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First Group: General Discussion

Robertj21a

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The accounts for Stagecoach companies currently being filed show similar declines in margins to First, although they were higher in the first place.

Nor surprised, all operators are being hit badly. Any idea if Stagecoach also have pension funding issues ? (Actuarial valuation quite probably done at different times would confuse the figures)
 
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Volvodart

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All the ones I have seen have pension deficits, but not generally as big as the First ones. They have generally just been able to report a small profit after the pension deduction, but not always.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Nor surprised, all operators are being hit badly. Any idea if Stagecoach also have pension funding issues ? (Actuarial valuation quite probably done at different times would confuse the figures)

As of March 2016, Stagecoach had a £3.07bn pensions deficit. First had a £4bn deficit.

However, and before a certain poster gets too priapic about it, these both include their participation in the Railways Pensions Scheme so they have to pay in (and declare the liability) but they do not have a terminal liability.
 

ChathillMan

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overthewater

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As of March 2016, Stagecoach had a £3.07bn pensions deficit. First had a £4bn deficit.

However, and before a certain poster gets too priapic about it, these both include their participation in the Railways Pensions Scheme so they have to pay in (and declare the liability) but they do not have a terminal liability.

If that includes the trains then tech, Stagecoach Bus pension pot is doing far better? Has SWT been taken out of that, meaning it should be lower now?
 

Jordan Adam

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For a comparison of both the two major operators in North East Scotland.

First Aberdeen (First Aberdeen Ltd):
Turnover was £3,563,000 in the 2016/17 period.
Turnover was £1,881,000 in the 2017/18 period.

Stagecoach Bluebird (Bluebird Buses Ltd):
Turnover was £3,142,000 in the 2016/17 period.
Turnover was £1,732,000 in the 2017/18 period.
 
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47550

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For a comparison of both the two major operators in North East Scotland.

First Aberdeen (First Aberdeen Ltd):
Turnover was £3,563,000 in the 2016/17 period.
Turnover was £1,881,000 in the 2017/18 period.

Stagecoach Bluebird (Bluebird Buses Ltd):
Turnover was £3,142,000 in the 2016/17 period.
Turnover was £1,732,000 in the 2017/18 period.

Hi - I think these figures are retained profit (not turnover) and your years are not quite right.

First Aberdeen
Retained profit of £3563k in the year to March 16
Retained profit of £1881k in the year to March 17 (with turnover falling 8% from £29m to £27m)

Bluebird
Retained profit is £3142k in the year to April 16
Retained profit is £1732k in the year to April 17 (with turnover falling 14% from £34m to £29m)

Neither is a particularly great set of results though.
 

Jordan Adam

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Hi - I think these figures are retained profit (not turnover) and your years are not quite right.

First Aberdeen
Retained profit of £3563k in the year to March 16
Retained profit of £1881k in the year to March 17 (with turnover falling 8% from £29m to £27m)

Bluebird
Retained profit is £3142k in the year to April 16
Retained profit is £1732k in the year to April 17 (with turnover falling 14% from £34m to £29m)

Neither is a particularly great set of results though.

Ops, my mistake, I am in need of some good sleep to be honest!
 

Goldfish62

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TheGrandWazoo

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If that includes the trains then tech, Stagecoach Bus pension pot is doing far better? Has SWT been taken out of that, meaning it should be lower now?

I don't confess to be an expert but as Robert indicated, the fundamental point is knowing the difference between the terminal liability and the assets of any scheme.

As corporate bond yields are sensitive to interest rate increases, that erodes the net worth of the scheme and so First and Stagecoach are (like many firms) having to supplement the contributions to their DB schemes to counteract the shortfall. The problem across the UK economy has been summed up as "difficulties faced by employers, too, as their ability to invest in current staff and future growth is hampered by a requirement to continually top up a burdensome pension scheme."
 

Robertj21a

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I don't confess to be an expert but as Robert indicated, the fundamental point is knowing the difference between the terminal liability and the assets of any scheme.

As corporate bond yields are sensitive to interest rate increases, that erodes the net worth of the scheme and so First and Stagecoach are (like many firms) having to supplement the contributions to their DB schemes to counteract the shortfall. The problem across the UK economy has been summed up as "difficulties faced by employers, too, as their ability to invest in current staff and future growth is hampered by a requirement to continually top up a burdensome pension scheme."

