First Group: General Discussion

[overthewater]

Will First make an formal announcement?

 

[winston270twm]

I see a trading update has just been added for 19 February 2019.

FGP typically provide the markets with a trading update around this period, last year it was 21st Feb (2018) & 7th Feb (2017) etc.

They could always tie that in with news of the rumoured disposals....

 

[Volvodart]

They do not need to, unless something has changed from the expectation. It changed a few years ago when it was always required. As I said, it only appeared yesterday.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It’s Go Ahead Manchester! Queens Rd depot sold

 

[Volvodart]

First Manchester Queens Road bus depot

https://www.firstgroupplc.com/news-and-media/latest-news/2019/19-02-19.aspx

First Manchester Queens Road bus depot
19 Feb 2019

First Bus has today announced its intention to sell the Queens Road bus depot and operations to the Go-Ahead Group for a consideration of £11.2m.

The intended sale would include the First Manchester depot site at Queens Road and the bus fleet of around 160 vehicles. The sale is expected to complete within several weeks and employees who work for the Queens Road bus operation will transfer to the Go-Ahead Group. First Manchester will continue to operate existing local bus services from the Queens Road site until the sale is completed and customers should see no changes to their daily journeys throughout this period of transition.

Today’s news will see First Manchester continue to operate from two sites, Oldham and Bolton. These depots and the services that operate from them are unaffected by today’s announcement.

First Manchester continues to advocate the benefits of a partnership approach in Greater Manchester to deliver faster improvements for customers. This follows the recent launch of the OneBus partnership, which proposes improvements including; 450 new low emission buses, simplified tickets, a unified brand identity, improved integration with other transport services, joint bus network reviews and improved customer information.

Speaking about today’s announcement, Giles Fearnley, Managing Director of First Bus, said: "I’d like to thank our employees for their continued hard work to deliver the best experience possible for our customers in Greater Manchester. Today’s announcement does not reflect on the effort, commitment or individual performance of our Queens Road employees and we will be supporting them fully as they transfer to their new employer. Over the years we have enjoyed a constructive relationship with both Go-Ahead and Transport for Greater Manchester and look forward to working closely with them to ensure this transfer goes ahead as smoothly as possible with minimal impact for our customers.

"We continue to support the OneBus partnership in the city region and believe that a positive partnership between the Mayor; Local Authorities; businesses; the community and OneBus, can help tackle the increasing impact of congestion and deliver a package of improvements which puts customers first and offers good value for both passengers and public investment."

For more information, visit www.firstmanchester.com.

ENDS

https://www.go-ahead.com/en/media/n...th-firstgroup-to-purchase-manchester-bus.html

19 Feb 2019
Go-Ahead agrees terms with FirstGroup to purchase Manchester bus depot
The Go-Ahead Group is pleased to announce it has agreed terms with FirstGroup to purchase the Queen’s Road bus depot. The sale, which is due to complete in the next few months, will take Go-Ahead into Manchester, Britain’s second-largest urban area, for the first time.

Go-Ahead is looking forward to working in partnership with Transport for Greater Manchester (TfGM) to deliver operational excellence, innovation and a focus on customer service.

Go-Ahead is the largest bus operator in London and runs seven other regional bus companies in Britain, plus overseas bus services in Ireland and Singapore. Go-Ahead’s regional bus services have a customer satisfaction score of 91%, the highest in the industry, according to an independent study by Transport Focus.

While the initial focus will be on ensuring a smooth transition to maintain services from day one of the new operation, Go-Ahead will invest in the people, vehicles and systems to improve the local bus services to customers. Buses from Queen’s Road predominantly serve destinations in the centre, North Manchester and Salford.

David Brown, Chief Executive of Go-Ahead, said: “We look forward to contributing to Manchester’s community and transport. Buses are an essential public service that help passengers get to work, access education and healthcare, for leisure and visits to relatives. We aim to deliver a comfortable, reliable service while investing to improve air quality.

