First Group: General Discussion

[Observer]

The ERG/VIX machines were tried out in other areas too I believe. I believe they were supposed to go to Glasgow and likely other areas but that stopped for some reason and then years later after a trial they decided to switch all areas to Ticketer machines, a platform which seems to be getting favoured by a lot of major operators now (aside from Stagecoach).

Let's be honest, the Almex machines were not good compared to other offerings out there. They did not have a good lifespan compared to other machines (they were lucky to last ten years) plus when they switched Aberdeen to the newer Almex model there were nothing but problems which was likely the final nail in the coffin for them.

 

[Cesarcollie]

The ERG/VIX machines were tried out in other areas too I believe. I believe they were supposed to go to Glasgow and likely other areas but that stopped for some reason and then years later after a trial they decided to switch all areas to Ticketer machines, a platform which seems to be getting favoured by a lot of major operators now (aside from Stagecoach).

Let's be honest, the Almex machines were not good compared to other offerings out there. They did not have a good lifespan compared to other machines (they were lucky to last ten years) plus when they switched Aberdeen to the newer Almex model there were nothing but problems which was likely the final nail in the coffin for them.

I think Essex were on Almex save for Chelmsford P & R services which used ERG/VIX - not sure why!!

 

[Jordan Adam]

Let's be honest, the Almex machines were not good compared to other offerings out there. They did not have a good lifespan compared to other machines (they were lucky to last ten years) plus when they switched Aberdeen to the newer Almex model there were nothing but problems which was likely the final nail in the coffin for them.

The main issues on the newer Alemex machines were much and such the same as the old ones. GPS constantly not working which meant the automatic ticket staging didn't work. So drivers were always using manual staging, which must get frustrating for them after a few hours at the wheel. Funnily enough when the Ticketers first started they had a similar issue, but it was quickly resolved and they've been fine since.

From what i've seen though with Stagecoach here the ERG machines are nothing but bother, the buttons on them seem to need about 10 bangs before they do anything, and then the printer jams every time it tries to print a ticket. If i'm not mistaken York have/had ERG machines at one point too.

 

[WatcherZero]

Further the new chairman has signalled last week that after the cutbacks they are interested in breaking up and selling the remains of the Greyhound Canada operations piecemeal to realise best value, and that they were looking at ways to realise the value of other First Group assets (management code for selling off more divisions).

 

[Volvodart]

He just repeated what was said at the full year`s results announcement, nothing more. With the relatively large vote against his reappointment, I would not be surprised if he is soon to be replaced

 

[WatcherZero]

15% hardly large, the same 15% voted against the final renumeration package of O'Toole (£1m and 3 months pay and benefits totalling £699,000).

 

[InspectorBloke]

I think Essex were on Almex save for Chelmsford P & R services which used ERG/VIX - not sure why!!

All of Essex used Vix machines prior to Ticketer. IIRC, First Essex received some money towards the purchase of the new Vix machines. The Almex machines seemed to have a lot of problems, especially with GPS tracking, which I think also hastened their demise in Essex.

 

[WatcherZero]

Interview with the Chief Exec of National Express in the Times today, says hes been explicitly banned by his board from proposing any rail franchise bidding or bidding to acquire the whole of First Group intact, though he would be interested in bidding solely for their UK bus operations when the group is broken up (which he talks about happening imminently).

 

[winston270twm]

Interview with the Chief Exec of National Express in the Times today, says hes been explicitly banned by his board from proposing any rail franchise bidding or bidding to acquire the whole of First Group intact, though he would be interested in bidding solely for their UK bus operations when the group is broken up (which he talks about happening imminently).

Very interesting and not an unexpected surprise...… It's been a very wise move to steer well clear of UK Rail Franchises for NX.

Surprised NX are interested in the entire division and not just the Crown Jewels...

 

[Robertj21a]

I would have thought that NatExp would be in a strong enough position to dictate which First operations they do/do not want - there's hardly likely to be a rush of eager buyers !. Can't see why they would want to buy some obvious basket cases that would need a good deal of management time and effort to have any hope of sorting out.

