Unless you live in the North East, where GNE stopped printing timetables and also cut services and the price of a week pass is extortionate compared to its competitors in the area.
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First Group: General Discussion
- Thread starter overthewater
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Unless you live in the North East, where GNE stopped printing timetables and also cut services and the price of a week pass is extortionate compared to its competitors in the area.
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First Kernow (Cornwall) is one of the good ops along with loads of new buses
goldisgood
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Go Ahead seem good to work for and they do have a pretty good fleet, but their timekeeping (at least where I am) is completely awful. One service has been at least 10 minutes late every day for the last 4 years, and on their joint services with Stagecoach they seem to normally be running late somehow.
First isn't all awful - West of England is looking better and better, as is Glasgow and Leeds with lots of investment into new and refurbished vehicles. Kernow, as said above, is seeing huge investment and the latest financial statements show that they are close to profit.
First isn't all awful - West of England is looking better and better, as is Glasgow and Leeds with lots of investment into new and refurbished vehicles. Kernow, as said above, is seeing huge investment and the latest financial statements show that they are close to profit.
Goldfish62
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Kernow are in profit, not just close to it.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Wow..... I am genuinely astonished by some of the comments on here.
I know people who work for Go Ahead (in the North East) and they speak highly about it. These are people who have worked elsewhere (mainly Arriva) as both drivers and managers and whilst Arriva wasn't bad, they're happier than they were. Certainly, they wouldn't recognise this "are known to treat their staff very poorly" line at all.
That Go South Coast attracts this level of criticism is akin to those people who rail against TrentBarton or Transdev. I mean, short of Lothian, Nottingham and Reading, where are all these fantastic operations that are so superb that, in comparison, these organisations are so poor? I've not been to Brighton recently, but I can certainly speak first hand of BlueStar, Thamesdown and Salisbury Reds. With the exception of Thamesdown (and they are sorting out what they inherited), they are excellent. Not perfect by any stretch but well presented vehicles, good drivers, investment in fleet, good marketing. Elsewhere, it's fair to say that Go North East's weekly tickets are a bit steep. They may have trimmed back recently but I'd suggest you look at how they have expanded in the last 15 years especially at the expense of Arriva who have certainly retrenched more. The other criticisms of Go North East is that they can be a bit "fur coat, no knickers" so a nice paint job and vinyls yet the internal condition might not be quite so good.
Those who highlight the inconsistency with First are spot on. First Kernow is being lifted out of the mire of continued retrenchment and a lack of investment and it's testimony to the job that the management team there have done (with Cornwall Council) to really improve things. I'm sure that they'd love to have fewer old Tridents and Solos and further new fleet but Rome as they say..... and as has been said, that operation is now in profit and much changed. Similarly, look at West of England and they are increasing patronage, improving marketing and ticketing, etc. You can point to other areas like Worcester or West Yorkshire where they are "getting things right" and that's why (sorry to repeat) why I highlighted my trips on First GM and First SY and the contrast between those operations and elsewhere in the group.
As for Rotala being much better....... than Go Ahead or Transdev? Sorry - not in my experience. In fact, I struggle to even comprehend that view. Before they closed down Wessex, this had been a very profitable operation but they allowed First in to push them out systematically. Vehicles in a mix of liveries, drivers (and I don't like to criticise drivers) who drove with a "positive attitude" and were often a mix of surly or diffident, and the condition of the fleet (even relatively modern vehicles) was shocking. I can also point to Rotala in Worcestershire - truly awful. Even modern StreetLites having to get by running limp mode (yes, I experienced it personally), missing journeys, service cuts, and then there's the presentation. I spent a short time in Kidderminster in the summer, travelling to and from there on Diamond. Both those buses were in blue (but battle scarred) but you also had fleet in full Wessex colours, Hansons with Diamond names slapped on, same with Central Buses (looking far tattier than they had been with what had been a superb operator). Even in the North West, it seems a mess, and as for Hallmark, the experience of a driver change over at Hatton Cross with the incoming driver berating the one he was taking over from in full view of the passengers is something that will live with me. Rotala better than Go Ahead or Transdev???...... they're not.
I know people who work for Go Ahead (in the North East) and they speak highly about it. These are people who have worked elsewhere (mainly Arriva) as both drivers and managers and whilst Arriva wasn't bad, they're happier than they were. Certainly, they wouldn't recognise this "are known to treat their staff very poorly" line at all.
