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First Group: General Discussion

oldman

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Joined
26 Nov 2013
Messages
1,019
The Borders disposal was before the end of the previous year, on 26 March 2017.
And therefore makes a difference when comparing 2016/17 and 2017/18. The FSE report correctly mentions the withdrawal from East Lothian, which was in 2016, because 2017/18 was the first year completely without it.

Last year's FSE report talked about a 19% loss of revenue because of the opening of a competing rail service. This was wrong - it was down to East Lothian. The public may not know there are two companies, but the management ought to.
 
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Stan Drews

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5 Jun 2013
Messages
1,575
The results for various OpCos now being released. Ones so far:

Greater Manchester (£5760k) from (£5164k)

That’ll be the profits that Andy Burnham is so desperate to get his hands on to pay for all the bus improvements when he franchises the buses!
 

Goldfish62

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Joined
14 Feb 2010
Messages
10,017
You would have to look at individual opcos but from the ones I've spotted (a cursory glance), the pensions have actually improved. There are one offs associated with restructuring and Ticketer (which is bearing fruit in terms of revenue protection) for Opcos. FSW gets a dividend payment from SPS though.
The dividend from SPS is not accounted for in the operating profit, though, but the £0.7m spend on Ticketer is.
 

Andyh82

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19 May 2014
Messages
3,527
I don’t know who is running the First West Yorks twitter account today but they have been giving out the wrong information. Telling customers services are running that aren’t, at times that they aren’t, suggesting a normal service is being run etc.
 

GaryMcEwan

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Joined
20 Aug 2013
Messages
1,604
Location
Bridgeton, Glasgow
I don’t know who is running the First West Yorks twitter account today but they have been giving out the wrong information. Telling customers services are running that aren’t, at times that they aren’t, suggesting a normal service is being run etc.

I'm certain it's the same staff that do the Scottish ones as they've posted out stuff about Glasgow which didn't even make sense.

That's one of the downsides by having the one team post about areas they have no clue about.
 

overthewater

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Joined
16 Apr 2012
Messages
8,160
The team from Manchester.. useless prats. There used to a team in Essex? there all got the sack. First needs to sort this all out have at least have the following:

* Scotland only team
* North of England team - Manchester, Yorkshire, Stoke, and Leicester.
* South of England team - South West, East Anglia, south cost.
 

Kahuna47

Member
Joined
13 Sep 2017
Messages
112
The twitter feeds, with most of the other customer service and general depot admin, are ran from their new Shared Services Support Centre in Leeds. Everything that can be ran centrally, now is.

Local issues are now emailed by the central comms/duty allocator to the customer service team to copy and paste onto Twitter. However, how much is sent over depends on how much CBA the person on comms has!

It also explains why info can be sent to the wrong OpCos account, when one poor bugger has dozens to deal with.

K
 

overthewater

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Joined
16 Apr 2012
Messages
8,160
That is just poor, First should be ashamed of themselves. Stagecoach still manages to have local teams, why can't First?
 

Andyh82

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19 May 2014
Messages
3,527
You’d think they’d know about the Leeds arrangements more than anywhere else if 5het are based in Leeds
 

DragonEast

Member
Joined
6 Sep 2016
Messages
266
That is just poor, First should be ashamed of themselves. Stagecoach still manages to have local teams, why can't First?
Customer service is a liability not an asset. FirstBus look to the Councils to do that job for them. Can hardly blame the depots for being LOBNH when ShSvs comes calling.
 

Robertj21a

On Moderation
Joined
22 Sep 2013
Messages
7,518
Customer service is a liability not an asset. FirstBus look to the Councils to do that job for them. Can hardly blame the depots for being LOBNH when ShSvs comes calling.

Light On Buses, Not Horsepower ?

Scanias habitually Seem very special ?
 

lincman

Member
Joined
11 Jan 2014
Messages
118
First Manchester operate service 415 from Oldham to Middleton via Chadderton, the service has to be operated with single deck vehicles due to a low bridge at Middleton Junction. The service has gone from a reasonably good 20min service well used down to what is now a very poor 60 min frequency in about 2 years. To now add insult to injury the service is being diverted to avoid the bridge adding 3 miles and 15 minutes to each single journey. This route has operated with standard single deckers for more years than I care to remember, I tried to get hold of First for a comment on the changes, no response, I asked TfGM who were able to get a comment from First who stated the did not have sufficient vehicles of the right type to operate the route. Is it any wonder that the people of north Manchester are sick and tired of the poor service and pathetic excuses.
 