 

[winston270twm]

I would have thought that NatExp would be in a strong enough position to dictate which First operations they do/do not want - there's hardly likely to be a rush of eager buyers !. Can't see why they would want to buy some obvious basket cases that would need a good deal of management time and effort to have any hope of sorting out.

But equally, there's not point FGP selling off all their best UK Bus Ops & being left with the basket cases either, should anything come of it, I would have thought it will be all or nothing as regards UK Bus.

 

[Robertj21a]

But equally, there's not point FGP selling off all their best UK Bus Ops & being left with the basket cases either, should anything come of it, I would have thought it will be all or nothing as regards UK Bus.

Depends on how badly FGP want to really do something (at last !). It's quite difficult to think of other groups with sufficient clout, or interest, in taking on FGP so NatExp may be hoping to get a fire-sale bargain. I suppose one of the foreign transport groups might be interested, or perhaps we are back to simple asset strippers ?

 

[winston270twm]

Depends on how badly FGP want to really do something (at last !). It's quite difficult to think of other groups with sufficient clout, or interest, in taking on FGP so NatExp may be hoping to get a fire-sale bargain. I suppose one of the foreign transport groups might be interested, or perhaps we are back to simple asset strippers ?

Stagecoach / Arriva or Go-Ahead wouldn't be in the position to bid for all of First UK bus, so it does put NX in a unique position. There is of course foreign transport groups, but as the UK Bus market isn't presently that attractive, who knows..... Either way, it's looks as though Dean Finch going public with his bid interest, could set the ball rolling in some shape or form.

 

[Stef434]

But equally, there's not point FGP selling off all their best UK Bus Ops & being left with the basket cases either, should anything come of it, I would have thought it will be all or nothing as regards UK Bus.

There is a trend appearing within UK Bus at the moment, look at the the OpCos doing the service cuts ,the public consultations ..spot the basket cases.. there is a process UKB implement through the OpCo I see the trend starting

 

[F Great Eastern]

Wouldn't be surprised if Go-Ahead took Aircoach.

They need a North Dublin base for their growing Irish operations. as they only have a South Dublin base.

 

[overthewater]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/profits-go-up-a-gear-at-national-express-jbngwwscf Does anyone have the rest? Is there any truth about the First being brokwn up imminently? Mind you Nat Express could buy bus operations for a song and sell off any part it didn't like. To be fair, that would mean Cornwall, Somerset, stoke and Midland bluebird, IE the non city operations . It could give Places like York, Leicester, Glasgow good kick up the back side. Oh goodness Mr Javis could get control of Dundee. He really would know everyone secrets.

Quitting the UK railways is looking like the best decision National Express ever made as the coach and bus company reported soaring profits and dividends and a share price that is back to pre- financial crisis levels.

Dean Finch, chief executive, said he was finished with the dysfunctional and deeply troubled British rail industry, adding that he did not have any interest in bidding for any of the divisions that might be for sale at First Group, its stricken rival.

“If I went in to our board at the moment with a proposition for UK rail, they should shoot me,” he said when asked if National Express would look at train franchises again after getting out of the market 18 months ago with the sale of C2C, the south Essex franchise. “Timetable screw-ups, having to manage [the relationship with] Network Rail, dissatisfied customers . . . I have much better things to do with my time than deal with UK rail.

“It is tarnished. It is very risky for little commercial return. The reputational risk to my organisation far outweighs the commercial reward.”

National Express was Britain’s largest post-privatisation train operator 15 years ago, but that began to seriously unravel when in 2009 it became the second of three companies to be sacked from running the east coast main line into and out of London King’s Cross, leading to the departure of Richard Bowker, Mr Finch’s predecessor.

National Express yesterday reported half-year pre-tax profits up 13 per cent at £100 million on revenues 3 per cent higher at £1.2 billion and a 10 per cent rise in the interim dividend to 4.69p. The figures show that the UK, where it employs 6,900 people and operates 2,400 vehicles in the eponymous coach company and buses in the West Midlands, accounts for just a quarter of the group.

In Spain it operates a third of the buses and coaches. Alongside operations in Morocco that total 2,700 vehicles, on which it employs 8,500 people, Spain makes about a third more than the UK in revenues and profits and is growing at 7 per cent a year.

