First Group: General Discussion

[overthewater]

Are you just reading on paper that it is profitable or do you know Glasgow well enough to say it's profitable?

At a guess I'd say that overthewater is based in Scotland, so I'd probably say he/she has more knowledge of whether it's profitable. It's similar to your views and comments on Somerset.

More than me that see it first hand:

I will happily repost the account for FIG No1, Look at the accounts, look at the fleet, ( really look at it) then look at the investment since 2012: It's not that great. the numbers really dont stack up.... Its has all the hallmarks of Wigan... much much older fleet and half decent profit.

Fig No2 has much better fleet investment, lots of new buses, and overall its profits are larger % compared to the Turnover. Where the big money then? If Glasgow City is that great? There still have plenty of older 10 -13 years + on core routes.

Its clever trick.... Why isnt FIG no1 and no2 not on the same accounts? its to help No2 stay better. its the same reason why FSE was separated from Midland bluebird accounts, to make MB healthier.

 

[Blackpudding]

Are you just reading on paper that it is profitable or do you know Glasgow well enough to say it's profitable?

At a guess I'd say that overthewater is based in Scotland, so I'd probably say he/she has more knowledge of whether it's profitable. It's similar to your views and comments on Somerset.

Just the person to join this thread! Whenever I judged the business performance it was based on 'Return of Capital Employed (ROCE)' rather than profit against turnover. Having being retired for a number of years what is the measure to judge performance on these days?

 

[Robertj21a]

More than me that see it first hand:

I will happily repost the account for FIG No1, Look at the accounts, look at the fleet, ( really look at it) then look at the investment since 2012: It's not that great. the numbers really dont stack up.... Its has all the hallmarks of Wigan... much much older fleet and half decent profit.

Fig No2 has much better fleet investment, lots of new buses, and overall its profits are larger % compared to the Turnover. Where the big money then? If Glasgow City is that great? There still have plenty of older 10 -13 years + on core routes.

Its clever trick.... Why isnt FIG no1 and no2 not on the same accounts? its to help No2 stay better. its the same reason why FSE was separated from Midland bluebird accounts, to make MB healthier.

Sorry, but as I said, I've given up explaining. It's all on the Companies House files if you care to look.

 

[Robertj21a]

Are you just reading on paper that it is profitable or do you know Glasgow well enough to say it's profitable?

At a guess I'd say that overthewater is based in Scotland, so I'd probably say he/she has more knowledge of whether it's profitable. It's similar to your views and comments on Somerset.

Unfortunately, it seems that nobody is reading or understanding anything about the First Group Accounts. It's very obvious that just living in Scotland doesn't actually help whatsoever !

It is certainly nothing like 'my views and comments on Somerset'. That was the quite simple issue that you were making wild statements about profitable routes etc when you had no factual evidence whatsoever, just more of your assumptions and fantasy world.

What is it about people on here who simply can't understand that First Group (and all other PLCs) have to document their finances very carefully indeed, as laid down by law. They are audited independently and submitted for registration at Companies House - where they will become public documents that anyone can view. That is where the facts will be - not with enthusiasts who think they know better.

 

[overthewater]

At least you understand the accounts are public document unlike certain people on here who made formal complaints about posting public account details.

Ive I just postage the main part of the accounts for Fig1. I would be nice if someone would explain: is FIG NO1 only making the profits it does because of the much older fleet? I also notice when First promote "First Glasgow Fleet investment" there never really say its for Fig2 routes., of course not to say there hasn't been some investment on the city route but is not much overall.

I still believe Glasgow city is like Wigan.

 

[Blackpudding]

At least you understand the accounts are public document unlike certain people on here who made formal complaints about posting public account details.

Ive I just postage the main part of the accounts for Fig1. I would be nice if someone would explain: is FIG NO1 only making the profits it does because of the much older fleet? I also notice when First promote "First Glasgow Fleet investment" there never really say its for Fig2 routes., of course not to say there hasn't been some investment on the city route but is not much overall.

I still believe Glasgow city is like Wigan.

