

I suppose the system they have in Germany is already well established, so even as other operators (such as National Express, ironically) have started up there there's a system already in place. Introducing such a system to an already fragmented GB railway was always going to be difficult.

If we were to adopt such a system, rather than each individual service having a unique number it would be better (in my humble opinion) to have a number for the route: so for example Euston to Liverpool services would all be IC12 (or whatever), and all Euston to Manchester via Stoke services with the standard stopping pattern would also share a number (IC01 for example), a bit like bus routes (at least pre-deregulation, before we had the silly situation where some towns have multiple routes numbered 1!).

That's how VT did it. The routes were numbered, then a suffix for each train. So for example Liverpool-Euston might have been VT2, and a given train might be VT2014. It was all very Germanic, but for some reason I don't understand it has never been made properly public even though, like Germany, every single passenger train has such a number (called the Retail Service ID - it can be seen on RTT if you want to know what it is).

 

[61653 HTAFC]

That's how VT did it. The routes were numbered, then a suffix for each train. So for example Liverpool-Euston might have been VT2, and a given train might be VT2014. It was all very Germanic, but for some reason I don't understand it has never been made properly public even though, like Germany, every single passenger train has such a number (called the Retail Service ID - it can be seen on RTT if you want to know what it is).

If a numbering system could be established it could work well, but we're in danger of going way off-topic (apologies, mods!)... if there's much more to be said on the subject it might be worth starting a new thread (perhaps in Speculative ideas, or in the general railway discussion section). What do people think?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Renfe has a complicated list of train types, one of which is Avant - a bit too close to Avanti for comfort if you ask me.
Avant services are at the bottom end of the high-speed bracket, with a lower top speed (250km/h) and making more stops than AVE-branded trains.
They use CAF/Alstom S-104 sets (Pendolino-based) and are classified Media Distanca.
They run regional services on the high speed lines from Madrid to places like Toledo, Salamanca and Valladolid.

 

[Bletchleyite]

If a numbering system could be established it could work well, but we're in danger of going way off-topic (apologies, mods!)... if there's much more to be said on the subject it might be worth starting a new thread (perhaps in Speculative ideas, or in the general railway discussion section). What do people think?

It's been discussed in the past - I'm not sure there's much to add to it - but don't let me stop you!