First Group: General Discussion

[Robertj21a]

Sell off? There are probably hundreds of routes across the country they could withdraw from and benefit profitability. Death by a thousand cuts.

.....but that wouldn't give them the same sizeable capital injection in order to acquire new(er) vehicles.

 

[DragonEast]

.....but that wouldn't give them the same sizeable capital injection in order to acquire new(er) vehicles.

. . . or to pay off their existing debts! They could still cascade though, as happened on the closure of the Borders operation; and Devon?

But seriously the trouble I have with First Bus is whether they could afford to sell what others would want to buy, and vice versa? Unless, perhaps, it were the lot. Then we have the trouble that the Competition Commission seem to be fans of Animal Farm: four legs good, anything less bad. If First are, or have, to retrench, why buy now when you just have to bide your time? Reading buses!

 

[route101]

Well 67701-10 were 60 plate

Ah the old airport buses.

 

[overthewater]

. . . or to pay off their existing debts! They could still cascade though, as happened on the closure of the Borders operation; and Devon?

But seriously the trouble I have with First Bus is whether they could afford to sell what others would want to buy, and vice versa? Unless, perhaps, it were the lot. Then we have the trouble that the Competition Commission seem to be fans of Animal Farm: four legs good, anything less bad. If First are, or have, to retrench, why buy now when you just have to bide your time? Reading buses!

UKBUS is not the top of the tree, and First has to get to grips with now, its been 6 years and its master plans isn;t working. It Greyhound that need to be sold off and reduce its debt pile, once and for all...

Ah the old airport buses.

Which are no longer in Glasgow but in Somerset for route 28?

 

[GaryMcEwan]

Glasgow has lost more seating capacity from Caledonia (Ex Parkhead) by the looks of it. 4 B7TL's have been sent to Bristol in exchange for 4 of their Streetlites...Struggle to get a seat at the best of times without even more deckers going elsewhere.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

UKBUS is not the top of the tree, and First has to get to grips with now, its been 6 years and its master plans isn;t working. It Greyhound that need to be sold off and reduce its debt pile, once and for all...

I have no idea what that first line actually means....

Put bluntly, First are strapped for capital. There are service reductions across their operations (notably, it is not much different to what Stagecoach have been doing across the country - no hyperbole when the North Devon Wave services were reduced) and that lower fleet requirement with the extension to asset lives are being used to allow older fleet to be replaced.

I'm not certain that the frenzied speculation when talking about First and potential disposals is particularly interesting or adds anything to the subject.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Glasgow has lost more seating capacity from Caledonia (Ex Parkhead) by the looks of it. 4 B7TL's have been sent to Bristol in exchange for 4 of their Streetlites...Struggle to get a seat at the best of times without even more deckers going elsewhere.

Aren't they going into Overtown depot so a re-jig of allocations?

 

[GaryMcEwan]

Aren't they going into Overtown depot so a re-jig of allocations?

It looks like 47465 (SK63KLD) is already at Overtown. So what's going to be plugging the gaps with the B7s leaving Caledonia?

 

[overthewater]

I have no idea what that first line actually means....

Put bluntly, First are strapped for capital. There are service reductions across their operations (notably, it is not much different to what Stagecoach have been doing across the country - no hyperbole when the North Devon Wave services were reduced) and that lower fleet requirement with the extension to asset lives are being used to allow older fleet to be replaced.

I'm not certain that the frenzied speculation when talking about First and potential disposals is particularly interesting or adds anything to the subject.

What I'm trying to say is, UK BUS isn't the root cause of the troubles. BUT there is deffo problems within the operations which First are trying to resolve. The main reason for First worse problems is Greyhound, that whats caused the debts. First can't blame the lack of new rail franchise for it woes.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

What I'm trying to say is, UK BUS isn't the root cause of the troubles. BUT there is deffo problems within the operations which First are trying to resolve. The main reason for First worse problems is Greyhound, that whats caused the debts. First can't blame the lack of new rail franchise for it woes.

It wasn't Greyhound per se but the entire Laidlaw purchase that caused their debt problems. However, it isn't so much the debt that is the issue (though they do have to pay interest on it and they are paying it down with more to drop off in 2017/8). It is capital that is the concern.

 

[baza585]

It wasn't Greyhound per se but the entire Laidlaw purchase that caused their debt problems. However, it isn't so much the debt that is the issue (though they do have to pay interest on it and they are paying it down with more to drop off in 2017/8). It is capital that is the concern.

