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First Group: General Discussion

TheGrandWazoo

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Yes but ...if you compare the market share of First in Southampton compared with when they took over Southampton Corporation Transport 20 years ago, it really is a tale of woe with First having abandoned the whole of the north of the city, retreating to a few east-west cross routes, and even giving up the school work. The First Southampton fleet is relatively new (mostly 3-6 year old Streetlites and 9 year old B7s) but it needs to be, due to the forthcoming Low Emission Zone. You compare First's diminishing market share with the competing Go Ahead subsidiaries who introduced no less than 52 brand new double deckers into the city in 2018, then the comparison becomes painful. Stagecoach have never had a large presence within the city itself, but I wouldn't be surprised if they would take an interest in the First operations there, if they were sold at the right price

Indeed and you can again point to the sins of the past (and arguably some more recently in the Brock College contract). However, BlueStar have got the University work and that has skewed things especially in relation to the north of the city - running services underpinned by the University and effectively being able to take non students at a marginal cost. Just meant that First could not compete.

I do take your point on the investment into the city in 2018, but put things into some context. Of those 52, 32 of them are for that self same University work; I may be wrong but isn't their a requirement to meet the age stipulations for the contract? That's no different from First doing the same to meet similar requirements in Fareham for Eclipse or in Portsmouth for the Star routes. Also, this is one year is isolation - pick 2013 or 2014 and the picture is reversed with major investment from First yet modest investment from Go Ahead. Moreover, I did state across Hampshire, not just Southampton. It is fair to say that both FHD and GSC are very modern fleets and are generally well presented as indeed is Stagecoach when you look across Hampshire in totality.

I certainly wouldn't absolve First of blame in Southampton - arguably they should have obtained the Unilink work in the first place, and they have made mistakes in not investing, or other pipedreams like bendies etc.

An interesting comparison though with Go Ahead in the East where a resurgent First have systematically displaced Anglian Bus and cuts are continuing with Konectbus.
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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What is coming out of this discussion is that there are wide variations with both First and Arriva throughout the Country. There are plenty of examples of good practice but also of say less than average performance with both operators.
It will be interesting to note whether these wide variations are down to just economic issues, bad local management or lack of interest from Local Authorities. Of course, it may a combination of all three!

Again, it's very fair to make those comments. My local firm was once Stagecoach Midlands (Northants) and there has definitely been a decline there but Stagecoach West (who I get to experience occasionally) is an excellent company. Likewise, I see First in Weston and Wells and the good stuff going on there, but head a little south and it's Buses of Somerset slowly decaying. Even within the same business, you can see frankly baffling inconsistency - take Arriva Midlands who seem decent around Leicester but the old MRN business is looking quite moribund (even selling off the Burton ops).

I agree you have a mix of macro/micro economic issues but as I made note in another post recently, it was evident of the difference between Stagecoach in Barnsley and First in Doncaster. That is probably more to do with management than geography. However, local authority support is also important and I don't think it's a shock to see that the best councils tend to have better bus operators!

A little postscript from my local First opco - West of England. It had a loss in 2017 of £7.7m - it posted a profit of £0.8m in 2018 and that was after one offs for Ticketer and restructuring of £3.2m.

PPS in the East, Essex had an Op Loss of £2.9m but after one offs (Ticketer and closing Clacton) of £3.1m whilst FEC went from a £0.2m profit to a £1.7m profit.
 
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Robertj21a

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I think there are various reasons why First get a bad press on here (and elsewhere), possibly more than is really justified.

Initially, it was probably from the era of Moir Lockhead and his approach to bus operation in the UK, seemingly very different to Brian Souter (and we all know who was the more astute businessman). He appeared out of his depth at the time, and only more so now, with hindsight.
Then, of course, you had the financial problems following the purchases across the pond. The realisation of the massive debt, and crash in the share price, gave onlookers an opportunity to look at the obvious pains of a FTSE company that was in a massive nose dive. It seemed quite likely that it might never recover, and the vultures circled (and still do).
Also, there were the Northampton's and North Devon's of this world where it just seemed, to even the most casual of onlookers, that there were a number of First operations with little direction (or proper management ?)
On balance, it's not surprising that First have had a lot of 'stick' - and what is more, we are now many years down the road post-Lockhead and matters are still not as good as they should be.
Perhaps, on balance, they still deserve more stick than the others ?? :rolleyes:
 

Volvodart

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A little postscript from my local First opco - West of England. It had a loss in 2017 of £7.7m - it posted a profit of £0.8m in 2018 and that was after one offs for Ticketer and restructuring of £3.2m.
The 2018 result includes the Bristol operations. The comparative was just for Somerset and Avon.
 

farsouthwest

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What is your obsession with claiming BoS is a dead parrot?
You’ve been posting these claims for months on end.
Yet only a week or so ago you commented on the First South West accounts showing a huge turnaround into profit, then noted that that included ticketer costs and no SPS dividend?
Are you suggesting all the profit is in Cornwall??? Can you point us to this figures to show this?

I’d suggest that your assertions on BoS aren’t based on financial performance - yet as you rightly remind fellow posters these are businesses that live or die based on their profitability.

Again as you keep pointing out, Somerset is difficult bus territory.
Doesn’t is more likely follow that what First South West has done at BoS is to get the business lean and mean, got the frequencies and network down to the commercially sustainable levels, and is now turning a profit?

