• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

First Group: General Discussion

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
19,965
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
I mean is could First say will here an extra 10 brand new deckers because of the government investment?

I would anticipate that First have been working very closely with York City Council on both the new contract and the bid to the government, so that the base contract has a commitment to new vehicles (e.g. 21 euro VI vehicles and First will have priced this up accordingly) and then additional grants from the government allow the new vehicle order to be amended.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

Surreyman

Member
Joined
29 Jan 2012
Messages
949
In January 2018, it was announced that First York had been awarded a new contract for the Park & Ride system, with an order for 6 Merc' Artics, 18 E400MMC & 3 Metrodecker EV (Electric), which would replace 15 Merc' Artics & 11 Volvo B7RLE.
Can I assume that the new order for 21 Electric Metrodeckers is additional to and not a revised order?
 

Volvodart

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2010
Messages
2,379
In January 2018, it was announced that First York had been awarded a new contract for the Park & Ride system, with an order for 6 Merc' Artics, 18 E400MMC & 3 Metrodecker EV (Electric), which would replace 15 Merc' Artics & 11 Volvo B7RLE.
Can I assume that the new order for 21 Electric Metrodeckers is additional to and not a revised order?

That information came from July 2017. On here there was a big argument as everyone had different figures for the number of buses. The 18 MMCs were replaced with government funded EV's. There was also government funding for 6 long single decker EVs. I am not sure what happened to that. Route one quoted First as saying "First is currently working on its plans for the existing Mercedes-Benz Citaros", but some of the trade press said they were to be new artics.
 
Last edited:

KendalKing

Established Member
Joined
4 Mar 2009
Messages
1,642
Location
North Lancs
That information came from July 2017. On here there was a big argument as everyone had different figures for the number of buses. The 18 MMCs were replaced with government funded EV's. There was also government funding for 6 long single decker EVs. I am not sure what happened to that. Route one quoted First as saying "First is currently working on its plans for the existing Mercedes-Benz Citaros", but some of the trade press said they were to be new artics.

Taken from First website:-

"First Bus to extend successful Park & Ride partnership in York
15 Jun 2017

City of York Council and First York are set to extend their partnership delivering York’s Park & Ride service after the bus operator successfully bid for the seven year contract commencing in early 2018.

The new partnership agreement will see fully electric buses operating on three of the six routes, with brand new Euro 6 diesel buses completing the Park & Ride fleet. To help make journeys quicker and easier for passengers, First York have committed to complement the existing range of cash, smartcard and mobile ticket options with contactless bank-card technology.

Alongside this the new buses will also have displays providing useful information for passengers including details about the next bus stop, service data and other useful local information.

Overnight parking will also be introduced at the Askham Bar and Monks Cross Park & Ride sites giving visitors the ability to park at the site en-route to their hotel accommodation, or to access the rail network for a journey elsewhere lasting more than one day.

Executive member for transport and planning, Cllr Ian Gillies, said: “Since 2016 we have seen over 4.6 million passenger journeys on the city’s Park & Ride service. This new agreement between the council and First Bus York will help to reaffirm our position as having one of the best and most well used Park & Ride services in the country.”

Marc Bichtemann, Managing Director at First York, said: “We’re proud to have been selected to continue to operate the York Park & Ride scheme, which is one of the most successful in the country. We will continue to offer customers a high quality and reliable service through the strong and effective partnership that we hold with City of York Council. In line with the new contract, we will be introducing new ultra-low emission vehicles onto the network which will improve air quality for York residents.

“We will be trialling a new electric double decker over the next month with a view to introducing these to Monks Cross and Poppleton Bar in the New Year, as we continue to support the council in its aim to improve air quality by reducing emissions and encouraging car users to switch to bus travel.”

The bid was approved by the executive at a council meeting on Thursday 18 May and the new contract arrangements are set to commence in February 2018.

The competitive tender process took place earlier this year with bus operators given the opportunity to bid for the new contract.

York is one of only a handful of P&R operations which returns revenue (income) back to the council, generating £39k in 2017/8. However, because the income will be lower in 2018/19 than in previous years, the council will need to allocate an additional £85k in its budget in that year.

