First Group: General Discussion

[Robertj21a]

I agree with what you say.... If Andy Burnham can buy First Manchester that would be fantastic... that would be putting the bus user first & not the greedy shareholders.....

SC 43090

Was this supposed to be quite so humorous ?

 

[Mwanesh]

As First Manchester have not contributed anything substantial to group profit coffers since 2014, if fact bleed them dry & pulled down UK Bus overall figures...... I find that highly unlikely. Even more so, as those 'Greedy Shareholders' have not received any dividends from First Group since 2013 & the shareprice is still languishing only slightly above the 2013 rights issue price from 2013, they have every right to be annoyed with FGP's performance.

I have to admit, I think my opinion on Stagecoach may be a little outdated, I never used to rate them back in the day when they used bullying tactics to force smaller operators out of business via various means... and also didn't fancy the prospect of Stagecoach buying NX Groups UK bus & coach arm off the Cosmen's back in 2009. That said, I'm now a 'Greedy Shareholder' in Stagecoach, who are paying decent dividends and seem to be on course to turnaround group prospects following the exit of ECML & Sale of USA division.

I do wonder what Stagecoach plans are going forward, especially as they are now solely reliant on the fortunes UK Bus industry.​

I sold my First shares in 2009 a few weeks before they made that National Express offer.First were flying high National Express were on the ropes.10 years later fortunes have changed National Express are up and First are struggling

 

[winston270twm]

I sold my First shares in 2009 a few weeks before they made that National Express offer.First were flying high National Express were on the ropes.10 years later fortunes have changed National Express are up and First are struggling

Fair play, you must have got out very near the top then. Yes, imagine if First Group had succeeded in merging with NX & adding all their extra debt as well. NX / Dean Finch have done very well to turnaround the group and they're now in a strong position and not reliant on anyone continent for more than a third of their profits.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Fair play, you must have got out very near the top then. Yes, imagine if First Group had succeeded in merging with NX & adding all their extra debt as well. NX / Dean Finch have done very well to turnaround the group and they're now in a strong position and not reliant on anyone continent for more than a third of their profits.

Agreed - a good move by Mwanesh. I've written off my investment (it wasn't much) as well as one in Debenhams. I'm a lousy tipper!

Also, I know what you mean about NX. I'm really overdue a trip around the West Midlands but the outward appearance is very, very impressive (though Coventry seems to be the poor relation, as always - perhaps being a little harsh there though) and the figures seem to reflect it as well.

 

[SC43090]

As First Manchester have not contributed anything substantial to group profit coffers since 2014, if fact bleed them dry & pulled down UK Bus overall figures...... I find that highly unlikely. Even more so, as those 'Greedy Shareholders' have not received any dividends from First Group since 2013 & the shareprice is still languishing only slightly above the 2013 rights issue price from 2013, they have every right to be annoyed with FGP's performance.

I have to admit, I think my opinion on Stagecoach may be a little outdated, I never used to rate them back in the day when they used bullying tactics to force smaller operators out of business via various means... and also didn't fancy the prospect of Stagecoach buying NX Groups UK bus & coach arm off the Cosmen's back in 2009. That said, I'm now a 'Greedy Shareholder' in Stagecoach, who are paying decent dividends and seem to be on course to turnaround group prospects following the exit of ECML & Sale of USA division.

I do wonder what Stagecoach plans are going forward, especially as they are now solely reliant on the fortunes UK Bus industry.​

I thought Stagecoach still operated East Midland Trains

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[Bungle965]

I thought Stagecoach still operated East Midland Trains

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They do, they also have a stake in the WCL franchise as well along with Virgin.
Sam

 

[SC43090]

Was this supposed to be quite so humorous ?

NO i was not been humorous... I was been very serious

SC 43090

 

[Robertj21a]

NO i was not been humorous... I was been very serious

SC 43090

Fair enough.

I just can't see how, if you understand the circumstances, you can put 'greedy shareholders' into a discussion about First Group

 

[winston270twm]

I thought Stagecoach still operated East Midland Trains

SC 43090

What's East Midlands Trains got to with anything? ECML (East Coast Main Line)

NO i was not been humorous... I was been very serious

SC 43090

I think you should check your facts before making sweeping statements about FGP shareholders. The majority of them will be pretty hacked off with the current financial position nearly 6 years on & sitting on large paper losses.​

 

[SC43090]

What's East Midlands Trains got to with anything? ECML (East Coast Main Line)

I think you should check your facts before making sweeping statements about FGP shareholders. The majority of them will be pretty hacked off with the current financial position nearly 6 years on & sitting on large paper losses.​

Read the last line of post 8790 & you will see why i mentioned East Midlands trains

SC 43090

 

[F Great Eastern]

Aircoach (Northern Ireland element only) - Operating Loss = £32,000 on a turnover of £4.1M (Into loss from a profit of £71,000 year before).
I Don't have figures for The Republic of Ireland operation.