Yes the fleet cascades have resulted in less BoS liveried buses - but the fact is that they’ve had a big slug of newer E200s from within First, and have bought the 12 leased E200s and Streetlited plus am additional 3 E200s from Mistral
The three extras arrived painted, a couple of cascades have gone green, and in the last month 4 Streetlites have painted - three in the new park and Ride livery, one in a refreshed version of the fleet greens.
The first two of the six Solars are away for branding into a 21 livery and a retrim.
I see your prediction is negative on the Park and Ride in 2019 too - an odd prediction if you follow the info coming out of Taunton Dean and Somerset Councils and the investment made in rebranding and marketing by BoS as they take commercial control of the. Service

[QUOTE="TheGrandWazoo, post: Likewise, I see First in Weston and Wells and the good stuff going on there, but head a little south and it's Buses of Somerset slowly decaying[/QUOTE]
 

Surreyman

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Out of all of the major bus companies, First tends to get the least favourable press amongst enthusiasts and the Bus media. Go to Leicester, where First are the key City operator and initial thoughts are of a well run service. We’re upto Page 288 of First Bus , it’s still here, yet every result of their operations is under the microscope. Arriva, Stagecoach and go ahead rarely get this sort of 200+ page analysis. Is it because the general feeling is that First is a basket case, or maybe it is easier to analyse their operations in depth because their financial information is available in greater detail than say the other bus companies?This is not a criticism by the way, but would appreciate posters comments.

Pretty much agree with what other posters have said, particularly GrandWazoos piece.
I would confess to detesting First Bus, I follow this thread mainly hoping to read negative info about UK Bus. (Cut backs, Sell offs, poor financial results etc etc) Anything which reduces First UK Buses footprint basically. Over time I have not been disappointed!
I am perfectly capable of separating my personal (Enthusiast)"perceptions" from the Rational (financial & Operating) facts.
Certainly the Livery & Branding play a major part in my prejudices (And any company that has bought as many Streetlites as First should be charged with crimes against good taste and good design)!
Trying to bring a little 'Balance' in to the equation, I have no dislikes or strong feelings about Firsts Rail operations or North American operations.
On a more pragmatic note, First Group are very constrained by their Debt & Pension burdens, indeed it can be argued that they act as a 'Poison Pill' deterring other companies from buying them.
Sure these issuses can like a can, be 'kicked down the road' - defferred/rolled over.
I still hope to wake up one day and hear that they (Group and/or UK Bus) have been sold and either re-branded or each Op' Co auctioned off.
 

Cesarcollie

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Again, it's very fair to make those comments. My local firm was once Stagecoach Midlands (Northants) and there has definitely been a decline there but Stagecoach West (who I get to experience occasionally) is an excellent company. Likewise, I see First in Weston and Wells and the good stuff going on there, but head a little south and it's Buses of Somerset slowly decaying. Even within the same business, you can see frankly baffling inconsistency - take Arriva Midlands who seem decent around Leicester but the old MRN business is looking quite moribund (even selling off the Burton ops).

I agree you have a mix of macro/micro economic issues but as I made note in another post recently, it was evident of the difference between Stagecoach in Barnsley and First in Doncaster. That is probably more to do with management than geography. However, local authority support is also important and I don't think it's a shock to see that the best councils tend to have better bus operators!

A little postscript from my local First opco - West of England. It had a loss in 2017 of £7.7m - it posted a profit of £0.8m in 2018 and that was after one offs for Ticketer and restructuring of £3.2m.

PPS in the East, Essex had an Op Loss of £2.9m but after one offs (Ticketer and closing Clacton) of £3.1m whilst FEC went from a £0.2m profit to a £1.7m profit.


Those figures for Essex don’t appear to include the Clacton closure, which was after the year end. They do include a fairly generic ‘group’ restructuring cost which seems to appear in all OpCo accounts. The groupfigure may of course include a provision for depot closures, like Clacton, that was no doubt known about even if not yet implemented at the year end. Whatever the truth, still some way to go to an acceptable level of profitability for a big (£50m +) business......
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Those figures for Essex don’t appear to include the Clacton closure, which was after the year end. They do include a fairly generic ‘group’ restructuring cost which seems to appear in all OpCo accounts. The groupfigure may of course include a provision for depot closures, like Clacton, that was no doubt known about even if not yet implemented at the year end. Whatever the truth, still some way to go to an acceptable level of profitability for a big (£50m +) business......

Page 3 (Business Review, para 2) states that it does include costs associated with the planned closure of Clacton depot as well as Ticketer and the group restructuring. That may include an accrual for the closure in this year and possibly a balancing figure in 2018/9?
 

Cesarcollie

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Page 3 (Business Review, para 2) states that it does include costs associated with the planned closure of Clacton depot as well as Ticketer and the group restructuring. That may include an accrual for the closure in this year and possibly a balancing figure in 2018/9?

Ooh - sorry TGW - didn’t spot that reference on page 3!
 