For more information about York’s Park & Ride service visit www.itravelyork.info/park-and-ride"
 
Last edited:

Tempest3K

Member
Joined
16 Feb 2015
Messages
154
Location
York
That is welcome news for York. I wonder if york will match it some extra investment.
HAHAHAHAHA First don’t invest in anything if they can get away with it, especially in York - their focus up here is very much on Leeds and York is just a useful addition to do a revenue grab.
 

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
19,965
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
Taken from First website:-

First Bus to extend successful Park & Ride partnership in York
15 Jun 2017

City of York Council and First York are set to extend their partnership delivering York’s Park & Ride service after the bus operator successfully bid for the seven year contract commencing in early 2018.

The new partnership agreement will see fully electric buses operating on three of the six routes, with brand new Euro 6 diesel buses completing the Park & Ride fleet. To help make journeys quicker and easier for passengers, First York have committed to complement the existing range of cash, smartcard and mobile ticket options with contactless bank-card technology.

Alongside this the new buses will also have displays providing useful information for passengers including details about the next bus stop, service data and other useful local information.

Overnight parking will also be introduced at the Askham Bar and Monks Cross Park & Ride sites giving visitors the ability to park at the site en-route to their hotel accommodation, or to access the rail network for a journey elsewhere lasting more than one day.

Executive member for transport and planning, Cllr Ian Gillies, said: “Since 2016 we have seen over 4.6 million passenger journeys on the city’s Park & Ride service. This new agreement between the council and First Bus York will help to reaffirm our position as having one of the best and most well used Park & Ride services in the country.”

Marc Bichtemann, Managing Director at First York, said: “We’re proud to have been selected to continue to operate the York Park & Ride scheme, which is one of the most successful in the country. We will continue to offer customers a high quality and reliable service through the strong and effective partnership that we hold with City of York Council. In line with the new contract, we will be introducing new ultra-low emission vehicles onto the network which will improve air quality for York residents.

“We will be trialling a new electric double decker over the next month with a view to introducing these to Monks Cross and Poppleton Bar in the New Year, as we continue to support the council in its aim to improve air quality by reducing emissions and encouraging car users to switch to bus travel.”

The bid was approved by the executive at a council meeting on Thursday 18 May and the new contract arrangements are set to commence in February 2018.

The competitive tender process took place earlier this year with bus operators given the opportunity to bid for the new contract.

York is one of only a handful of P&R operations which returns revenue (income) back to the council, generating £39k in 2017/8. However, because the income will be lower in 2018/19 than in previous years, the council will need to allocate an additional £85k in its budget in that year.

For more information about York’s Park & Ride service visit www.itravelyork.info/park-and-ride

They already have Optare Versa EVs on two routes (Monks & Poppleton) and the commitment was originally for Euro VI vehicles on others. The bid for electric deckers supersedes that it would appear.

The main York fleet is pretty old now and I really can't see much in the way of updating other than via cascades or if the Uni 66 demands it.
 
Last edited:

AB93

Member
Joined
13 Apr 2015
Messages
308
It was mentioned elsewhere that the Citaro's will be retained for one of the Park & Ride routes (I think the 2), along with the 66. I could be speaking utter rubbish though...

The speculation and 'Fake News' surrounding this contract has been phenomenal, and I don't think you'll see all 15 Citaros remain in York...
Some staying for the 2 (low bridge route), yes though.
 

AB93

Member
Joined
13 Apr 2015
Messages
308
There was also government funding for 6 long single decker EVs.
That's the first I've heard of that!

In January 2018, it was announced that First York had been awarded a new contract for the Park & Ride system, with an order for 6 Merc' Artics, 18 E400MMC & 3 Metrodecker EV (Electric), which would replace 15 Merc' Artics & 11 Volvo B7RLE.
Can I assume that the new order for 21 Electric Metrodeckers is additional to and not a revised order?

People have got very carried away with all this, particularly given all the info is actually in the public domain!

When the award was announced, CYC published the vehicle details from the winning bid (including diesel E400s and new Citaros).

The spotting world then got very excited and was practically already lined up on the streets waiting to see the new buses... but if you can find any press releases etc of any of those buses actually having been ordered, then I'll eat my hat...

The next news item was that CYC had been granted government funding to support electric buses.
The follow on from this now is confirmed orders by First for electric buses.
 