That Go South Coast attracts this level of criticism is akin to those people who rail against TrentBarton or Transdev. I mean, short of Lothian, Nottingham and Reading, where are all these fantastic operations that are so superb that, in comparison, these organisations are so poor? I've not been to Brighton recently, but I can certainly speak first hand of BlueStar, Thamesdown and Salisbury Reds. With the exception of Thamesdown (and they are sorting out what they inherited), they are excellent. Not perfect by any stretch but well presented vehicles, good drivers, investment in fleet, good marketing. Elsewhere, it's fair to say that Go North East's weekly tickets are a bit steep. They may have trimmed back recently but I'd suggest you look at how they have expanded in the last 15 years especially at the expense of Arriva who have certainly retrenched more. The other criticisms of Go North East is that they can be a bit "fur coat, no knickers" so a nice paint job and vinyls yet the internal condition might not be quite so good.
Those who highlight the inconsistency with First are spot on. First Kernow is being lifted out of the mire of continued retrenchment and a lack of investment and it's testimony to the job that the management team there have done (with Cornwall Council) to really improve things. I'm sure that they'd love to have fewer old Tridents and Solos and further new fleet but Rome as they say..... and as has been said, that operation is now in profit and much changed. Similarly, look at West of England and they are increasing patronage, improving marketing and ticketing, etc. You can point to other areas like Worcester or West Yorkshire where they are "getting things right" and that's why (sorry to repeat) why I highlighted my trips on First GM and First SY and the contrast between those operations and elsewhere in the group.
As for Rotala being much better....... than Go Ahead or Transdev? Sorry - not in my experience. In fact, I struggle to even comprehend that view. Before they closed down Wessex, this had been a very profitable operation but they allowed First in to push them out systematically. Vehicles in a mix of liveries, drivers (and I don't like to criticise drivers) who drove with a "positive attitude" and were often a mix of surly or diffident, and the condition of the fleet (even relatively modern vehicles) was shocking. I can also point to Rotala in Worcestershire - truly awful. Even modern StreetLites having to get by running limp mode (yes, I experienced it personally), missing journeys, service cuts, and then there's the presentation. I spent a short time in Kidderminster in the summer, travelling to and from there on Diamond. Both those buses were in blue (but battle scarred) but you also had fleet in full Wessex colours, Hansons with Diamond names slapped on, same with Central Buses (looking far tattier than they had been with what had been a superb operator). Even in the North West, it seems a mess, and as for Hallmark, the experience of a driver change over at Hatton Cross with the incoming driver berating the one he was taking over from in full view of the passengers is something that will live with me. Rotala better than Go Ahead or Transdev???...... they're not.
KendalKing
Established Member
That sounds like my local Stagecoach route, in North Lancashire!
The Biggest problem with timekeeping, is many operators cut the running time, when there were plenty of buses running on a route, when the number of buses on the route(s) were cut, timekeeping became a problem.
Where i live, we use to have four buses per an hour, most of the buses ran on time, now its one bus per an hour, most of the buses are late, if they turn-up! it not unknown for buses to terminate short, or miss a trip or two out.
DragonEast
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We regularly have the opposite down here in Essex. The First buses have increased frequencies to half-hourly, even to 4-6 buses per hour; but waiting time increases to approaching, or even over an hour; regularly missing two or three buses. (Other operators have problems too, but seem to manage it much better). It's not good for those of us trying to use the bus as the alternative to the car; but much worse for those trying to get to their daily work first thing in the morning, or home after a long (disrupted) commute, or who have an appointment to get to, or children in tow. And losing the last bus . . . not unheard of. When First lose a contract service there is almost dancing in the street!
OK it can be mitigated by chasing a bus from route to route, and I've tried it myself; but I'm not sure we should really be expecting that of the elderly or disabled, the commuters or those with shopping or children in tow! It's not unusual to hear regular users say that using the bus for work they've never been on time, and this is from supporters of public transport who aren't disposed to exaggeration. Being no longer a commuter I genuinely feel sorry for them. They shouldn't have to put up with it, but thankfully they (and some decent drivers) do or I dread to think the state our bus company would be in! We seem to be paying for all these MIA buses too, with a £53m income comparable with our neighbours Stagecoach and Arriva, who though seem to have a more competitive fare structure, especially for regular users and longer journeys.
The suspicion is that the depots are overwhelmed, which the inability of the Twitter team to get a response may support.
It all may not be helped by the much-lauded "efficiencies" which seem to be encouraging many drivers under 35/40, presumably with family responsibilities, out of the industry.
It seems to be the same everywhere, but management can be "on message" as much as they like, but the subliminal message on the shop floor is the start of the slippery slope, and fear for the future of their jobs. At least that is what I hear, although I confess I have never worked in the industry; rather as support for the hated management!
OK it can be mitigated by chasing a bus from route to route, and I've tried it myself; but I'm not sure we should really be expecting that of the elderly or disabled, the commuters or those with shopping or children in tow! It's not unusual to hear regular users say that using the bus for work they've never been on time, and this is from supporters of public transport who aren't disposed to exaggeration. Being no longer a commuter I genuinely feel sorry for them. They shouldn't have to put up with it, but thankfully they (and some decent drivers) do or I dread to think the state our bus company would be in! We seem to be paying for all these MIA buses too, with a £53m income comparable with our neighbours Stagecoach and Arriva, who though seem to have a more competitive fare structure, especially for regular users and longer journeys.