Typhoon

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2. Arriva don't seem great, but they seem to fly under the radar, partly because many of their buses are either "hidden" in London (where they aren't in corporate Arriva livery and any fare/route/frequency changes are decided by TfL) …
Too true. When Arriva took over routes in south east London, the service seemed to deteriorate (verbal and blog reports of late running, buses breaking down, services not running due to snow - Kent CC hadn't gritted). The blame was placed on TfL for taking the routes from Bexleyheath Garage to Dartford Garage (as though it was a logistics operation) when the reason was that Arriva had won the contracts from Go Ahead (and also Stagecoach), presumably solely because of cost.
Incidentally if there is any company that runs its routes fairly anonymously, particularly in London, it is Go Ahead!
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Ooh - sorry TGW - didn’t spot that reference on page 3!
No worries ;) I missed a £4m variance on West of England :oops:

What is your obsession with claiming BoS is a dead parrot?
You’ve been posting these claims for months on end.
Yet only a week or so ago you commented on the First South West accounts showing a huge turnaround into profit, then noted that that included ticketer costs and no SPS dividend?
Are you suggesting all the profit is in Cornwall??? Can you point us to this figures to show this?

I’d suggest that your assertions on BoS aren’t based on financial performance - yet as you rightly remind fellow posters these are businesses that live or die based on their profitability.

Again as you keep pointing out, Somerset is difficult bus territory.
Doesn’t is more likely follow that what First South West has done at BoS is to get the business lean and mean, got the frequencies and network down to the commercially sustainable levels, and is now turning a profit?

Yes the fleet cascades have resulted in less BoS liveried buses - but the fact is that they’ve had a big slug of newer E200s from within First, and have bought the 12 leased E200s and Streetlited plus am additional 3 E200s from Mistral
The three extras arrived painted, a couple of cascades have gone green, and in the last month 4 Streetlites have painted - three in the new park and Ride livery, one in a refreshed version of the fleet greens.
The first two of the six Solars are away for branding into a 21 livery and a retrim.
I see your prediction is negative on the Park and Ride in 2019 too - an odd prediction if you follow the info coming out of Taunton Dean and Somerset Councils and the investment made in rebranding and marketing by BoS as they take commercial control of the. Service

[QUOTE="TheGrandWazoo, post: Likewise, I see First in Weston and Wells and the good stuff going on there, but head a little south and it's Buses of Somerset slowly decaying
[/QUOTE]

First of all, I speak purely as I find, and try to be fair and balanced.

You mention my review of the South West (another thread) and I did cover off the fact that they had some newer e200s, as well as clearing out some of the older fleet. Fleet replacement is taking place and it is a balance to achieve that in straitened times. I really do appreciate that as they have upgraded the fleet, and sought to source younger and more fuel efficient vehicles.

I have consistently acknowledged that it's difficult bus territory (even in hallowed NBC days); that is reflected in the age profile of the fleet and getting the balance right on service provision. Given the travails of the high street and the challenges that Somerset CC have, it is not surprising that there have been several rounds of service trimming to make them sustainable; it isn't palatable to see cuts but then again, I accept it is necessary. You rightly point to the opacity of the FSW accounts in being able to ascertain where the money is or isn't being made. However, given the investment being made into Cornwall (that will demand a consequent return) and a supportive local authority, it would seem odd that it wasn't making the lions' share.

However, my point is that having been proactive in marketing and fleet presentation during 2014/5 and other initiatives, this has dropped off significantly in the last few years. My experience, and it is experience, in recent visits has been disappointing in terms of fleet presentation and marketing. Internal promotion has been very poor, especially in comparison with FWoE and Kernow. Repaints had near enough ceased (save for a pair of red Solos in Yeovil) and whilst I appreciate that repainting vehicles that are due for disposal would be ridiculous, some 62 plates entered the fleet nearly two years ago and, last I saw a few months ago, were still in urban. The website network map dates from Sep 2016 - it doesn't have Yeovil routes other than the 54/77 just as one example.

If you're telling me that they are making strides on that, and that a bright future beckons, then I applaud that. A dedicated livery for the 21 is a good move, as is refurbing of the Solars which are looking hard worked internally. Similarly, if the moves to secure the Taunton P&R succeed via a one off "pump prime/kickstart" payment to enable it to operate commercially, then again I'll be first in line to congratulate. I try to be fair, balanced and honest in my observations, and I do have immense respect for AC, MMH and the rest of FSW team in Kernow and Somerset. If the future is brighter, and they are developing Somerset more, then I will be more than pleased though it doesn't change my actual experiences of BoS over the last couple of years.
 
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buslad1988

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Very positive news regarding First Eastern Counties improved operating profit from £0.2 million to £1.7 million.

The business review highlights the turnover increase by 6.4% mainly driven by the Ipswich Park & Ride service and extention of the Charcoal Line in Norwich to Bungay.

Would be nice if the core Ipswich allocation could receive some newer cascaded stock now. They’ve had the ‘RAF blue’ livery for 5+ years which is looking extremely faded/worn on many buses and the majority of the Volvo/ALX400’s will be 16 years old this year. A return to using the Eastern Counties name and the cream/red/orange livery would work well in the latest First style. Would certainly refresh things!
 