My reading of their strategy is that they are prioritising paying down debt as opposed to capital investment in UK Bus. Not unreasonable as a strategy if that debt is too expensive and a bigger drag on profit than the extra marginal cost of operating older less fuel efficient more unreliable vehicles. But this only works in the short term; in the longer term those buses will have to be replaced or the fleet size reduced (or both).

Stagecoach are cutting back on marginal services across the country in a very similar way to First (although they have a steady stream of shiny new ADL products to keep the enthusiasts happy). Arriva I think are broadly similar; Go Ahead appear to have a different strategy for each opco, rather than one overall strategy.

 

[Jordan Adam]

What's the life expectancy of buses after refurbished? Over here only 5 yrs but most of them where failing right from refurb plant

Most of the B10BLEs are still pretty solid, as i said they're still to this day the most reliable buses up here. While many believe they could quite easily go another decade realistically we're looking at 4 - 6 more years.

 

[THarris123]

Which are no longer in Glasgow but in Somerset for route 28?

Yep currently used on 28. But the point I was making is that they were the only 2010 purchased vehicles in Glasgow.

Edit: 54302 and 54304 are both 10 plates too in Glasgow.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Yep currently used on 28. But the point I was making is that they were the only 2010 purchased vehicles in Glasgow.

Edit: 54302 and 54304 are both 10 plates too in Glasgow.

I don’t think those two vehicles are owned by First?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

My reading of their strategy is that they are prioritising paying down debt as opposed to capital investment in UK Bus. Not unreasonable as a strategy if that debt is too expensive and a bigger drag on profit than the extra marginal cost of operating older less fuel efficient more unreliable vehicles. But this only works in the short term; in the longer term those buses will have to be replaced or the fleet size reduced (or both).

Stagecoach are cutting back on marginal services across the country in a very similar way to First (although they have a steady stream of shiny new ADL products to keep the enthusiasts happy). Arriva I think are broadly similar; Go Ahead appear to have a different strategy for each opco, rather than one overall strategy.

One of more lucid posts we’ve seen; think you’re on the money in terms of the strategy and that they’re restricted in how long that can be sustained.

Stagecoach have trimmed a lot in places like Tyne and Wear as well as Scotland and North Devon yet it doesn’t attract the focus. That’s before you get onto things like Go Ahead in East Anglia!

 

[Volvodart]

They also have to find money to resume paying a dividend, which cannot be far off!

 

[DragonEast]

I think there may be a point that is lost. From a financial perspective, I'm quite prepared to agree that First Bus is well run in the circumstances. I would even have it down as their strength. But important, nay vital, as it is, a business isn't just an accounting device surely? When I compare them to competitors, and it shows most clearly in terms of staff attitudes, reliability and real customer care (not just going through the PR motions), even business acumen, the others seem to want to be in the business. First often don't give that impression. It's not just constraints on resources (which everyone has, more or less) but shows in how you deal with them, and I would even consider that as much a consequence as a cause. They might start every press release with Britain's "leading transport operator", but it always raises a laugh with me, rather like an empty stand-up line or a line from a ghost. If it were true they wouldn't need to say it. Going through the motions. The impression I get is almost management by a receiver. Of course they don't want to destroy the business, but they don't care for it either. It's not about money. It's about commitment. Loyalty, perhaps. The reason why I suspect the disposals hydra keeps rearing its head isn't so much about money as the feeling it's a legacy business, not a core business. The customers understand. So do the staff, incidentally. So the question always remains: what is First Bus long-term future? No one, I suspect knows. Or frankly, perhaps, cares. It is just an accounting device, after all. The rest of the bus industry face the same challenges of course, but not the question in the same way. Owners might well change, but the owners want for the time being to do the best for their offspring and hand them on in good shape. Do First actually care? I'm not sure anyone (in the business too) is convinced of it.

May be it's not the "facts". But perceptions matter. Sometimes, a lot.

 

[Strathclyder]

It looks like 47465 (SK63KLD) is already at Overtown. So what's going to be plugging the gaps with the B7s leaving Caledonia?

The Streetlites seem to have been swapped with WX55-reg B7RLEs, plugging the gaps the Geminis have left behind; 66955 (WX55 TZS) was noted on the 6 last week (15th November). Makes the bitter pill of losing some of the most versatile deckers in the fleet (despite their increasing age & fuel consumption figures) just a little bit easier to swallow. For Caledonia, at the very least.

I don’t think those two vehicles are owned by First?