Kahuna47

Member
Joined
13 Sep 2017
Messages
112
Go Ahead's official takeover date of Queens Road has just been announced internally - it'll be Sunday 2nd June.
 

winston270twm

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2012
Messages
1,899
Go Ahead's official takeover date of Queens Road has just been announced internally - it'll be Sunday 2nd June.

Has that date gone back from the original expected date ?

All has gone very quiet on the two other Manchester depot sales.
 

overthewater

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2012
Messages
8,153
From the date of the announcement (19th Feb) it will have taken 14.5 weeks to conclude.

Again that is not what my point was, my point was it would take quicker than 8 weeks to get that license and now we have an end date there must know there getting which is quicker than the 8 weeks since appealing.
 

winston270twm

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2012
Messages
1,899
Again that is not what my point was, my point was it would take quicker than 8 weeks to get that license and now we have an end date there must know there getting which is quicker than the 8 weeks since appealing.

Again nothing! The new license application for Go-Ahead was first published in N&P 2852 dated 27th Feb (it would been received before that date), it hasn't taken much less than the 8 weeks.
 

Volvodart

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2010
Messages
2,379
US raider Coast Capital in the driving seat at FirstGroup after boosting stake further

https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money...g-seat-FirstGroup-boosting-stake-further.html

US raider Coast Capital in the driving seat at FirstGroup after boosting stake further
Coast Capital Management bought a further 1.4 per cent of the FTSE 250 group
Move has triggered speculation that Coast Capital is set to demand a shake-up
By BEN HARRINGTON FOR THE MAIL ON SUNDAY

PUBLISHED: 22:01, 20 April 2019 | UPDATED: 22:33, 20 April 2019

The activist pressing for a break-up of FirstGroup has quietly raised its stake in the British bus and rail company to become its biggest shareholder outright.

The move has triggered speculation that Coast Capital Management is set to make fresh demands for a shake-up. The US activist has bought a further 1.4 per cent of the FTSE 250 group, according to stock market filings last week.

That means it owns almost 7.6 per cent of the business, valuing its stake at nearly £100million and making it the largest shareholder.

The move comes after the New York-based hedge fund run by James Rasteh publicly threatened an audacious boardroom coup at the £1.2billion company and called for FirstGroup to break itself up or start paying a dividend.

Aberdeen-based FirstGroup runs the Great Western, South Western and TransPennine Express rail networks. It also operates Greyhound – the largest bus network in the US.

Coast Capital wants FirstGroup to improve the company’s share price following years of underperformance. It also criticised the company’s rejection of a takeover approach last year from American buyout firm Apollo, run by Wall Street tycoon Leon Black.

The hedge fund has suggested splitting FirstGroup’s American and British businesses as one potential solution. Rasteh told Bloomberg: ‘FirstGroup in its current guise is designed for failure. Ten years of extraordinary underperformance are proof enough of that.’

Referring to other investors, he added: ‘We have collectively compromised too much and for too long to now settle for half-way solutions.’ Rasteh accused FirstGroup’s board of ‘driving the bus off the cliff’. He said: ‘If they are deadly intent on continuing to do that they must be ejected from their seats.’

Wolfhart Hauser, FirstGroup’s chairman, rejected Coast Capital’s demands and defended his company’s board.

Since last year, FirstGroup has been conducting a review of its business with reports suggesting private equity firm CVC Capital Partners is eyeing a potential takeover.

Bankers said firms from North America are also interested in parts of FirstGroup. The group is not the only British transport company facing turmoil.

Last week, Stagecoach demanded an independent inquiry into the Government’s handling of rail franchising after Ministers stripped the business of the East Midlands and West Coast franchises and banned it from bidding for two other lines.

Reports suggested Stagecoach branded the bidding process as ‘materially flawed’ after details of its bid were accidentally emailed to Abellio before the Dutch-owned company took over the network.

The Times reported that confidential elements of Stagecoach’s bid strategy were emailed by a senior official at Network Rail to executives at Abellio who were involved in the development of their rival bid.

Stagecoach, which also operates a network of buses across the UK including Megabus, said the leak to Abellio exposed ‘wider questions’ about the Department for Transport’s handling of rail contracts.

The shock announcement about Stagecoach’s loss of the franchise contracts triggered a share price crash of 10 per cent.