farsouthwest

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It’s all very well claiming to be fair and balanced but the reality is that you use some key assumptions with little factual basis to set your observations into a context you portray.
If I look at your posts regarding BoS over the last half year or so, on a number of occasions you specifically refer to BoS as ‘loss making’ or a ‘problem child’ alluding to its financial position.
I’ve seen no evidence to support this. We’ve now seen a set of half year results that suggest that your ‘loss making’ context was without any real foundation.
As a seasoned busman (as I believe you are too) I’d suggest that the BoS brand was about dealing with the competition ratger than marketing for organic growth. There never were any internal branded coves etc. Neither was there really any route orientated branding.
From my experience BoS was about a local brand to challenge a local competitor, but the actions were around competitive frequency increases - which were always going to be wound back post competition, price discounting, which was always going to be wound back post competition, and managing all that with a relatively elderly fleet.
I didn’t see BoS as being about growing the market but maximising the share in the face of competition on a number of fronts.
So I’d say that once Webberbus went (along with Quantock and Stagecoach) and indeed when it became clear no one else was seeking to step into their shoes, a completely different strategy was needed.
Now here’s the busmans nous and nothing more substantial or proven talking - where would I go next.
I know I’ve got frequency reductions to make including some of my strongest commercial routes, I know I’ve got to get some serious price discounts reversed. I know I’ve got to get my costs going forward screwed down - there’s no excuse for short term competitive marginal running any more.
I’d be considering if the branding was even appropriate going forward, at best waiting to see where the business settled before heavily promoting it.
The significant (far more than you allude to) investment in newish buses bought from Mistral and cascades from the group shows a longer term plan being implemented.
The financial results seem to show they’ve concentrated on the underlying challenges and got there.
I’d suggest that there are few bus businesses where the senior management would allow you to spend significant cash sums on branding before you’re able to demonstrate that the business has a viable future.
The fact they’ve now started heavy marketing and branding activity seems to show the logical stages of that approach.
So as to where they are now perhaps your recent observations aren’t really recent enough.
3/4 of the park and Ride fleet in the new brand, excellent livery application, internal has full vinyls, excellent printed leaflet for it, dedicated url and webpage. A promise of big roadside marketing actions in the new year.
I would add that throughout every stage they’ve continued to produce what I’d say is the best printed timetable information booklet I’ve seen anywhere in the U.K.
It’s a fact that the Solars are away for refurb and that 7 vehicles are gaining a 21 livery. It’s a fact that they’ve got a refreshed livery agreed on another Streetlite.
It’s a fact that they’ve got ticketedr and contactless and are currently heavily promoting m ticket products including at roadside.
Didn’t I hear somewhere that FSW has the highest rate of conversion from cash to cashless - another marketing activity they’ve really been working on for the last year?
So my take based on the accounts available and more recent experience, just suggests something at odds with your pessimism.
Thinking in accounts terms I’d guess that the next financial year (April I think at First) is the test of where they are and where they’re going. Not in terms of the results, but in terms of what marketing and promotional spend they’re committing in the new year’s budget?
You can pretty much track their strategy in budget years.
 

paulprentice

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Very positive news regarding First Eastern Counties improved operating profit from £0.2 million to £1.7 million.

The business review highlights the turnover increase by 6.4% mainly driven by the Ipswich Park & Ride service and extention of the Charcoal Line in Norwich to Bungay.

Would be nice if the core Ipswich allocation could receive some newer cascaded stock now. They’ve had the ‘RAF blue’ livery for 5+ years which is looking extremely faded/worn on many buses and the majority of the Volvo/ALX400’s will be 16 years old this year. A return to using the Eastern Counties name and the cream/red/orange livery would work well in the latest First style. Would certainly refresh things!

Agreed. They’re making more money, just, but they must invest, particularly on routes like the 66 which has lost much of its ‘Superoute’ shine (and while it always used to get new buses once every few years, does need a decent fleet update). I totally agree with you regarding a reworked red, cream and orange livery, which if properly relaunched highlighting a suite of recent-ish improvements (contactless ticketing, WiFi etc) would really help the local identity.

The ‘RAF’ blue and bland ‘IPSWICH’ fleetname may have smartened up the buses but it is just so...pointless. The buses blend into their environment too much unlike Ipswich Buses, a company that makes a lot more effort to stand out!
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Strong words indeed FarWest - let's look at these in detail

If I look at your posts regarding BoS over the last half year or so, on a number of occasions you specifically refer to BoS as ‘loss making’ or a ‘problem child’ alluding to its financial position.

I specifically refer to BoS as a problem child? Not so. I have used that phrase twice and in relation to Stagecoach Darlington and First Manchester. I have not specifically referred to BoS

Nor have I stated that specifically, overtly or by implication, that BoS is losing money, as far as I can see - I've searched my previous posts and can see no reference to that. In fact, it is a strange thing as I know that you cannot ascertain such information but please, highlight where I have said that specifically.

What I did say was in March 2018 was:

"They have some real challenges and things that many gricers and anoraks just don't see or always appreciate. They are here to make a profit and that is not easy in places like South and Central Somerset. Buses of Somerset arrived as a bold attempt to lay the ghosts of the previous First image. That they also had Webberbus and their cockeyed competitive strategy to encounter was a struggle. When that was sorted, we all knew that the previous unsustainable level of services and fares could not be maintained. We also have to accept that towns like Yeovil are suffering in terms of high street footfall, and Taunton has terrible congestion. I had hopes for the BoS operation and the commitment that they would do things properly - not merely clagging some vinyls on a bus stop. Good quality timetable booklets and a refurb of Taunton bus station seemed to be a start, and perhaps they've been hit by the financial headwinds etc."

I also said that

"They won the war against Webberbus yet then taking the business on seems to have stalled. Is it that they are running to stand still financially? Are they thinly spread so that they haven't got the headroom to manage the Kernow developments, SPS, the day to day challenges of BoS and still look to develop things?"