I couldn't find any formal complaint about posting public accounts. where was this please?
The fleet age is irrelevant if they are still taking a weekly charge on depreciation. That doesn't change if it is year 1, week 1 or year 14, week1. It is straight line according to the accounts.
Over the last 4 years there has been significant investment in single deck vehicles and to a lesser extent in double deck vehicles.

Both Glasgow 1 and 2 make profit, probably not enough but there are more pressing issues I would suggest.

I think Wigan was a different case altogether. It needed investment at a time when hard financial decisions needed to be taken and was on the periphery of FiGM operations. That it was sold and that Glasgow 1 is still there says all you need to know. Having said that everything has a price and everything is always for sale at the right price.

 

[overthewater]

I couldn't find any formal complaint about posting public accounts. where was this please?

I would say 4 years ago, I had to speak with the mods on here etc

Over the last 4 years there has been significant investment in single deck vehicles and to a lesser extent in double deck vehicles.

Thats Fig No2, not the main city depot.

 

[Blackpudding]

I would say 4 years ago, I had to speak with the mods on here etc


Thats Fig No2, not the main city depot.

Gosh. I wasn't a member four year ago. No wonder I didn't remember it! As you say though if it is the public domain it's up for discussion.
I disagree that Glasgow 1 has not had investment. New ADL E40D and E30D have been introduced over the last 4/5 years. I agree that they are due new/newer vehicle to replace the old Dennis Tridents/Darts but that will be part of group replacement plan which as professionals First will have thought through. I only ever managed HGV's but nothing I see in the accounts would cause me concern. I don't think you should be concerned either.

 

[Volvodart]

Somewhere in First has to have the older buses. It is just circumstances that it is Glasgow, because managment there over the yeaars has been very poor, necessitating all the older second hand double deckers coming in when they decided they needed more double deckers. Aberdeen had the same problem of older buses a few years ago, but thanks to the rights issue, it got a new fleet.

 

[Blackpudding]

Somewhere in First has to have the older buses. It is just circumstances that it is Glasgow, because managment there over the yeaars has been very poor, necessitating all the older second hand double deckers coming in when they decided they needed more double deckers. Aberdeen had the same problem of older buses a few years ago, but thanks to the rights issue, it got a new fleet.

I can't let this pass without comment. I don't know of any second hand fleet that Glasgow have received apart for a swap with South Yorkshire when they received double deck vehicles that they swapped for single deck vehicles of a similar age. Which ones are you referring to? Aberdeen hasn't had a new fleet - it has new vehicles but the last were ADL E20D in 2015 and then it was only 7. Please justify your comments.

 

[THarris123]

Just the person to join this thread! Whenever I judged the business performance it was based on 'Return of Capital Employed (ROCE)' rather than profit against turnover. Having being retired for a number of years what is the measure to judge performance on these days?

I've been on this thread for about 3 years now thank you.

I would look at a number of ratios, but as you say ROCE would be a good indicator. But since I don't know Glasgow well, Im not going to comment on it. I have no idea of its profitability, but I know damn well that people who are based in the area have more of an idea of the levels of profitability than someone the other side of the country.

 

[THarris123]

Unfortunately, it seems that nobody is reading or understanding anything about the First Group Accounts. It's very obvious that just living in Scotland doesn't actually help whatsoever !

It is certainly nothing like 'my views and comments on Somerset'. That was the quite simple issue that you were making wild statements about profitable routes etc when you had no factual evidence whatsoever, just more of your assumptions and fantasy world.

What is it about people on here who simply can't understand that First Group (and all other PLCs) have to document their finances very carefully indeed, as laid down by law. They are audited independently and submitted for registration at Companies House - where they will become public documents that anyone can view. That is where the facts will be - not with enthusiasts who think they know better.

I think you'll find that in a group set of accounts found on Companies House there is a lot hidden. There are plenty of intercompany transactions that hide the true nature of the profitability of a subsidiary.

 

[overthewater]

Somewhere in First has to have the older buses. It is just circumstances that it is Glasgow, because managment there over the yeaars has been very poor, necessitating all the older second hand double deckers coming in when they decided they needed more double deckers. Aberdeen had the same problem of older buses a few years ago, but thanks to the rights issue, it got a new fleet.