“As a business that prides itself on looking after our colleagues, we hope to reinvigorate the Queen’s Road depot. We also look forward to engaging in open conversations with TfGM, stakeholders and customers in the Manchester area to better understand how we can create a sustainable and thriving service.”

The Queen’s Road depot will operate as Go North West, while a local brand will be chosen in collaboration with customers and stakeholders.

Go-Ahead has agreed £11.17m in cash for the acquisition which includes 163 buses.

 

[jonesy3001]

so are first sticking with oldham and bolton now or have they got potential buyers as well?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

so are first sticking with oldham and bolton now or have they got potential buyers as well?

They can’t say until any potential deal is done.

 

[Anthony ross]

I’m quite surprised to see go ahead purchase queens road wonder if this will be a stand alone operation or if it would be run by another one of there group companies

 

[Robertj21a]

so are first sticking with oldham and bolton now or have they got potential buyers as well?

All 3 are supposed to be going, sooner or later.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I’m quite surprised to see go ahead purchase queens road wonder if this will be a stand alone operation or if it would be run by another one of there group companies

It's a 163 bus operation so probably stand alone but using shared back office functions

 

[Alexbus12]

What will be interesting is the sale of Bolton if it happens. It may be more attractive with it having First Manchesters Paint Shop and Training School located at Bolton

 

[Kahuna47]

What will be interesting is the sale of Bolton if it happens. It may be more attractive with it having First Manchesters Paint Shop and Training School located at Bolton

Don't forget the the great big money-spinner that's Vantage too
K

 

[Alexbus12]

Don't forget the the great big money-spinner that's Vantage too
K

Oh Aye!

 

[Robertj21a]

Presumably, GoAhead take on the existing First fleet (unless there's an agreement for First to swap over a few vehicles) ?

Anyone know the basic fleet at present ?
.

 

[goldisgood]

Presumably, GoAhead take on the existing First fleet (unless there's an agreement for First to swap over a few vehicles) ?

Anyone know the basic fleet at present ?
.

I think it's all B9TLs and B7RLEs, with a few B5LHs and the Metroshuttle buses.

A small issue I can see with this is that the 163 and 17 have the large common section along Rochdale Road, but the 163 is operated from Bolton and the 17 from Queens Road, whatever this will mean for the people who use buses here.

 

[jonesy3001]

E400s unless they went to oldham and bolton

 

[bussnapperwm]

What will be interesting is the sale of Bolton if it happens. It may be more attractive with it having First Manchesters Paint Shop and Training School located at Bolton

Wouldn't be surprised if that goes to Rotala personally

 

[overthewater]

Is it possible first and transdev have gone to mmc/cc/mc what ever they are called to see if such a deal can done?

 

[Kahuna47]

E400s went to Bolton and Oldham in exchange for B7 and B9s. I think the newest vehicles are the 11 plate B5s at Queens. I know over at GNE they have a reputation for refurbs and they may just do that for the most part.

The Rochdale Road corridor will just have another competitor on it, like Stagecoach already is. I wouldn't be suprised if the 163 goes over to Queens too tbh. Although it makes a lot of money, its a route out on a limb and the increased competition may knock it.

K

 

[Kahuna47]

Wouldn't be surprised if that goes to Rotala personally

I hope not, haven't heard good things about them. Although they have publicly said they have the funds...
K

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

FGP typically provide the markets with a trading update around this period, last year it was 21st Feb (2018) & 7th Feb (2017) etc.

They could always tie that in with news of the rumoured disposals....

And indeed they did Winston. They have also provided the trading update. In respect of UK Bus, turnover is up 1.3% against a reduction of 1.9% in patronage, caused by the ongoing decline in high street footfall and via service reductions. The other areas look broadly positive with the exception of Greyhound though looks like they are cashing in on the property portfolio there!