That isn't a case of saying that they're losing money. Not even an implication. It reflects not only the aftermath of some unfortunate but ultimately necessary cuts. Within that there are some other facts:

  • The reduction of some interurban services from hourly to every 90 mins
  • The reduction of Yeovil and Taunton locals
  • The reduction of the Yeovil to Sherborne corridor from every 30 mins to every hour (or every two hours on Saturday)

It clearly states that BoS (like many a First opco and indeed most other operators) are having to fight some fairly fundamental and almost intractable issues outside of their own control or making. That those reductions have taken place is, of course, regrettable but ultimately reflects the demand and the economics of those services, I would suggest. Were it not, then it would be a strange course of action?

There is the crystal clear recognition that the following the war, BoS then had to win the peace. I seem to recall some comments, might be Alex Carter or Marc Morgan-Huws - it was five years ago so forgive me - who said that they were looking to do things properly and not slap casually slap on some vinyls which is what has happened in recent times. Instead, I experienced six buses in a row with no promotional material internally at all. My disappointment is perhaps they do produce (and have since the start) an excellent timetable booklet and refurbished the bus station in Taunton - expenditure that perhaps was surprising given the competitive environment at that time.

I have immense respect for the management team at FSW. In fact, in response to some ill judged comments in Oct 2016 from a poster, I said "However, look at the FSW achievements and whether they've been driving up and down their empire, it really doesn't matter. They've taken an essentially broken business, removed the gangrenous limb at Devon (and protected those driver's conditions). They've managed to stabilise the Cornish and Somerset operations, and managed to remove their two main competitors. They've also now secured the investment into those two fleets, albeit with cascades into Somerset but updated nonetheless. So if Alex Carter has done all of that yet hasn't driven the 29, I can forgive him."

Now, you're telling us that they are about to kick on with
A promise of big roadside marketing actions in the new year
they’ve now started heavy marketing and branding activity

You know what? That's great news. I look forward to seeing that and, if the changes are half as impressive as Kernow, then I will gladly acknowledge my pessimism has been misplaced and yes, perhaps a comment about the business drifting aimlessly was too strong. There is a finite amount one management team can achieve and if they're now really focussing on Somerset, then that is brilliant.

I still think they have their work cut out in getting a commercial P&R in a provincial town but I certainly hope they can achieve it and fashion a really good successful business in an operating territory that is challenging and with a local authority that has, in recent history, had enough challenges of its own. I wish Alex Carter, MMH, and the rest of the FSW team all the best and nothing would cheer me more than being wrong and seeing more people on more buses in Somerset - (exits pursued by a bear).
 

farsouthwest

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Semantics

I’m not searching all your posts...
1 June 2018
whilst Buses of Somerset is a very sickly child
31 July 2018
It’s very difficult to find much positive news on the regular BoS operations. I don’t generally like to criticise operators as it is a tough job but a two hourly headway on that corridor suggests an acceptance of terminal decline.
7 Sep 2018
somewhere like Buses of Somerset is unlikely ever to make any real money.


There’s no doubting that BoS has been coasting and I’ve gien my conclusion on why I think that I’d the case in some logical detail.

But to declare it as in terminal decline is what I was picking up on.

To me there’s a strategy there after the bruising battle with the competition. Is not a game though is it. It’s a hard business environment and I’d suggest again that the niceties have taken a back seat while they’ve worked to put the business on a stable footing.

I’m sure they’d have liked to have spent the money on painting and other branding and marketing. The reality is that in any of the bus groups, it’s not their gift - budgets are hard fought.

That they’ve produced the financial turnaround in FSW they have is probably nothing anyone would ever have predicted.

So I’ll look positively on the current state of the business - not just that it’s still here, but that is profitable - and with a positive view I’ll look forward to it moving forward.

If others want to find negatives then that’s fine.
 

Blackpudding

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The website network map dates from Sep 2016 - it doesn't have Yeovil routes other than the 54/77 just as one example.

I have to say that looking at the maps on the website tonight, the Yeovil routes are included in the Somerset wide map and Yeovil has it's own town map although a minor criticism would be that it doesn't show the final destination of the 40 at the extremity of that map unlike other similar services (it does show that on the Network wide map). I don't know how up to date they are. Is it me or you, TGW, that has missed something?
 