ivanhoe

Member
Joined
15 Jul 2009
Messages
929
Out of all of the major bus companies, First tends to get the least favourable press amongst enthusiasts and the Bus media. Go to Leicester, where First are the key City operator and initial thoughts are of a well run service. We’re upto Page 288 of First Bus , it’s still here, yet every result of their operations is under the microscope. Arriva, Stagecoach and go ahead rarely get this sort of 200+ page analysis. Is it because the general feeling is that First is a basket case, or maybe it is easier to analyse their operations in depth because their financial information is available in greater detail than say the other bus companies?This is not a criticism by the way, but would appreciate posters comments.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
20,021
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
Out of all of the major bus companies, First tends to get the least favourable press amongst enthusiasts and the Bus media. Go to Leicester, where First are the key City operator and initial thoughts are of a well run service. We’re upto Page 288 of First Bus , it’s still here, yet every result of their operations is under the microscope. Arriva, Stagecoach and go ahead rarely get this sort of 200+ page analysis. Is it because the general feeling is that First is a basket case, or maybe it is easier to analyse their operations in depth because their financial information is available in greater detail than say the other bus companies?This is not a criticism by the way, but would appreciate posters comments.

I absolutely agree with you and it is something that I have questioned before. First have traditionally attracted the ire of enthusiasts etc and, to be fair, with good reason.

The Moir era obviously overshadows everything - the rush in the late 1990s/early 2000s to be the biggest meant paying over the odds for some bus OpCos that were typified with ageing fleets, inconsistent quality, a management ethos of central diktats that saw many talented and experienced managers leave, and then the move to rail and the Laidlaw acquisition meant that capital and management time was soaked up elsewhere. However, we all know this - it's now almost ancient history. Yet still we have enthusiasts spouting stuff like... "they've been ordered by Aberdeen to do X" - perhaps in 2009 but not in 2019. "they're controlled by beancounters" - well, they're not but commercial businesses are just that and they have to be financially well run! Some people are clearly so tainted by First that they won't look at things objectively - that's what I find irritating.

Now, I had some "spare time" post redundancy in 2018, and so travelled on a lot of buses. There were a lot of First machines sampled: Manchester, South Yorkshire, West Yorkshire, Berkshire, Hampshire, Kernow, Somerset, Cymru, Worcester and most of all, West of England.

Manchester and South Yorkshire were disappointing and you can see the issues there in terms of a seeming lack of urgency, management activity etc - perhaps the problems of collapsing retail footfall and impact on patronage are soaking up management time but then you never break the cycle? In GM, is it a torpor caused by the uncertainty of franchising? If so, it's counter productive. Certainly, they are two of the larger, higher profile operations and their ills do undeniably catch the eye. Next door, West Yorkshire is pretty decent though very Leeds orientated. However, Kernow is clearly massively on the up (though related Somerset has regressed) and West of England is definitely progressing. Even those operations that have been highlighted in the past (like Berkshire and Worcester) were pretty decent on the whole.

The comparisons with other bus companies are often interesting and, I confess, I've not been to Leicester in a while (c.12-18 months) but I recall it being quite modern with Streetlites and Streetdecks, though with a few older B7 deckers and some now quite elderly (but surprisingly well turned out) B7Ls and arguably a bit better than Arriva. Is that a fair observation? Comparing First Hampshire with the adjacent Go Ahead or Stagecoach operations - well, they're all pretty decent. However, I looked at Worcester compared with Rotala - well, it's night and day. First is much better and you'd almost think the general public of Redditch or Kiddy would welcome First back. Certainly, First have done a very good job at removing the competition from Somerset, West of England, Cornwall, and seem to be continuing in the East of England. Perhaps the most telling aspect is the recent cuts to Stagecoach Midlands. It was discussed on this forum and elsewhere. However, had it been First making such changes, the amount of tooth gnashing (usually from people who live well outside the area and/or are have no connection to the area) would have been massively disproportionate.