Nearly half the group’s revenues and profits come from the US, where it operates 24,000 vehicles, mainly yellow school buses, and employs 29,000 people. It is growing in the US by about 9 per cent.

In the UK growth is at less than 1 per cent although a strong period for the National Express coach business sent earnings in its domestic market up 21 per cent.

Asked whether he had any interest in the likely break-up of First Group, Mr Finch said he was under a “prohibition notice” from his board for such a deal. He said National Express might be interested in some of First’s UK bus operations but not the whole business.

Shares in National Express closed 22¼p higher at 421p, just shy of a new ten-year high.

 

[bussnapperwm]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/profits-go-up-a-gear-at-national-express-jbngwwscf Does anyone have the rest? Is there any truth about the First being brokwn up imminently? Mind you Nat Express could buy bus operations for a song and sell off any part it didn't like. To be fair, that would mean Cornwall, Somerset, stoke and Midland bluebird, IE the non city operations . It could give Places like York, Leicester, Glasgow good kick up the back side. Oh goodness Mr Javis could get control of Dundee. He really would know everyone secrets.

Stoke, Leicester and Worcester would be ideal to control from WM though, especially with Worcester having incursions to Birmingham on the Salt Road, should NX ever purchase those operations from first, and with them being not far from the West Midlands.

 

[Bluebirdscot66]

“If I went in to our board at the moment with a proposition for UK rail, they should shoot me,” he said when asked if National Express would look at train franchises again after getting out of the market 18 months ago with the sale of C2C, the south Essex franchise.

“Timetable screw-ups, having to manage [the relationship with] Network Rail, dissatisfied customers . . . I have much better things to do with my time than deal with UK rail.

“It is tarnished. It is very risky for little commercial return. The reputational risk to my organisation far outweighs the commercial reward.”

–– ADVERTISEMENT ––

National Express was Britain’s largest post-privatisation train operator 15 years ago, but that began to seriously unravel when in 2009 it became the second of three companies to be sacked from running the east coast main line into and out of London King’s Cross, leading to the departure of Richard Bowker, Mr Finch’s predecessor.

National Express yesterday reported half-year pre-tax profits up 13 per cent at £100 million on revenues 3 per cent higher at £1.2 billion and a 10 per cent rise in the interim dividend to 4.69p. The figures show that the UK, where it employs 6,900 people and operates 2,400 vehicles in the eponymous coach company and buses in the West Midlands, accounts for just a quarter of the group.

In Spain it operates a third of the buses and coaches. Alongside operations in Morocco that total 2,700 vehicles, on which it employs 8,500 people, Spain makes about a third more than the UK in revenues and profits and is growing at 7 per cent a year.

Nearly half the group’s revenues and profits come from the US, where it operates 24,000 vehicles, mainly yellow school buses, and employs 29,000 people. It is growing in the US by about 9 per cent.

In the UK growth is at less than 1 per cent although a strong period for the National Express coach business sent earnings in its domestic market up 21 per cent.

Asked whether he had any interest in the likely break-up of First Group, Mr Finch said he was under a “prohibition notice” from his board for such a deal. He said National Express might be interested in some of First’s UK bus operations but not the whole business.

Shares in National Express closed 22¼p higher at 421p, just shy of a new ten-year high.

 

[overthewater]

Cheers,

Stoke, Leicester and Worcester would be ideal to control from WM though, especially with Worcester having incursions to Birmingham on the Salt Road, should NX ever purchase those operations from first, and with them being not far from the West Midlands.

I would be very surprised if there were allowed to keep Worcester ie less competition etc

 

[bussnapperwm]

Cheers,

I would be very surprised if there were allowed to keep Worcester ie less competition etc

I'm sure Diamond would happily provide an incompetent form of competition for Worcester. In fact, from what I can see, it's just The 144 that's the only problem as most of Worcester is separated from the Midlands by the dark blue of Rotala.

Ironically it would be history repeating itself as Midland Red sold their Wm operations to WMPTE, who NXWM are descended from, and now you could have First Midland Red Buses selling to the former PTE operations their Worcester depot....