ROI figures are in - can be found here:
https://search.cro.ie/company/CompanySearch.aspx

Search for "Last Passive" on company name.

2.50 euro for a copy, or wait a few days till they show on some third party sites.

 

[winston270twm]

Read the last line of post 8790 & you will see why i mentioned East Midlands trains

SC 43090

Don't need to read it, I posted the reply #8790. I'm aware Stagecoach still have UK rail interests, but the majority of profits are derived from UK Buses, they're unlikely to gain any new franchises anytime soon having thrown back the ECML

 

[winston270twm]

Agreed - a good move by Mwanesh. I've written off my investment (it wasn't much) as well as one in Debenhams. I'm a lousy tipper!

Also, I know what you mean about NX. I'm really overdue a trip around the West Midlands but the outward appearance is very, very impressive (though Coventry seems to be the poor relation, as always - perhaps being a little harsh there though) and the figures seem to reflect it as well.

Cough....Carillion....cough.

A lot of NX's Birmingham routes have been priority for upgrades due to ever tighening emission requirements. Coventry has therefore ended being on the receiving end of older cascades, that said they've just had 17 new Platinum's for the Warwickshire Uni routed and all Y-reg Tridents are now gone.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Cough....Carillion....cough.

A lot of NX's Birmingham routes have been priority for upgrades due to ever tighening emission requirements. Coventry has therefore ended being on the receiving end of older cascades, that said they've just had 17 new Platinum's for the Warwickshire Uni routed and all Y-reg Tridents are now gone.

Thanks - I'd blocked that out!!

Coventry is improving and I did qualify it as saying it's a relative thing compared to the rest of the operation - NX Coventry is actually pretty decent

 

[Jordan Adam]

Cough....Carillion....cough.

A lot of NX's Birmingham routes have been priority for upgrades due to ever tighening emission requirements. Coventry has therefore ended being on the receiving end of older cascades, that said they've just had 17 new Platinum's for the Warwickshire Uni routed and all Y-reg Tridents are now gone.

Dundee is the true NX dumping ground.

 

[winston270twm]

Dundee is the true NX dumping ground.

No, it's not anymore a dumping ground than non Central Birmingham garages. It's just had 14 new E400MMC's to Platinum spec, oldest bus in the fleet is now 54 plate Gemini's.

 

[Jordan Adam]

No, it's not anymore a dumping ground than non Central Birmingham garages. It's just had 14 new E400MMC's to Platinum spec, oldest bus in the fleet is now 54 plate Gemini's.

Until very recently there was a high presence of V reg Presidents. If you ignore those new E400s they newest vehicles which are not on lease are 6 years old.

 

[Goldfish62]

I frequently read about ‘greedy shareholders’. Interesting, I was rescued from an orphanage when I was four days old by my grandparents who brought me up. My granddad wa a railwayman at Carnforth and had to work after retirement to enable me to continue in education. I worked during school holidays (one summer for Ribble hence my life long interest in buses) to help pay for my schooling. I have never been unemployed because I was told I must work for a living and pay my own way and that of my family. I spent some spare cash on some Stagecach shares which helps supplement my pension. One of those greedy shareholders!! Companies need to make profits to invest in their businesses and also it is why many pension funds invest in them. Shame First don’t know how to make money to create jobs, invest and help pensioners. Apologies for the rant - I have deleted the rest of it!

Yes, a lot of nonsense about "greedy shareholders" as usual. I wonder how many of those who go on about "greedy shareholders" are themselves indirectly shareholders through ISAs, pensions, etc?

 

[Kahuna47]

Yes, a lot of nonsense about "greedy shareholders" as usual. I wonder how many of those who go on about "greedy shareholders" are themselves indirectly shareholders through ISAs, pensions, etc?

Don't forget about all the staff who have shares through BAYE and SAYE, although it's difficult driving a bus whilst wearing a suit and a monocle

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yes, a lot of nonsense about "greedy shareholders" as usual. I wonder how many of those who go on about "greedy shareholders" are themselves indirectly shareholders through ISAs, pensions, etc?

Don't forget about all the staff who have shares through BAYE and SAYE, although it's difficult driving a bus whilst wearing a suit and a monocle

Indeed - I would suspect that SC43090 is perhaps (or should be) reflecting on things differently.

It is always easy to focus on the high profile figures - people like Ann Gloag and Brian Souter who do enjoy a nice income courtesy of their Stagecoach shareholdings.