ChrisPJ

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It’s all very well claiming to be fair and balanced but the reality is that you use some key assumptions with little factual basis to set your observations into a context you portray.
If I look at your posts regarding BoS over the last half year or so, on a number of occasions you specifically refer to BoS as ‘loss making’ or a ‘problem child’ alluding to its financial position.
I’ve seen no evidence to support this. We’ve now seen a set of half year results that suggest that your ‘loss making’ context was without any real foundation.
As a seasoned busman (as I believe you are too) I’d suggest that the BoS brand was about dealing with the competition ratger than marketing for organic growth. There never were any internal branded coves etc. Neither was there really any route orientated branding.
From my experience BoS was about a local brand to challenge a local competitor, but the actions were around competitive frequency increases - which were always going to be wound back post competition, price discounting, which was always going to be wound back post competition, and managing all that with a relatively elderly fleet.
I didn’t see BoS as being about growing the market but maximising the share in the face of competition on a number of fronts.
So I’d say that once Webberbus went (along with Quantock and Stagecoach) and indeed when it became clear no one else was seeking to step into their shoes, a completely different strategy was needed.
Now here’s the busmans nous and nothing more substantial or proven talking - where would I go next.
I know I’ve got frequency reductions to make including some of my strongest commercial routes, I know I’ve got to get some serious price discounts reversed. I know I’ve got to get my costs going forward screwed down - there’s no excuse for short term competitive marginal running any more.
I’d be considering if the branding was even appropriate going forward, at best waiting to see where the business settled before heavily promoting it.
The significant (far more than you allude to) investment in newish buses bought from Mistral and cascades from the group shows a longer term plan being implemented.
The financial results seem to show they’ve concentrated on the underlying challenges and got there.
I’d suggest that there are few bus businesses where the senior management would allow you to spend significant cash sums on branding before you’re able to demonstrate that the business has a viable future.
The fact they’ve now started heavy marketing and branding activity seems to show the logical stages of that approach.
So as to where they are now perhaps your recent observations aren’t really recent enough.
3/4 of the park and Ride fleet in the new brand, excellent livery application, internal has full vinyls, excellent printed leaflet for it, dedicated url and webpage. A promise of big roadside marketing actions in the new year.
I would add that throughout every stage they’ve continued to produce what I’d say is the best printed timetable information booklet I’ve seen anywhere in the U.K.
It’s a fact that the Solars are away for refurb and that 7 vehicles are gaining a 21 livery. It’s a fact that they’ve got a refreshed livery agreed on another Streetlite.
It’s a fact that they’ve got ticketedr and contactless and are currently heavily promoting m ticket products including at roadside.
Didn’t I hear somewhere that FSW has the highest rate of conversion from cash to cashless - another marketing activity they’ve really been working on for the last year?
So my take based on the accounts available and more recent experience, just suggests something at odds with your pessimism.
Thinking in accounts terms I’d guess that the next financial year (April I think at First) is the test of where they are and where they’re going. Not in terms of the results, but in terms of what marketing and promotional spend they’re committing in the new year’s budget?
You can pretty much track their strategy in budget years.

Cut frequencies, whack up fares. All sounds depressingly familiar. That's not growing your market or expanding your profitability, but it does create the conditions for another competitor to start nibbling away.
 

F Great Eastern

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Agreed. They’re making more money, just, but they must invest, particularly on routes like the 66 which has lost much of its ‘Superoute’ shine (and while it always used to get new buses once every few years, does need a decent fleet update). I totally agree with you regarding a reworked red, cream and orange livery, which if properly relaunched highlighting a suite of recent-ish improvements (contactless ticketing, WiFi etc) would really help the local identity.

There's only one superoute now in Ipswich and it's the Park and Ride really!

To be fair though the 66 tends to get the better Eclipses and also the newer longer length Enviros tend to turn up there a fair bit. There's also a few peak services that often are operated by Park and Ride buses or occasionally the Park and Ride spare Enviro 300 which is in fleet standard.

The ‘RAF’ blue and bland ‘IPSWICH’ fleetname may have smartened up the buses but it is just so...pointless. The buses blend into their environment too much unlike Ipswich Buses, a company that makes a lot more effort to stand out!

Actually the charcoal livery at the front is hideous once it starts to fade. Even the default First livery is better than this. Recently there's been a couple of 05 plate deckers come in from Lowestoft, and despite being more worn on the inside, put an 05 ex Lowestoft decker in fleet standard next to an 05 Ipswich liveried one and the Lowestoft one looks MUCH newer. The charcoal front really ages the vehicles.

Ipswich Buses were awful about 2 years ago, the vehicles were in a poor state and unloved, but since they've got a few newer Enviros in, the Citaros and the new deckers they've really upped their game and First were well ahead in respect of vehicles, but since then Ipswich Buses have improved and First have gone backwards the park and ride aside.

Don't get me wrong Wifi and contactless have been welcome additions on First Ipswich, but it's really in need of some new stock and for a smarter and brighter livery. Many of the vehicles have had partial repaints or panels changed on the front, so you have freshly painted charcoal on the front and faded on the sides and it looks horrific. Granted the Park and Ride vehicles are lovely though.
 

Blackpudding

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Cut frequencies, whack up fares. All sounds depressingly familiar. That's not growing your market or expanding your profitability, but it does create the conditions for another competitor to start nibbling away.

I wouldn't have thought that there was a market to grow substantially in Somerset. The service is better than I remember it in the late 70's/early 80's when you could count the daily services to such places as Wincanton (from Yeovil) on one hand and car ownership was less. What would you do?
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Semantics

I’m not searching all your posts...
1 June 2018
whilst Buses of Somerset is a very sickly child
31 July 2018
It’s very difficult to find much positive news on the regular BoS operations. I don’t generally like to criticise operators as it is a tough job but a two hourly headway on that corridor suggests an acceptance of terminal decline.
7 Sep 2018
somewhere like Buses of Somerset is unlikely ever to make any real money.


There’s no doubting that BoS has been coasting and I’ve gien my conclusion on why I think that I’d the case in some logical detail.

But to declare it as in terminal decline is what I was picking up on.

To me there’s a strategy there after the bruising battle with the competition. Is not a game though is it. It’s a hard business environment and I’d suggest again that the niceties have taken a back seat while they’ve worked to put the business on a stable footing.

I’m sure they’d have liked to have spent the money on painting and other branding and marketing. The reality is that in any of the bus groups, it’s not their gift - budgets are hard fought.

That they’ve produced the financial turnaround in FSW they have is probably nothing anyone would ever have predicted.