Those are SPT-owned Bluebird Tucana-bodied V.W. Transporters, leased out to First for use on tendered routes in Lanarkshire. Three of them (54302, 54304 & 54307) are currently based out of Blantyre. There were originally more of them, but they were either passed onto other operators or replaced outright by larger vehicles as tenders changed.

 

[Jordan Adam]

As already mention enthusiasts seem to ignore all the massive cuts Stagecoach do and First get all the focus. A good example of a Stagecoach mass cut is up here where the X18 which ran on a 20 minute frequency has been replaced by a 218 which runs 3 times a day. Further to that the service on the 37 between Kintore and Inverurie has been cut from 4 buses per hour to 1 bus per hour.

Spoiler: X18 & 218 Timetable

Here's a timetable of the now withdrawn X18 and the 218 which replaced it to give you an idea of the mass cut. The other Aberdeen - Westhill service (X17) has been cut from Every 10 minutes to Every 15 minutes.

For anyone wondering why i'm posting this it's just top prove my point that it's not only First doing "mass cuts"

 

[Robertj21a]

As already mention enthusiasts seem to ignore all the massive cuts Stagecoach do and First get all the focus. A good example of a Stagecoach mass cut is up here where the X18 which ran on a 20 minute frequency has been replaced by a 218 which runs 3 times a day. Further to that the service on the 37 between Kintore and Inverurie has been cut from 4 buses per hour to 1 bus per hour.

Spoiler: X18 & 218 Timetable

Here's a timetable of the now withdrawn X18 and the 218 which replaced it to give you an idea of the mass cut. The other Aberdeen - Westhill service (X17) has been cut from Every 10 minutes to Every 15 minutes.
View attachment 39746

For anyone wondering why i'm posting this it's just top prove my point that it's not only First doing "mass cuts"

I don't think that anybody doubts that Stagecoach (and many other bus operators) are also having to cut routes across the country - it's a very difficult time for all of them. The significance re First Bus is that they are already in a poor financial position, will need to cut costs even more savagely, have little ability to buy sufficient new buses for normal fleet replacement, and are expected to close down more depots, or sell off specific operations.
Of course, it's also that this thread is designed to focus on First Group......

 

[overthewater]

Robertj21a is spot on, this is First group thread, you can read other threads and you will see the cuts being made elsewhere but unlike First; Stagecoach are still interesting, Ayrshire had cuts in the summer and yet 25 brand new decker have just turned up. East Scotland thread had all the details and complaints about those cuts just you can happily read to see what happened there ( the cuts were made Aug 2016 ) but even with that Fife got new coaches and are also about to get some new stock for the 747. While in Aberdeenshire, even with the cuts back due to the oil and gas turn down, new coaches have appeared for route 10. Preston area there been cuts but again new deckers have turned up for the X2 etc

 

[Sybic26]

Re comments from Jordan Adam, Kintore has an off peak service to both Aberdeen and Inverurie every 30 minutes seven days a week.

The changes to the services to from Aberdeen to Westhill and Alford (services X18 and 218) came about when First Aberdeen withdrew their service the park and ride site at Kingswells. Perhaps Volvodart could give further details.

Regarding capital investment 2008 to 2012, First purchased in the order of 540 vehicles for their London fleets. They mostly passed to the Go-Ahead group and Metroline when First sold their London operations.

 

[DragonEast]

Perhaps we'd prefer First's Essex subsidiary. It isn't cutting but seemingly expanding. The consequence is that it makes a hash of everything.

We can of course focus on one thing, whether it's bus orders, cuts or financial management, but running any business is about more than one thing. If a cut route has the demand then someone will step in, and perhaps make a better job of it. (Though I'm not sure it'd be First). We can't force ops to maintain services, though perhaps that's what makes the idea of commissioning so appealing.

I fear it's an easier job (for someone else usually) to recover service cuts than from making a hash of the lot. OK if it's our route we'll fear the worst (as we always do), but a bus network is always more than one route. I've always felt that any successful business is about as much what you don't do as what you do. Cuts are inevitable, they always were. Who makes the "biggest" cut is a sterile discussion. The world changes. Animals adapt. Humans are not an exception.