However, the majority are generally wealth management and investment firms who are investing to fund private or stakeholder pensions (i.e. not the state pension) or ISAs etc, and indeed many of us at the coal face are shareholders courtesy of various Sharesave/Share Incentive Plans.

Perhaps SC43090 is fortunate enough to have some other form of pension provision?

 

[winston270twm]

Until very recently there was a high presence of V reg Presidents. If you ignore those new E400s they newest vehicles which are not on lease are 6 years old.

I hardly call 10 x Presidents a 'high presence' i.e. 9% of the fleet (16 x Presidents transferred at peak). There's also the 65 plate WF Streetlites. Also, if you look at the financial performance, Dundee now only make approx. 5% profit margins, less than half that of NXWM, might help explain the choice of vehicle replacements.

We're getting way off topic now.

Ian Humphreys (First Manchester MD) has sent a news feed to staff, basically informing those that don't know of the press speculation and telling them to focus on their day to day job, there's no denial though.
http://www.dartslf.com/forum/attachment.php?aid=425

 

[overthewater]

That gut sent what I think is on that attachments - ( we cant view it) on Tuesday

 

[winston270twm]

That gut sent what I think is on that attachments - ( we cant view it) on Tuesday

Register and you can....

 

[F Great Eastern]

Aircoach (Northern Ireland element only) - Operating Loss = £32,000 on a turnover of £4.1M (Into loss from a profit of £71,000 year before).
I Don't have figures for The Republic of Ireland operation.

Aircoach ROI figures have now been published in the Irish press. Turnover increased by 5.6% but profit is down by 24% according to the figures which have just been lodged.

Operating profit was €4.7m on a turnover of €26.6m (Previous year operating profit of €6.2m on a turnover of €25.2m) so a fair sized reduction in profit for the year to the end of March 2018.

The accounts show a large rise in payroll costs, going from €7.9m for 191 staff in the previous year to €8.8m for 200 staff in the current year. Overall cost of sales was up €2.5m from €17.9m to €20.4m and administrative expenses up from €1.1m to €1.5m.

 

[158756]

Possibly - I'm just trying to find a way to justify the idea to sell depots separately, given that they'd presumably have a simpler time selling in one big chunk. Selling in three parts must either be because they think that'll make a depot affordable (noting your comment about them still be relatively big depots) or because they don't think that the biggest other companies will be interested (or, in the case of Stagecoach, allowed to bid).


(there's the question of who has the money and enthusiasm to expand, of course - Arriva seem to be retrenching - there's a nice touch if Go Ahead took over and reunited the former Finglands rump with the former parent company in East Yorkshire under the same organisation)

The potential takers for individual depots will be different to those who might be interested in the whole thing, whether they'd be more numerous I'm not sure. Chiefly Stagecoach might be allowed a depot, but probably not the whole thing. As already suggested Rotala would probably be more interested in Bolton than anything else, maybe Arriva, despite their general trend, might be persuaded to take a look at Bolton as well? Transdev certainly have the money in France to buy the lot, but it would be a major change from their current UK operations, and they've already left the London franchise market.

Go Ahead or Nat Ex I wouldn't expect to want a single depot to operate in the deregulated market. But if they expect regulation to happen, maybe they would, likewise for the other big foreign operators.

It doesn't look very well structured to be carved up between 2 or 3 operators - how does Queen's Road fit, especially if it's sold alone without Bolton or Oldham? If Transdev are in on it surely they'd first and foremost want Bury and Rochdale routes, currently i think split between all 3 depots and of course without an actual depot in Bury. Would anyone end up making any money in Rochdale split between 3 ex-First depots, Rosso and First Calderdale?

 

[Volvodart]

With what is likely to happen in Manchester, buying more than one depot may be too much risk.

 

[Megafuss]

If Burnham is going down the Franchise route, Tower Transit must surely be interested in getting a depot as a base at a low cost.

They have been burnt in Cambridge with Whippet making loss after loss (now spun off), but Manchester would be a better bet.

They have the experience in delivering franchised operations and getting a depot would be a good base to build from. Although it looks like they will need to run it on a commercial basis for the next couple of years - which then makes me think it will be a bad idea given the mess they made of Whippet in a commercial environment...

 

[Goldfish62]

With what is likely to happen in Manchester, buying more than one depot may be too much risk.

Franchising isn't going to happen. That's my informed guess anyway.

 

[Volvodart]

That is not what other people are saying.

 

[Goldfish62]

That is not what other people are saying.

My opinion is from a certain amount of inside knowledge, but then maybe so is theirs. As I said it is a guess.