City sources said Stagecoach is keen to buy some or all of Arriva’s bus assets after German group Deutsche Bahn decided to offload the British transport group.

Market sources also noted rumours last week that National Express may have approached Stagecoach about a deal after its shares crashed 10 per cent.
 

winston270twm

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2012
Messages
1,899
So much rumors and possible outcomes, It's like the grand national.

At the moment nothing has come of any of them, however, I think all it will now take is for something to finally move forward on the proposed Arriva DB sale or a new takeover approach for First Group offering better value, then we will see increasing consolidation amongst the big boys though mergers & acquisitions.
 

winston270twm

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2012
Messages
1,899
Of course, Firstgroup could now easily pay a dividend to keep them quiet.

Possibly, but I suspect it would be too little, too late. You could also argue, why are they only paying a dividend now their hand is being forced.... Coast Capital ultimately want to extract additional value from their FGP shareholding, that isn't going to happen anytime soon with the current FGP strategy with / without a dividend.

Only a takeover offer would give it any potential upside quickly.
 

Volvodart

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2010
Messages
2,379
The dividends could not be paid last year because of all the write offs! I was expecting them to resume then, apart from this happening. It was Coast that mentioned the dividends.
 

Robertj21a

On Moderation
Joined
22 Sep 2013
Messages
7,518
Shareholders have been incredibly patient, for years. Something needs to change and I doubt that there is enough confidence in the current management for them to hang on much longer. Having said that, I'm amazed that they're still there at present.
 

Volvodart

Established Member
Joined
12 Jun 2010
Messages
2,379
They could probably take over most of Arriva UK bus that Stagecoach could not acquire for competition reasons
 

Anthony ross

Member
Joined
15 Nov 2017
Messages
204
So stagecoach and national express join forces to buy arriva bus uk then stagecoach takes the businesses it wants leaving the rest with national express would I be correct in that theory
 

Jordan Adam

Established Member
Joined
12 Sep 2017
Messages
5,514
Location
Aberdeen
So stagecoach and national express join forces to buy arriva bus uk then stagecoach takes the businesses it wants leaving the rest with national express would I be correct in that theory

I'd find National Express buying the whole of Arriva UK Bus more likely. I don't think Stagecoach will have much if any involvement, maybe a route here and there but they probably won't be getting any divisions or depots.
 

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
19,965
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
So stagecoach and national express join forces to buy arriva bus uk then stagecoach takes the businesses it wants leaving the rest with national express would I be correct in that theory

Highly unlikely Stagecoach being involved in Arriva. Bit simplistic.

As for First, this will surely ratchet the pressure for a U.K./US split. The mention of reintroducing the dividend is more a ploy by Coast to emphasise the issue so if First don’t (or can’t) pay a dividend then the only option is......:rolleyes:
 

overthewater

Established Member
Joined
16 Apr 2012
Messages
8,153
To be fair Stagecoach could be after other parts of Arriva, mainly in mainland EU, but I also can't see National Express wanting all of UK arriva bus operations. What are the chances of a three way joint bid?
 

TheGrandWazoo

Veteran Member
Joined
18 Feb 2013
Messages
19,965
Location
Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
To be fair Stagecoach could be after other parts of Arriva, mainly in mainland EU, but I also can't see National Express wanting all of UK arriva bus operations. What are the chances of a three way joint bid?

I think people are getting a little carried away here. Two way bids? Three way bids? DB want Arriva off the books quickly not being bogged down with competition authority involvement. Hence, an IPO or a sale to a financial institution is probably more likely.

However, back to First (!)...
 

winston270twm

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2012
Messages
1,899
Highly unlikely Stagecoach being involved in Arriva. Bit simplistic.

As for First, this will surely ratchet the pressure for a U.K./US split. The mention of reintroducing the dividend is more a ploy by Coast to emphasise the issue so if First don’t (or can’t) pay a dividend then the only option is......:rolleyes:

Totally agree, there's always been an excuse why a dividend can't be re-instated or profit targets missed. I'm surprised the rest of the major shareholders have sat of their hands for so long.... If Coast can rally around enough shareholders, the BOD will have to do something more drastic.
 

mic

Member
Joined
22 Mar 2015
Messages
416
Location
Mossley
movements in Manchester seen 33846 and 63147 move from Oldham to Queens Rd and 66865 has gone the other way
 

Top