First didn't suddenly get into trouble in 2012 - it was a 15 year long descent of poor management and hubris. We all know that. The idea that the ills could be repaired in 2/3 years was ridiculous and especially as the environment has changed with:

Burgeoning traffic congestion (as central government daren't increase fuel duty, and local government are scared of having proper bus priority as there are many more voting car drivers than bus passengers)
Falling retail footfall affecting revenue
Insufficient ENCTS remuneration
Cuts to supported services so the "jam" of evening and Sunday service subsidy is removed and the whole fixed cost burden falls on the daytime services
Apathy from some local authorities who just don't care about buses (e.g. Worcestershire)

These are industry wide issues (but of course, First was in a weaker position in which to weather them) and we are seeing continued depot closures, service reductions, etc irrespective of operators. However, it does seem that history means that First attracts more attention than other firms who get a bit of a free hit and yes, in terms of Arriva, the opacity of accounts probably supports that too.
 

ooo

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Joined
8 Jun 2015
Messages
707
Location
S
That is just poor, First should be ashamed of themselves. Stagecoach still manages to have local teams, why can't First?
Lots of Stagecoach accounts say they only respond to tweets between 9 and 5 Monday to Friday which isn't very useful
 

tbtc

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Joined
16 Dec 2008
Messages
17,882
Location
Reston City Centre
Out of all of the major bus companies, First tends to get the least favourable press amongst enthusiasts and the Bus media. Go to Leicester, where First are the key City operator and initial thoughts are of a well run service. We’re upto Page 288 of First Bus , it’s still here, yet every result of their operations is under the microscope. Arriva, Stagecoach and go ahead rarely get this sort of 200+ page analysis. Is it because the general feeling is that First is a basket case, or maybe it is easier to analyse their operations in depth because their financial information is available in greater detail than say the other bus companies?This is not a criticism by the way, but would appreciate posters comments.

I absolutely agree with you and it is something that I have questioned before. First have traditionally attracted the ire of enthusiasts etc and, to be fair, with good reason

I agree that First seem to have the worst reputation, sometimes deserved, sometimes not.

Without wanting to copy and paste all of @TheGrandWazoo 's excellent points, I'd add the following:

1. There's a kind of habit in industries to bemoan the biggest player. For example, it's easy to see people complain about McDonalds unhealthy meals or CocaCola's sugar content but Burger King/ Pepsi don't get the same level of scrutiny (admittedly, recent CocaCola have taken the decision not to alter their sugar levels when the new "tax" came in, but I'm talking over a number of years). Mention your Apple phone/tablet and people will bring up the "sweatshop" conditions in which these are made for a fraction of the cost consumers pay but how do people think Samsung or other electronics manufacturers build things? Seems common for one company to be the "lightening rod" that get complaints even though the whole industry all acts in a similar direction. That's not to defend First fully (they run my local route in Sheffield, so I've things to praise/criticise them for), but it does seem typical for one company to bear the brunt of complaints.

2. Arriva don't seem great, but they seem to fly under the radar, partly because many of their buses are either "hidden" in London (where they aren't in corporate Arriva livery and any fare/route/frequency changes are decided by TfL) or in provincial towns - other than Merseyside, they aren't the top dog in any particularly big places - lots of operations between towns in places like Kent or former NBC operations from satellite towns into cities like Newcastle/ Leeds but they are sometimes ignored because cuts in somewhere like Leighton Buzzard aren't going to make big headlines (whilst cuts in somewhere like Manchester/ Glasgow will). Arriva's mistakes (e.g. Max vs Sapphire) get ignored. Go-Ahead/ National Express/ Transdev are also fairly "regional" rather than "national", so ignored more.

3. Stagecoach had a terrible reputation twenty five years ago - it took them a long time to bring that round - but in hindsight they bought some NBC operators (and other companies) that might have felt "secondary" at the time but are in great areas for expansion. For example, I'd rather be invested in Oxford/ Cambridge than in failing towns like Rotherham/ Rochdale. Some of First's purchases felt good at the time but the municipal operations in "northern" towns are now tough territories to make a profit from. Call that hindsight/ luck/ coincidence, whatever - but it feels like First held most of the prime properties on the Monopoly board a generation ago (lucrative municipal operations) but now relative values have changed and I'd rather have Stagecoach's portfolio! Stagecoach seem more diversified - there's some big city stuff (e.g. Newcastle) but also some rural stuff (Norfolk, Cumbria, Lincolnshire), some northern stuff (e.g Yorkshire Traction, Busways) but also plenty south of the Watford Gap (Kent, Hampshire, Devon) so they seem to have weathered the storms in the UK economy better.

4. First have had a habit of expensive flagship projects that haven't worked out. Bendi-buses didn't work but then they compounded this by throwing money at "ftr". Other operators have had mixed fortunes too (e.g. Stagecoach's innovative "taxi-bus" operation from southern Fife into Edinburgh didn't last long) but First do seem to pick some odd projects and then fail to back them (e.g. Greyhound could have worked from Cardiff to Swansea but they didn't keep backing it, whilst Stagecoach built Megabus up from scratch and kept investing/ expanding). This then leads to First having depots with knackered "young" buses, like artics, sat there waiting until the Accountants tell them that they have depreciated sufficiently to permit them to be withdrawn (whilst the operator struggled on with twenty year old double deckers wheezing up hills, as these swanky young buses rotted). That's a bad look in anyone's book.