The suspicion is that the depots are overwhelmed, which the inability of the Twitter team to get a response may support.
It all may not be helped by the much-lauded "efficiencies" which seem to be encouraging many drivers under 35/40, presumably with family responsibilities, out of the industry.
It seems to be the same everywhere, but management can be "on message" as much as they like, but the subliminal message on the shop floor is the start of the slippery slope, and fear for the future of their jobs. At least that is what I hear, although I confess I have never worked in the industry; rather as support for the hated management!
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Goldfish62
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In my opinion Rotala is one outfit that shouldn't be in the industry, or any industry Appalling company.
As far as I was aware, Go Ahead give a lot of autonomy to their local management so what happens in Brighton may not be replicated in a new area. Brighton & Hove and Metrobus, which are even now part of the same company, still have different formats for their publicity, to the extent that Metrobus timetable use the 24 hour clock but Brighton & Hove still uses the 12 hour clock.
Comes down to local management in my opinion. First southwest (Cornwall and Somerset) have excellent management, and it shows in the results. Turning profit in cornwall and Somerset was unthinkable 5 years ago, so a lot of credit due to those management responsible.
Staff are generally happy as well- local media (Cornwall Live) did an article recently questioning public about the local bus service and the vast majority of comments published complimented the drivers and the new clean vehicles.
cactustwirly
Established Member
I'm not a big user of buses, I don't find bus travel to be particularly pleasurable - I'd rather walk or take the train tbh
I've used Go-Ahead the most out of all the big companies, and the service wasn't brilliant, the bus was always late, was a rattly old E200 with awful seats, and the fares were overpriced!
I've used Go-Ahead the most out of all the big companies, and the service wasn't brilliant, the bus was always late, was a rattly old E200 with awful seats, and the fares were overpriced!
Robertj21a
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That's unusual, where was it ?
cactustwirly
Established Member
They could, but they won't be sold!
Being isolated isn’t the criteria for sale. First Manchester isn’t isolated!
overthewater
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Why isn't York on the list for the same reason?
* Worcester - no issues.
* Potteries - Its starting to make money and isn't Isolated
* Leicester - First does not control 100% of the company.
* Slough - it's the only one that could make sense as First has rolled back so much.
* Worcester - no issues.
* Potteries - Its starting to make money and isn't Isolated
* Leicester - First does not control 100% of the company.
* Slough - it's the only one that could make sense as First has rolled back so much.
cactustwirly
Established Member
Leicester is quite profitable, so if First sold it then they'd be shooting themselves in the foot
Potteries? - The operating profit reported for the last financial year was so small that one single extra employee would have pushed it into loss!!
Leicester - Is the biggest money spinner in FirstBus in terms of profit to turnover.
Looking at the figures (10 months old I admit) if Loss making were the main criteria for disposal, then South Yorkshire & Essex would be the 2 priorities for disposal.
overthewater
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I think the chances are more on Slough and something were not thinking off. I doubt First will come out of Essex completely, if there do Go-Ahead will be like a shot.
HOWEVER were all getting ahead of ourselves.
HOWEVER were all getting ahead of ourselves.
TheGrandWazoo
Veteran Member
Potteries did have a number of one offs associated with the closure of Newcastle depot.
Essex figures don’t look good but there’s a lot of one offs there. Can’t imagine their operating costs really went up by 10%. However, it does seem somewhat becalmed!
InspectorBloke
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It is unlikely First will dispose of Essex. A number of one off charges associated with depot closures and staff t&c changes hit last year's results.
Robertj21a
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Just a reminder that First have said that *any* operating unit is available for sale. It's not their reluctance to sell, it's the lack of buyers.
overthewater
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I did say if someone brought a bag of gold first would sale and I was slap on the hand?? I can't see Lothian saying to First taken this and get out, I for one hope First will tell Lothian to get stuffed.
F Great Eastern
Established Member
Bolton is next in line in the First Manchester sale, Oldham deal may be off at least for time being.
overthewater
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Transdev by any chance? Wonder why Oldham been put off? Surly that has to be done within 6 weeks?
DragonEast
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Just returning to my Essex speculation. Becalmed (or stuffed, as I put it) about sums it up. So I too suspect nothing will happen, yet.
The irony is that the Essex OpCo has, I suspect, two of the best local independents in the Country who could teach them a thing or two about running buses: Ensign and Stephensons of Essex, if they were interested in learning.