So I’ll look positively on the current state of the business - not just that it’s still here, but that is profitable - and with a positive view I’ll look forward to it moving forward.

If others want to find negatives then that’s fine.

That is rather selective editing. The full quote, in context was that

Rest assured that there are many local differences, with Bristol very strong whilst Buses of Somerset is a very sickly child.
That refers to the relative strengths of the businesses and operating areas - or are you suggesting that the BoS business and territory IS as strong as Bristol?

As for the quote of terminal decline, that is referring to the reduction on that corridor, in that what was a 30 minute frequency on the Sherborne to Yeovil corridor is now every two hours on a Saturday.

And yes, I do stand by the statement that it will struggle to make any real money - a reflection on a highly rural operating environment with two towns in Yeovil and Bridgwater really suffering from the decline on the high street. Something that I mention extensively in the case of Yeovil. That is the reality of the operating area, and has always been the case, whether it be the NBC, Cawlett or First, and is exacerbated by the decline in these towns AND the challenges of local authority funding with a further slew of council cuts.

Hammer me for what I said by all means but not what I haven't. Thank you, sir.
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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I have to say that looking at the maps on the website tonight, the Yeovil routes are included in the Somerset wide map and Yeovil has it's own town map although a minor criticism would be that it doesn't show the final destination of the 40 at the extremity of that map unlike other similar services (it does show that on the Network wide map). I don't know how up to date they are. Is it me or you, TGW, that has missed something?

Neither - they've been updated. Perhaps this is part of the marketing update that farwest mentioned....or is farwest better connected that we realise? ;)

When I checked the other night, the network map dated from Sep 2016 - now reads Oct 2018 "proof" and the town maps were only for Taunton and Bridgwater. The Yeovil one wasn't there. Have just downloaded and attached the old one in the route maps section with the 57/59 still showing - see attachment.

However, I'm risking becoming FBB on his Public Transport Experience - feels like I'm now nitpicking. Good to see that they have now updated the maps, and I sincerely hope that farwest's optimism is better reflected than mine.
 

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TheGrandWazoo

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I wouldn't have thought that there was a market to grow substantially in Somerset. The service is better than I remember it in the late 70's/early 80's when you could count the daily services to such places as Wincanton (from Yeovil) on one hand and car ownership was less. What would you do?

Indeed - I'd advise someone to have a wander into daytime Yeovil and see how quiet the place is - much more than I remember. Bridgwater is similarly quieter despite the HP3 project. It is not an area where fortunes are to be made, I'd suggest!

The NBC era is a little before my time but I certainly remember the Cawlett era. It was a business run skilfully with a limited amount of investment in new vehicles, judicious secondhand purchases, and vehicles looked after but run into their dotage. Not many places were still running 16 seat Transits in the mid to late 1990s!

We have seen various entrants come into mid and South Somerset in the past - Stagecoach with some tendered stuff and then buying Cooks, followed by Webberbus. With the reduction in local authority tenders, there is even less opportunity to establish a bridgehead to have a competitive tilt at BoS. However, there are probably some areas/routes that will have growth potential, and as farwest has stated, the Taunton-Bridgwater-Burnham route is one area they believe they can grow the market.

And yes, BP, there are a number of routes whose 2019 frequency is still higher than in the past, despite the various reductions in recent years.
 

Blackpudding

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However, I'm risking becoming FBB on his Public Transport Experience - feels like I'm now nitpicking.

Ha! I enjoy FBB although he is not to everyone's taste including yours, but he is passionate about his subject and no matter what other people say I believe timetables and maps are a very important part of bus travel. As FBB has shown not many companies come out well when it comes to publishing information and as he has shown some First divisions could take a lesson from Kernow/Somerest.
 

Mwanesh

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Saw a brand new 68 plate Railair Reading -Heathrow coach today on the M4 .Looked very smart in the livery .
 
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Bungle965

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Saw a brand new 68 plate Railair Reading -Heathrow coach today on the M4 .Looked very smart in the livery .
Their introduction was today.
https://www.readingchronicle.co.uk/...w-coach-service-receives-significant-upgrade/
Starting from Monday, the RailAir coaches will take guests to the airport thanks to a £2.5m investment.

The fast non-stop service features deep-cushioned leather seats, wireless charging points and free wi-fi.

All coaches are fitted with the latest Euro6 engines, which produce 95 per cent less oxides of nitrogen emissions compared to the existing RailAir fleet.

Tickets start from £20 for an early bird adult return and a family of up to four (maximum of 2 adults) can book return tickets for £40.

Visit: railair.com for more information.
Sam
 

Surreyman

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Just following on with the Financial results, year ending April 2018 (So 9+ months ago):
In Geographical sequence - North to South: -