5. This is just my unscientific opinion, but a look around the UK in recent years gives the impression that Stagecoach are happy to invest new vehicles in places like Barnsley whilst First are only prepared to order new buses when the council/PTE etc get their chequebook out to help fund them, or to guarantee certain infrastructure improvements too. This is probably wholly unfair, I accept, but perception can count for a lot - First's tactic for a long time seemed to be to focus most new vehicles on London (and to a lesser extent, Bristol/ Leeds/ Glasgow), which meant most of the low floor double deckers in "provincial" fleets were knackered Tridents/ Presidents that only had about a dozen seats downstairs (due to the London requirements, with the middle door taken out), whilst Stagecoach had pulled out of London and could therefore buy new buses for each region of the group fairly regularly. There's an element of exaggeration, of course, but perception... also, First seemed to prefer to put fifty new buses into an area at once , then nothing new for five years, rather than putting ten new buses in each year. Maybe there are good reasons for that (keeps the fleet more standardised, makes training easier?), but it felt like feast/famine, and became easy for people in one area to complain that they'd not had new buses in what felt like a long time whilst other operators followed a "little and often" approach.

6. Just my opinion but First's rail operations (and north America) seemed to hurt the "bus" side of the business - they had new toys to play with - at around roughly the same time that Stagecoach's move out of London buses meant that Stagecoach were paying more attention to "provincial" buses. The ScotRail franchise may have made First a few quid but it came at a big cost to the central belt bus operations - looking at how hamstrung they were by the restrictions that they signed up to (as a price of winning the TOC), the old Eastern Scottish/ Midland Scottish operations are in a terrible shape when you compare them to the old Fife Scottish/ Western Scottish services run by Stagecoach.

7. Lastly (because this list is getting too big!), the "Transforming Travel" branding. Enthusiasts don't like any bus company that boasts about how good it is. Like the "Really Good" branding used by Transdev. the kind of people who post on Forums like this are always quick to criticise any company who boast about being brilliant, partly because it's an open-goal whenever something goes wrong. See also the "Scotland's Best Railway" tag for Abellio's new timetable - whilst technically true, any delayed train is going to attract sarcastic comments that "I thought this was supposed to be Scotland's Best Railway". Just a hunch, but I think that the slogan did more harm than good, in enthusiast circles.
 

Jordan Adam

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5,526
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Aberdeen
7. Lastly (because this list is getting too big!), the "Transforming Travel" branding. Enthusiasts don't like any bus company that boasts about how good it is. Like the "Really Good" branding used by Transdev. the kind of people who post on Forums like this are always quick to criticise any company who boast about being brilliant, partly because it's an open-goal whenever something goes wrong. See also the "Scotland's Best Railway" tag for Abellio's new timetable - whilst technically true, any delayed train is going to attract sarcastic comments that "I thought this was supposed to be Scotland's Best Railway". Just a hunch, but I think that the slogan did more harm than good, in enthusiast circles.

Good point that.

Another one that comes to mind is "Cleaner...Smarter...Travel..." as a MAN 18.240 gasses the whole street with dark black smoke and a rusty/mouldy Enviro400 follows behind.
 

ivanhoe

Member
Joined
15 Jul 2009
Messages
929
I absolutely agree with you and it is something that I have questioned before. First have traditionally attracted the ire of enthusiasts etc and, to be fair, with good reason.

The Moir era obviously overshadows everything - the rush in the late 1990s/early 2000s to be the biggest meant paying over the odds for some bus OpCos that were typified with ageing fleets, inconsistent quality, a management ethos of central diktats that saw many talented and experienced managers leave, and then the move to rail and the Laidlaw acquisition meant that capital and management time was soaked up elsewhere. However, we all know this - it's now almost ancient history. Yet still we have enthusiasts spouting stuff like... "they've been ordered by Aberdeen to do X" - perhaps in 2009 but not in 2019. "they're controlled by beancounters" - well, they're not but commercial businesses are just that and they have to be financially well run! Some people are clearly so tainted by First that they won't look at things objectively - that's what I find irritating.