Arriva, already in two of our towns, Southend and Colchester, are entrenched in a home counties doughnut around north London, but don't seem too interested in finishing the job; and embroiled in a First-ish centralisation, are themselves risking their long-standing reputation for competence, it seems!
Stagecoach East too are embroiled in a sort of falling out with the new Cambridge and Peterborough Regional Mayor (who himself seems to need to embark on a steep learning curve, which might lead him anywhere), and I thought perhaps the prospect of a move into Essex could usefully hedge their bets, as Stagecoach seem to have this reputation for being able to sort anything out. (And maybe a sort of filling in the sandwich between their West Anglia and East London ops). I thought too they said something when they sold their American ops about concentrating on opportunities in British bus?
Go Ahead seem to have problems in making anything work in East Anglia, so the worry is we might move from one shambles to another, though if their mutual Manchester PR is to be believed they both have this "good relationship". And they seem to have the resources (including management?) if First don't.
In favour of Essex government, it has embraced (more than a lot of the Shires) the Government's housing agenda, and has not much native employment, so helping move people from one to the other is surely one of the best opportunities the bus industry can get? First (and I suspect Go Ahead, hence their hanging around) are aware of it, and although First practise what they preach I'm not sure their track record of making an on-going success of it is as good as it should be. (And the modern generation, moving out of London, do seem inclined to be more bus friendly than their predecessors ever were, but even their patience may be starting to run pretty thin).
I really can't see what the First OpCo has to be competitive for resources within First, so how long can it keep becalmed, and afloat? As a meal it looks indigestible though. There is no Council money tree to help. They have to make do with the begging bowl to the property industry, on which First make a decent stab; but it's how well you use it, and I'm not sure they've really got the hang of that one yet. What happens when the subsidy runs out? Certainly though the Planning Inspectorate seem to be doing their bit, insisting the local fad for new settlements (rather than bolting on to existing ones) has viable sustainable transport plans. If that's not buses, what is? I don't think we're going Maoist Chinese quite yet with everyone on bicycles, though some brains in Cambridge would like it apparently.
We've waited approaching a decade (EDIT in Essex, at least) for First to get their act together. So how long do we have to give them?
The irony is that the Essex OpCo has, I suspect, two of the best local independents in the Country who could teach them a thing or two about running buses: Ensign and Stephensons of Essex, if they were interested in learning.
Arriva, already in two of our towns, Southend and Colchester, are entrenched in a home counties doughnut around north London, but don't seem too interested in finishing the job; and embroiled in a First-ish centralisation, are themselves risking their long-standing reputation for competence, it seems!
Stagecoach East too are embroiled in a sort of falling out with the new Cambridge and Peterborough Regional Mayor (who himself seems to need to embark on a steep learning curve, which might lead him anywhere), and I thought perhaps the prospect of a move into Essex could usefully hedge their bets, as Stagecoach seem to have this reputation for being able to sort anything out. (And maybe a sort of filling in the sandwich between their West Anglia and East London ops). I thought too they said something when they sold their American ops about concentrating on opportunities in British bus?
Go Ahead seem to have problems in making anything work in East Anglia, so the worry is we might move from one shambles to another, though if their mutual Manchester PR is to be believed they both have this "good relationship". And they seem to have the resources (including management?) if First don't.
In favour of Essex government, it has embraced (more than a lot of the Shires) the Government's housing agenda, and has not much native employment, so helping move people from one to the other is surely one of the best opportunities the bus industry can get? First (and I suspect Go Ahead, hence their hanging around) are aware of it, and although First practise what they preach I'm not sure their track record of making an on-going success of it is as good as it should be. (And the modern generation, moving out of London, do seem inclined to be more bus friendly than their predecessors ever were, but even their patience may be starting to run pretty thin).
I really can't see what the First OpCo has to be competitive for resources within First, so how long can it keep becalmed, and afloat? As a meal it looks indigestible though. There is no Council money tree to help. They have to make do with the begging bowl to the property industry, on which First make a decent stab; but it's how well you use it, and I'm not sure they've really got the hang of that one yet. What happens when the subsidy runs out? Certainly though the Planning Inspectorate seem to be doing their bit, insisting the local fad for new settlements (rather than bolting on to existing ones) has viable sustainable transport plans. If that's not buses, what is? I don't think we're going Maoist Chinese quite yet with everyone on bicycles, though some brains in Cambridge would like it apparently.
We've waited approaching a decade (EDIT in Essex, at least) for First to get their act together. So how long do we have to give them?
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Just for balance, I am hoping that Lothian will erode Firsts profitability to the point where they have to pull out of West Lothian completely, may take a few of years but Lothian have deep pockets and can play the long game.
overthewater
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2012 is when the thread started so only 7 years.
That is Balance point,
KendalKing
Established Member
49921-23 which have recently been refurbished