Aberdeen - Operating Loss = £745,000 on a turnover of £25.6M (Down from a profit of £1.9m year before).
Midland Bluebird - Operating Loss = £1.1M on a turnover of £22.7M (Loss reduced, compared to a loss of £2M year before).
Scotland East - Operating profit = £639,000 on a turnover of £8.8M (Down from a profit of £809,000 year before).
Glasgow No 1 - Operating profit = £4.1M on a turnover of £88M (Profit up from £2.9M year before).
Glasgow No 2- Operating profit = £7.2M on a turnover of £43.2M (Profit up from £6.5M year before).
York - Operating Loss = £0.02M on a turnover of £16.4M (Loss reduced from £700,000 year before).
West Yorkshire - Operating profit = £11.6M on a turnover of £135.2M (Profit down from £11.7M year before)
Manchester - Operating Loss = £5.7M on a turnover of £86.1M (Loss increased from a loss of £5.1M year before)
South Yorkshire - Operating Loss = £2.2M on a turnover of £62.4M (Loss down from £4.5m year before).
Potteries - Operating profit = £10,000 on a turnover of £17.1M (Profit down from £700,000 last year).
Leicester - Operating profit = £2M on a turnover of £15.5M (Profit down from £2.2M year before).
Eastern Counties - Operating profit = £1.7M on a turnover of £37.5M (Profit up from £0.2M year before.
Essex - Operating Loss = £2.9M on a turnover of £53M (Into Loss from a profit of 0.3M year before).
Worcester - Operating profit = £0.7M on a turnover of £8.1M (Profit up from £32,000 year before).
South Wales - Operating profit = £3.4M on a turnover of £37M (Profit down from £4M year before).
West of England - Operating profit = £0.8M on a turnover of £98.7M. (Into profit from a loss of £7.7M year before)* Figures are complicated by the fact that the First Bristol operation was merged into West of England from 26/03/2017).
South West - Operating profit = £525,000 on a turnover of £34.3M (Into profit from a loss of £1.8M year before).
Hampshire & Dorset - Operating Loss = £0.1M on a turnover of £41.3M (Into Loss from a profit of £844,000 year before).
Beeline - Operating profit = £0.8M on a turnover of £15.1M (Profit down from £931,000 year before).
Aircoach (Northern Ireland element only) - Operating Loss = £32,000 on a turnover of £4.1M (Into loss from a profit of £71,000 year before).
I Don't have figures for The Republic of Ireland operation.

There are of course many varied reasons why the results are as they are, Redundancy costs, Tender awards, Pay rises etc etc.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Just following on with the Financial results, year ending April 2018 (So 9+ months ago):
In Geographical sequence - North to South: -

Aberdeen - Operating Loss = £745,000 on a turnover of £25.6M (Down from a profit of £1.9m year before).
Midland Bluebird - Operating Loss = £1.1M on a turnover of £22.7M (Loss reduced, compared to a loss of £2M year before).
Scotland East - Operating profit = £639,000 on a turnover of £8.8M (Down from a profit of £809,000 year before).
Glasgow No 1 - Operating profit = £4.1M on a turnover of £88M (Profit up from £2.9M year before).
Glasgow No 2- Operating profit = £7.2M on a turnover of £43.2M (Profit up from £6.5M year before).
York - Operating Loss = £0.02M on a turnover of £16.4M (Loss reduced from £700,000 year before).
West Yorkshire - Operating profit = £11.6M on a turnover of £135.2M (Profit down from £11.7M year before)
Manchester - Operating Loss = £5.7M on a turnover of £86.1M (Loss increased from a loss of £5.1M year before)
South Yorkshire - Operating Loss = £2.2M on a turnover of £62.4M (Loss down from £4.5m year before).
Potteries - Operating profit = £10,000 on a turnover of £17.1M (Profit down from £700,000 last year).
Leicester - Operating profit = £2M on a turnover of £15.5M (Profit down from £2.2M year before).
Eastern Counties - Operating profit = £1.7M on a turnover of £37.5M (Profit up from £0.2M year before.
Essex - Operating Loss = £2.9M on a turnover of £53M (Into Loss from a profit of 0.3M year before).
Worcester - Operating profit = £0.7M on a turnover of £8.1M (Profit up from £32,000 year before).
South Wales - Operating profit = £3.4M on a turnover of £37M (Profit down from £4M year before).
West of England - Operating profit = £0.8M on a turnover of £98.7M. (Into profit from a loss of £7.7M year before)* Figures are complicated by the fact that the First Bristol operation was merged into West of England from 26/03/2017).
South West - Operating profit = £525,000 on a turnover of £34.3M (Into profit from a loss of £1.8M year before).
Hampshire & Dorset - Operating Loss = £0.1M on a turnover of £41.3M (Into Loss from a profit of £844,000 year before).
Beeline - Operating profit = £0.8M on a turnover of £15.1M (Profit down from £931,000 year before).
Aircoach (Northern Ireland element only) - Operating Loss = £32,000 on a turnover of £4.1M (Into loss from a profit of £71,000 year before).
I Don't have figures for The Republic of Ireland operation.

There are of course many varied reasons why the results are as they are, Redundancy costs, Tender awards, Pay rises etc etc.

For the vast majority of those, there are some substantial one-offs. The redundancies as they have centralised and removed roles are a fairly constant feature and also the introduction of Ticketer - not certain if that's a capital cost associated with introduction and/or the write off of existing non-depreciated equipment. There are also some specific ones associated with some OpCos (e.g. feeding through of exit costs associated with Rotherham depot for FSY). Understand that Ticketer and the move to m-tickets is driving improved margins as it reduces the scope for fraud so the benefits should be seen going forward.

As I said before, the scale of loss at FGM is perhaps the most mystifying. Overall, and having dropped those figures into a spreadsheet, looks like a move from £13.3m profit to £22.7m profit, underpinned in the most part by improvements with West of England, South West, Eastern Counties and even South Yorkshire and Midland Bluebird (as their losses reduced). Aberdeen, Essex and Hampshire are the ones that have headed the other way!
 

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