 

[overthewater]

I don't see within that Time piece to claim its " imminently"

 

[winston270twm]

I'm sure Diamond would happily provide an incompetent form of competition for Worcester. In fact, from what I can see, it's just The 144 that's the only problem as most of Worcester is separated from the Midlands by the dark blue of Rotala.

Ironically it would be history repeating itself as Midland Red sold their Wm operations to WMPTE, who NXWM are descended from, and now you could have First Midland Red Buses selling to the former PTE operations their Worcester depot....

The 144 doesn't really compete with NXWM's Bristol Road services, they could complement one another if the above scenario played out.

The full article suggests they're not interested in all of First UK Bus, but I guess it depends on how any deal would be packaged & how much NX wanted

 

[Simon75]

Stoke, Leicester and Worcester would be ideal to control from WM though, especially with Worcester having incursions to Birmingham on the Salt Road, should NX ever purchase those operations from first, and with them being not far from the West Midlands.

Leicester and Stoke would be ideal bolt-on for Wellgrade group (they own 6% of First Leicester) and First Potteries run 32 Hanley-Utoxetter (Trent run the swift Uttoxter-Derby). Midland Classic has Julian Pendle as a share holder also a shareholder in D&G , so that would a no no.Arriva tried with Wardle Transport and sold it off.

 

[Simon75]

Stoke, Leicester and Worcester would be ideal to control from WM though, especially with Worcester having incursions to Birmingham on the Salt Road, should NX ever purchase those operations from first, and with them being not far from the West Midlands.

Leicester and Stoke would be ideal bolt-on for Wellgrade group (they own 6% of First Leicester) and First Potteries run 32 Hanley-Utoxetter (Trent run the swift Uttoxter-Derby). Midland Classic has Julian Pendle as a share holder also a shareholder in D&G , so that would a no no.Arriva tried with Wardle Transport and sold it off.

 

[Simon75]

Stoke, Leicester and Worcester would be ideal to control from WM though, especially with Worcester having incursions to Birmingham on the Salt Road, should NX ever purchase those operations from first, and with them being not far from the West Midlands.

Leicester and Stoke would be ideal bolt-on for Wellgrade group (they own 6% of First Leicester) and First Potteries run 32 Hanley-Utoxetter (Trent run the swift Uttoxter-Derby). Midland Classic has Julian Pendle as a share holder also a shareholder in D&G , so that would a no no.Arriva tried with Wardle Transport and sold it off.

 

[winston270twm]

Leicester and Stoke would be ideal bolt-on for Wellgrade group (they own 6% of First Leicester) and First Potteries run 32 Hanley-Utoxetter (Trent run the swift Uttoxter-Derby). Midland Classic has Julian Pendle as a share holder also a shareholder in D&G , so that would a no no.Arriva tried with Wardle Transport and sold it off.

There are loads of potential scenario's, now that NX Group have gone public with their interest in acquiring some/all of First UK Bus, it may get the ball rolling if First Group are going down the break-up route. The uncertainty is doing anyone any good as present....

 

[robertclark125]

What it might do, if NX does buy any parts of Firstgroup UK Bus, is start a debate in those areas on local management structures, and liveries.

 

[overthewater]

Well if Andrew Javis is doing a good job he might swap Midland for Dundee Could Nat Exp buy UK Bus and then get rid of what it didnt want? Ie ask people who wants what?

 

[winston270twm]

Well if Andrew Javis is doing a good job he might swap Midland for Dundee Could Nat Exp buy UK Bus and then get rid of what it didnt want? Ie ask people who wants what?

I can't see First Group just selling off parts of UK Bus (like when they wanted to raise £100 Million), this time it will be a complete break-up of the group / a major disposal or continue as they are.....

Yes, if NX group were to buy all of UK Bus as a complete package, it could then sell on the bits it didn't want once it had changed hands.

 

[overthewater]

I can't see First Group just selling off parts of UK Bus (like when they wanted to raise £100 Million), this time it will be a complete break-up of the group / a major disposal or continue as they are.....

Yes, if NX group were to buy all of UK Bus as a complete package, it could then sell on the bits it didn't want once it had changed hands.

I think First group might be willing to do lots if not then Nat express really will have to line up buyers. Why dont you think First dont want to sell off parts?