An interesting little note though which will catch Winston's attention "The £250 million 6.125% coupon bond due January 2019 was recently refinanced from cash on hand and revolving bank facilities as planned. As previously indicated this will not have a significant effect on the Group’s overall interest costs going forward as the bond had been swapped to a floating rate. The Group’s next major refinancing is the £350 million 8.75% bond due April 2021." Not being an expert in bonds (or much else, TBH), I can only guess that this gives First more flexibility (essentially using their overdraft rather than being tied into a bond)??? This might deliver a small benefit but as this was one of the cheaper bonds, I assume that's why the impact is less significant.

 

[Robertj21a]

Wouldn't be surprised if that goes to Rotala personally

Oh dear, surely not.

An operator with a seemingly well deserved poor reputation.

.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Is it possible first and transdev have gone to mmc/cc/mc what ever they are called to see if such a deal can done?

No - that's not how the CMA works

I think it's all B9TLs and B7RLEs, with a few B5LHs and the Metroshuttle buses.

It's a very middle aged fleet with a lot of 2005-2009 vintage stuff. It'll certainly need some investment though I'd not be surprised to see a chunk of new buses arrive to signify the new broom and to introduce a new identity.

 

[overthewater]

No - that's not how the CMA works.

This is what happened in 2006 with First brought Hutchinson coaches, First referred themselves to them without telling anyone.

I still think Transdev is in the running for Bolton

 

[bussnapperwm]

I hope not, haven't heard good things about them. Although they have publicly said they have the funds...
K

Plus Bolton would be quite logical for them as it would near enough tack on to their existing operations.

And there's the potential in house paint shop. Just think how quick they'd be able to new Diamondise their existing fleet...

Oh dear, surely not.

An operator with a seemingly well deserved poor reputation.

.

I know their reputation. I live in their Black Country territory and the amount of problems I've had with Diamond, it's unbelievable.

And that is without the numerous wheels falling off last year...

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

This is what happened in 2006 with First brought Hutchinson coaches, First referred themselves to them without telling anyone.

I still think Transdev is in the running for Bolton

Sorry but perhaps I misinterpreted this. You can refer yourself to the CMA. What they won't do is give you an "in principle" view of "I'm thinking of buying X - will this result in an investigation?"

 

[Kahuna47]

Something which is playing on my mind (not First related but still something to consider) is that Go Ahead have chosen the name Go North West, rather than Go Manchester or something similar. Could they be looking at expansion in the North West? Maybe one of the number of municipals there still are here...

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Plus Bolton would be quite logical for them as it would near enough tack on to their existing operations.

And there's the potential in house paint shop. Just think how quick they'd be able to new Diamondise their existing fleet...



I know their reputation. I live in their Black Country territory and the amount of problems I've had with Diamond, it's unbelievable.

And that is without the numerous wheels falling off last year...

Don't they have an in-house paintshop at Preston depot already? Despite that, you still see plenty of buses running round in the wrong colours (e.g. Preston Bus out of Tyldesley, Wessex or London Red out of Preston).

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Something which is playing on my mind (not First related but still something to consider) is that Go Ahead have chosen the name Go North West, rather than Go Manchester or something similar. Could they be looking at expansion in the North West? Maybe one of the number of municipals there still are here...

I think you're overthinking things!

They have Go East, Go South Coast, Go North East, and used to have Go West Midlands. It's pretty standard for them to use these more vague geographical terms.

 

[mic]

Presumably, GoAhead take on the existing First fleet (unless there's an agreement for First to swap over a few vehicles) ?

Anyone know the basic fleet at present ?
.

37279 to 90/97/301/3/4/67 to 82/86/89 to 95/97 to 402/4/9/11/13/14/20/21/23/24/33/36/38 to 42/44/46/48/49/52/62 to 66
39207 to 20
49101/2/6 to 12
49213/20/32
53065/
59001 to 8
60657/60/61240 all trainers
66831 to 36/44/46/53 to 59/62/64 to 69/71/72/74/75/76/80/90 to 93/96 to 98/902/8/10 to 13/15/20/22/23/28/29/31/33
69176/77/79/85/95 to 97/99/200/3 to 5
69325 to 328/69420
SM 67 FFR staff bus