Now, I had some "spare time" post redundancy in 2018, and so travelled on a lot of buses. There were a lot of First machines sampled: Manchester, South Yorkshire, West Yorkshire, Berkshire, Hampshire, Kernow, Somerset, Cymru, Worcester and most of all, West of England.

Manchester and South Yorkshire were disappointing and you can see the issues there in terms of a seeming lack of urgency, management activity etc - perhaps the problems of collapsing retail footfall and impact on patronage are soaking up management time but then you never break the cycle? In GM, is it a torpor caused by the uncertainty of franchising? If so, it's counter productive. Certainly, they are two of the larger, higher profile operations and their ills do undeniably catch the eye. Next door, West Yorkshire is pretty decent though very Leeds orientated. However, Kernow is clearly massively on the up (though related Somerset has regressed) and West of England is definitely progressing. Even those operations that have been highlighted in the past (like Berkshire and Worcester) were pretty decent on the whole.

The comparisons with other bus companies are often interesting and, I confess, I've not been to Leicester in a while (c.12-18 months) but I recall it being quite modern with Streetlites and Streetdecks, though with a few older B7 deckers and some now quite elderly (but surprisingly well turned out) B7Ls and arguably a bit better than Arriva. Is that a fair observation? Comparing First Hampshire with the adjacent Go Ahead or Stagecoach operations - well, they're all pretty decent. However, I looked at Worcester compared with Rotala - well, it's night and day. First is much better and you'd almost think the general public of Redditch or Kiddy would welcome First back. Certainly, First have done a very good job at removing the competition from Somerset, West of England, Cornwall, and seem to be continuing in the East of England. Perhaps the most telling aspect is the recent cuts to Stagecoach Midlands. It was discussed on this forum and elsewhere. However, had it been First making such changes, the amount of tooth gnashing (usually from people who live well outside the area and/or are have no connection to the area) would have been massively disproportionate.

First didn't suddenly get into trouble in 2012 - it was a 15 year long descent of poor management and hubris. We all know that. The idea that the ills could be repaired in 2/3 years was ridiculous and especially as the environment has changed with:

Burgeoning traffic congestion (as central government daren't increase fuel duty, and local government are scared of having proper bus priority as there are many more voting car drivers than bus passengers)
Falling retail footfall affecting revenue
Insufficient ENCTS remuneration
Cuts to supported services so the "jam" of evening and Sunday service subsidy is removed and the whole fixed cost burden falls on the daytime services
Apathy from some local authorities who just don't care about buses (e.g. Worcestershire)

These are industry wide issues (but of course, First was in a weaker position in which to weather them) and we are seeing continued depot closures, service reductions, etc irrespective of operators. However, it does seem that history means that First attracts more attention than other firms who get a bit of a free hit and yes, in terms of Arriva, the opacity of accounts probably supports that too.
Thanks for your detailed response.Arriva and First are mainly complimentary in their provision of services but a County like Leicestershire needs Local Authority support for their County routes. Politics does come into it,whether we like it or not. Leicestershire CC have supported a number of services which link theVillages either with Leicester or Loughborough. Current CC has to make some uncomfortable decisions and these services are at risk.
Going back to First, I reckon they provide a good service in Leicester. They inherited much of Leicester Councils Bus Network and have kept it in tack, to a degree. Arriva inherited Midland Fox’s Network and have kept a number of their routes in tact. Arriva have the more difficult task but given the circumstances, they are a reasonable operator.
What is coming out of this discussion is that there are wide variations with both First and Arriva throughout the Country. There are plenty of examples of good practice but also of say less than average performance with both operators.
It will be interesting to note whether these wide variations are down to just economic issues, bad local management or lack of interest from Local Authorities. Of course, it may a combination of all three!
 

Beemax

Member
Joined
10 Dec 2018
Messages
141
Comparing First Hampshire with the adjacent Go Ahead or Stagecoach operations - well, they're all pretty decent

Yes but ...if you compare the market share of First in Southampton compared with when they took over Southampton Corporation Transport 20 years ago, it really is a tale of woe with First having abandoned the whole of the north of the city, retreating to a few east-west cross routes, and even giving up the school work. The First Southampton fleet is relatively new (mostly 3-6 year old Streetlites and 9 year old B7s) but it needs to be, due to the forthcoming Low Emission Zone. You compare First's diminishing market share with the competing Go Ahead subsidiaries who introduced no less than 52 brand new double deckers into the city in 2018, then the comparison becomes painful. Stagecoach have never had a large presence within the city itself, but I wouldn't be surprised if they would take an interest in the First operations there, if they were sold at the right price
 

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