 

[Whiteway215]

Going back a few days and referring to the Aberdeen artics. Not being familiar with the area could someone please enlighten me what these are used on and why so many are being laid up. A report on another thread states some of these are rumoured to transfer to the Bristol area? Thanks.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Robertj21a is spot on, this is First group thread, you can read other threads and you will see the cuts being made elsewhere but unlike First; Stagecoach are still interesting, Ayrshire had cuts in the summer and yet 25 brand new decker have just turned up. East Scotland thread had all the details and complaints about those cuts just you can happily read to see what happened there ( the cuts were made Aug 2016 ) but even with that Fife got new coaches and are also about to get some new stock for the 747. While in Aberdeenshire, even with the cuts back due to the oil and gas turn down, new coaches have appeared for route 10. Preston area there been cuts but again new deckers have turned up for the X2 etc

I think you're missing the point. Yes this a First Group thread but why are people so agitated with First withdrawing services in Stoke on Trent when it's a pattern that is reflected across the country? In fact, why is it so important that you (who lives in Scotland) feels the need to start an entirely new thread based on a story from the Sentinel?

Meanwhile, Arriva outside of their Leicestershire powerbase have trimmed back their Midlands operations in Staffordshire with the sale of Burton on Trent ops, the ill fated purchase of not one but two firms in Midland and Wardles, downgrading and finally closure of Stafford depot, and the decline of Cannock's operations generally. Are their masses of column inches, links to articles, gnashing of teeth and general rancour.....? Barely a mention!

First's fleet is c.6000 so they should be getting c.350 vehicles per annum. Clearly, by extending asset lives and some shrinkage (whether by withdrawing non economic routes, removal of tenders, or other efficiencies), they feel that they can invest less capital and manage the fleet replacement that way but it is only something that can be done for a year or two.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Regarding capital investment 2008 to 2012, First purchased in the order of 540 vehicles for their London fleets. They mostly passed to the Go-Ahead group and Metroline when First sold their London operations.

Go Ahead didn't get many (if any?) vehicles from Northumberland Park; there were a large batch of e400s that were redeployed in Leicester that came from there. It was Metroline and Tower Transit who were the main recipients.

 

[overthewater]

I think you're missing the point. Yes this a First Group thread but why are people so agitated with First withdrawing services in Stoke on Trent when it's a pattern that is reflected across the country? In fact, why is it so important that you (who lives in Scotland) feels the need to start an entirely new thread based on a story from the Sentinel?

Fair point, The story from the Sentinel also covers D&G and gives a pretty good background details about the troubles in local area. Its was very possible in this UK wide thread some useful piece could have been mist or lost by many readers of this forum and also because there wasn't a thread covering that areas unlike the south west or Parts of scotland etc

THEN I clicked "Staffordshire Bus News" Sorry about that and your right it should have gone in there.

However the amount of cuts and changes are on the higher end of the scales, it's like no matter what First or D&G try and do its doesnt work its rather complexing. Could anyone else do a better job? Only smarties know the answer

Meanwhile, Arriva outside of their Leicestershire powerbase have trimmed back their Midlands operations in Staffordshire with the sale of Burton on Trent ops, the ill fated purchase of not one but two firms in Midland and Wardles, downgrading and finally closure of Stafford depot, and the decline of Cannock's operations generally. Are their masses of column inches, links to articles, gnashing of teeth and general rancour.....? Barely a mention!.

There was a thread about Burton depot being sold off https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/arriva-proposed-sale.129858/ I think many where happy that Arriva give it over to someone. Im surprised no one has stated a Arriva midlands thread on here to cover most of the company. I would like to see more threads about certain other areas to get more knowledge about what happening. I did start one for Stagecoach Scunthrope etc because that Bad area of the Empire but most people were like meh.



I know what you're saying: Its just First group are in the darker waters more than anyone else. Look at Arriva, Stagecoach and others who are still investing in new buses at a decent level, plus overall it looks like other companies are just trimming away the fat, ( there are exceptions to the rules where big cuts are happening) look at the complaints in Ayrshire yet still 20 odd brand new deckers etc Thats when you know a company is making the right sort of cuts back ( ie not the slash and burn and throwing the baby out with the bath water to save money to cut overheads, resulting trying to cling on or provide a half arse service. What make you wonder what the heck being going on in the first place)

This all goes back to what I asked years ago about when the trouble first started six years.... At what point can First bite the bullet and have to invest? A what points should First say sod it, we can't keep doing this, we have bigger problems to deal with.

It was said to me there should go after the big money making areas, and lets hope for the subsidiary's further down list will be sorted out at a much later date...........well it's not turned out that way, and it gotten ever worse.

You may not like what I'm going to say but the poor man company that has gone the right was is Midland bluebird, ( it took a little bit longer than it should because of the undertakings and Scotrail Controls and milage floor) There never tinkled etc there just slashed whole company right back and within that new tighter operations invested in new stock. It has paid off. Passenger are up, profits are up, Company can now look at new routes and operations, and I believe there more stuff to happen next year. Cornwall went the same way, Somerset also went this way and started to grow again, no new buses yet.