At least your admit that overall FIG no1 has above average /large share of older stock in us. Because of that the operations are being operated by near end of life stock. There still that large batch of 53 plate Alx400 that were sent up for Commonwealth games, there 15 years old now but thankful there were refurbished, but they're much older stock were never that lucky.

Your right somewhere need to have older buses but it need to be fine balance across the fleet. Midland bluebird has better balance, Good amount of new stock while still having plenty of stock which is 55/57 plate or older.

I dont believe there is any spare cash for a major fleet overhaul over the next five years, that the pressing problems. 25 new buses are due thanks to the Scottish Green fund. Let's also be fair here some of the stock its a waste of money retro fitting to improve emissions. At point is it worth it if there send up buses that are 14-15 years old to Glasgow and will only have a two year service?

 

[Blackpudding]

I've been on this thread for about 3 years now thank you.

I would look at a number of ratios, but as you say ROCE would be a good indicator. But since I don't know Glasgow well, Im not going to comment on it. I have no idea of its profitability, but I know damn well that people who are based in the area have more of an idea of the levels of profitability than someone the other side of the country.

I did say the thread and not the forum and by the way I miss your general input. What other ratios? The accounts are available for everyone to see wherever they are located and a professional eye is always helpful.

 

[Volvodart]

I can't let this pass without comment. I don't know of any second hand fleet that Glasgow have received apart for a swap with South Yorkshire when they received double deck vehicles that they swapped for single deck vehicles of a similar age. Which ones are you referring to? Aberdeen hasn't had a new fleet - it has new vehicles but the last were ADL E20D in 2015 and then it was only 7. Please justify your comments.

23 e300, 26 Streetlites, 25 E500s.

 

[Blackpudding]

23 e300, 26 Streetlites, 25 E500s.

Ok. But the E300 were in 2013 (four years ago), the StreeLites were in 2014 (three years ago going on 4) and the E500s were cascaded from Glasgow are 8 years old. Hardly a new fleet!

 

[Volvodart]

Ok. But the E300 were in 2013 (four years ago), the StreeLites were in 2014 (three years ago going on 4) and the E500s were cascaded from Glasgow are 8 years old. Hardly a new fleet!

I was talking about the rights issue money. They were new at the time! The E500s were never going to be new buses as they were only really required when the university was open for students.

 

[THarris123]

I did say the thread and not the forum and by the way I miss your general input. What other ratios? The accounts are available for everyone to see wherever they are located and a professional eye is always helpful.

I believe Ive been on the thread for nearly as long as I've been on the forum too.
Net profit margin, gross profit margin, asset turnover, return on equity. Those are the common ratios (ROCE being the most well used and recognised). There are also plenty of ratios that just compare year on year figures.
To invest in vehicles I would probably would look at asset turnover to see how much each vehicle is earning.
The issue with an international group company is in order to get a true value in a subsidiary, you need to remove intercompany transactions, hence the accounts on Companies House don't necessarily provide an accurate picture.

 

[Blackpudding]

I was talking about the rights issue money. They were new at the time! The E500s were never going to be new buses as they were only really required when the university was open for students.

Fair enough

 

[Blackpudding]

I believe Ive been on the thread for nearly as long as I've been on the forum too.

It wasn't meant as a criticism and thanks for the additional measurements. Your last sentence says it all.

 

[Volvodart]

Of course, all Tim O'Toole's words about only investing in areas where they have local authority support ignores one thing. What about the areas already making acceptable margin? One way to reduce margins there is to make them run an older fleet.

 

[overthewater]

First carries out threat to slash bus investment
http://www.passengertransport.co.uk/2017/11/first-carries-out-threat-to-slash-bus-investment/

FirstGroup has carried out its threat to stop buying new buses in towns and cities where local authorities are failing to provide adequate bus priority and pro-bus measures.

In the year to April 2018, First said it expected to take delivery of 180 new buses, approximately 100 fewer than the previous year.

Over the past 12 months, chief executive Tim O’Toole has repeatedly warned that low UK bus profitability meant investment could not be sustained unless councils take steps to help the company grow revenue and reduce costs, particularly by combatting traffic congestion on bus routes. Announcing the new investment policy at the presentation of First’s half year financial results, O’Toole said areas where new bus deliveries would be concentrated included Bristol and Leeds.

During the half year, cost cutting saw operating profit grow from £13.5m to £15.8m although the profit margin remained comfortably the lowest of any major bus group at 3.7%. Revenue rose slightly to £428.2m, but patronage continued to fall with commercial passenger numbers down 0.3% in the six months.

“We are moving forward by confining our future investment to those areas that can generate the necessary returns, and that requires local authorities to provide the environment in which reliable bus services can be delivered,” O’ Toole explained.

We are now saying in the current environment we can’t be as patient… FirstGroup has put so much capital into its UK bus business

He said First had been patient in continuing to invest in the hope that profit margins would improve significantly across the UK bus division as a whole. However, he added: “We are now saying in the current environment we can’t be as patient… FirstGroup has put so much capital into its UK bus business. It can’t continue down this route unless we have partners who are going to work with us.”

Meanwhile, in the UK rail division, operating profit for the six months increased from £22.1m to £31.1m largely as a result of compensation payments from Network Rail for disruption caused by engineering works on the Great Western Network and a four week contribution from the company’s new South Western Railway franchise. However, First said it had needed to inject a small payment into the TransPennine franchise from its reserve fund designed to ensure the business has sufficient cash to meet contractual obligations if financial performance falls below expectations.

Across the group, operating profit was flat at £89.4m due to reduced profits at the North American school bus, transit and coaching businesses. Severe weather including hurricanes accounted for £6m of the profit fall in the Americas.

This now opens another can because if there claiming there is 180 buses on order does that mean people were right there is no longer a national fleet order or is first using some voodoo magic to help explain the lower new bus order etc.

 

[Volvodart]

There has been no change at all as has been said before. About a third of the 180 were carried forward from last year's order. As far as I am aware, what we know so far does not amount to 180 buses, so there could be an announcement coming sometime.

 

[F Great Eastern]

There were certainly vehicles that were deferred - I know Aircoach in Dublin for one were due a batch of vehicles in the summer that have now been pushed to 2018.

 

[overthewater]

There has been no change at all as has been said before. About a third of the 180 were carried forward from last year's order. As far as I am aware, what we know so far does not amount to 180 buses, so there could be an announcement coming sometime.

Could that cover 2017-2019 period then? It can be forgiven the amount of confusement thats has taken place since First extended the life of the fleet to 17 years, it cut back its order, but also extended the delivery period, not once but twice it would seem as I believe all 2016-17 had been delivered.

I take it Essex and Leicester councils are helping out first?

 

[THarris123]

There has been no change at all as has been said before. About a third of the 180 were carried forward from last year's order. As far as I am aware, what we know so far does not amount to 180 buses, so there could be an announcement coming sometime.

Isn't the 180 buses from April 17 to March 18? Does that mean the new vehicles in Bristol, due for Cornwall, due for Leeds and due for Bath are included in this 180 figure?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Could that cover 2017-2019 period then? It can be forgiven the amount of confusement thats has taken place since First extended the life of the fleet to 17 years, it cut back its order, but also extended the delivery period, not once but twice it would seem as I believe all 2016-17 had been delivered.

I take it Essex and Leicester councils are helping out first?

Not certain I get you - are Essex and Leicester getting new vehicles?

First's cost challenges are pretty clear. The plan to reduce capital spend is just backing up by their asset life extension (reducing depreciation cost, bolstering the balance sheet, as well as reducing capital requirement). However, they have no requirement to tell enthusiasts anything; many listed companies don't feel the need to provide press releases on capital spend.

 

[overthewater]

Isnt Leicester and Essex due new stock?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Isnt Leicester and Essex due new stock?

That's what I'm asking.... I wasn't aware that either operation was getting new fleet.

 

[Robertj21a]

That's what I'm asking.... I wasn't aware that either operation was getting new fleet.

Correct, they're not.