First can't even afford "c.350 vehicles per annum" Where been here before haven't we, there tried this trick before and it didn't work. Whats to say nothing improves, and in 2020 try and extend asset again?

Simple and awful truth is this, First needs to stop doing things by half measures and just go for it. People dont like hearing that, it's like some sort of personal attack, but the hardest thing is alway when to know you can;t win the fight. I believe UK Bus can do wonders but it's like dog chasing its tail........

 

[Robertj21a]

I think you're missing the point. Yes this a First Group thread but why are people so agitated with First withdrawing services in Stoke on Trent when it's a pattern that is reflected across the country? In fact, why is it so important that you (who lives in Scotland) feels the need to start an entirely new thread based on a story from the Sentinel?

Meanwhile, Arriva outside of their Leicestershire powerbase have trimmed back their Midlands operations in Staffordshire with the sale of Burton on Trent ops, the ill fated purchase of not one but two firms in Midland and Wardles, downgrading and finally closure of Stafford depot, and the decline of Cannock's operations generally. Are their masses of column inches, links to articles, gnashing of teeth and general rancour.....? Barely a mention!

First's fleet is c.6000 so they should be getting c.350 vehicles per annum. Clearly, by extending asset lives and some shrinkage (whether by withdrawing non economic routes, removal of tenders, or other efficiencies), they feel that they can invest less capital and manage the fleet replacement that way but it is only something that can be done for a year or two.

Quite agree. It's probably fair to say that Arriva is hardly better than First in some/many of its operations - some are good but some are poor (just like First). We could well have an Arriva thread on here as well, with many of the usual issues arising, but this particular thread was started due to the poor financial state of First Group - and even their survival. I don't believe that any of the other 'Big 4' (or 5) were/are in the same financial state.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Re comments from Jordan Adam, Kintore has an off peak service to both Aberdeen and Inverurie every 30 minutes seven days a week.

The changes to the services to from Aberdeen to Westhill and Alford (services X18 and 218) came about when First Aberdeen withdrew their service the park and ride site at Kingswells. Perhaps Volvodart could give further details.

The up coming service changes in Janaury will see buses between Kintore and Inverurie reduced to 1 bus per hour. The change to the X18/218 happened in May around 6 weeks after First's changes. Although First's were not a cut as far as the X40 is considered as the PVR remains the same and the buses saved from shortening the route have been reinvested on the route to give it a better frequency. The X40 would normally leave Kingswells with on average 1.5 people per bus off peak. But the Stagecoach service serves many areas that are miles and miles away from any other bus service to the city.
Anyway this doesn't really matter much now as this thread is about FirstGroup, i was just making a point on my original post that it's not only First doing cuts, First seem to get far more media attention. The local newpaper has a bit of a bias too, just look at their headlines for each of the service changes!

 

[THarris123]

I tend to agree with both Robert and Wazoo on this one.

I agree that there is much more hype over whatever First does. I think this is mainly because a lot of the things they do aren't the most intelligent. Such things like changing services or vehicle movements seem to waste so much money. Certainly for me that makes me frustrated. I'm someone that wants to see First succeed, mainly because it would eventually make things much better for passengers. I want all the bigger companies to succeed to a certain degree so that they can provide more opportunities and a better experience to travel for the public.

Stagecoach tend to do things better from my experiences. Yes they do have cutbacks, etc, but most ideas tend to be better thought through and communicated. Stagecoach tend to invest in areas each year and tend to expand more than First. First seem to believe that cutting back everything and selling off stuff will cure their profit problems, but they are very wrong. If they didn't constantly change networks, renumber, increase prices and spend unnecessary amounts on vehicle movements, they would be much more respected among enthusiasts and the general public. Certainly I look at some of the things they've done in the West and it really makes me lose faith in them. Then from the other end you see Stagecoach expanding into Bristol, who you can usually guarantee will be more reliable than First and have a more generic type of vehicle on there. With First, you might get a decker on a service that doesn't need it in Bath and a single on a service where capacity is high and it needs deckers in Bristol. Things just don't make sense with First and aren't well thought out, unlike Stagecoach.

It is clear about the hype involved with First among enthusiasts compared to Stagecoach - look at Stagecoach in Somerset. Hardly anyone batters an eyelid over them only having one service into Taunton now and yet when First give up on something you feel like the world will end the next day.

First do try their best, but the best is becoming an increasingly unplanned, disorganised and not very well thought through process.