Very true. I'm out of my depth with the detail of pension funds but I wonder if First Group has inherited (from mergers/acquisitions) more DB plans over their years than, say, Stagecoach. Indeed, have they each managed to streamline the respective funds into easily understandable single DB funds, or are they in reality a terrible mix of older schemes with varying terms (I have no idea, just wondering).
 

route101

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Anyone know why the 5 and 31 First Glasgow buses have gone single decker all of a sudden?
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Drivers have overwhelmingly voted against the proposed change to contract and conditions at First Aberdeen.

www.eveningexpress.co.uk/fp/news/local/unions-bus-drivers...

And in other news, the sun sets in the West. Now over to our local news team to discuss the toilet habits of the Ursa family.....

In all seriousness, you would have bet your house on it. I would've expected First would have anticipated such a result. Such is the environment of pay negs and TCE realignment etc.
 

Jordan Adam

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And in other news, the sun sets in the West. Now over to our local news team to discuss the toilet habits of the Ursa family.....

In all seriousness, you would have bet your house on it. I would've expected First would have anticipated such a result. Such is the environment of pay negs and TCE realignment etc.

Yea it was pretty safe to say they would vote against it. Unite have been busy rallying drivers up. I do wonder though, who in their right mind (4 people) would vote in favour of it. I know i wouldn't vote in favour of working longer hours for less pay!
 

Robertj21a

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Yea it was pretty safe to say they would vote against it. Unite have been busy rallying drivers up. I do wonder though, who in their right mind (4 people) would vote in favour of it. I know i wouldn't vote in favour of working longer hours for less pay!

Job security perhaps ?
 

GBM

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Yea it was pretty safe to say they would vote against it. Unite have been busy rallying drivers up. I do wonder though, who in their right mind (4 people) would vote in favour of it. I know i wouldn't vote in favour of working longer hours for less pay!
Also the thin end of a wedge. If Aberdeen voted for less pay and longer hours, First would roll this out to all depots. Many depots on far less pay anyway :frown:
 

DragonEast

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I have been musing on the Essex results. Why don't First pull the plug? It doesn't fit in with any other part of the business. They need capital and Chelmsford and Basildon depots are ideal housing sites which the local authorities need (possibly Hadleigh depot too). I think they own Basildon bus station too, and the town centre is ripe for some redevelopment. A transfer of the business is out of the question, not least, I suspect as they seem to overpay drivers compared to everyone else. (Cynically, why else would anyone work for them?)

In Colchester and Southend they're still after more than 20 years playing second fiddle to the former municipal operators (now Arriva) across the network. In any other provincial town as far as I can see things have settled down with a division of territory but not here, and in the Tendring peninsula have reached a draw (at best) with Hedingham (Go-Ahead). They'd not be missed. That being said I suspect they're all all doing better than mid-Essex (Chelmsford and Basildon) where they look a right pigs ear, and it's not looking to get any better with what looks liked a botched re-organisation (before it's even started). Couldn't Ensign be persuaded to take on the 100, and Southend/Canvey routes and the X30, or have First made an even worse hash of them? (Just on the X30 do the X1 changes due in Feb release a bus for the X30 which is the desperate rob Peter to pay Paul state that First are in?) Independent Stephensons have had their (new) depot at Boreham (a few miles outside Chelmsford), ready and waiting for over a decade. On ex-First routes (where they admit they couldn't make money) and a few tenders, they seem to make an operating profit in the order of £2m on £10 turnover, which must surely show how hapless First locally are. Even Uno who play second fiddle in Herts, with a poor network , and heavily reliant on tenders (like First), are no-where near as bad - and are improving apparently anyway having made the appropriate changes over the last 18 months which First haven't even started, probably let's face it, because they can't.

They couldn't sell the (worthless) operation I know, but surely they've demonstrated they can't run it with any prospect of earning a decent profit either? Whilst property prices are still booming in the south-east (unlike the rest of the country) at least they can cut their losses surely? The passengers would gladly see the back of them! It matters. They may be able to rescue some areas. But not Essex. It's too far gone. Irrespective of the state of the Pension Fund, or any accounting tricks. Even the anonymous management (whoever they are) keep mum and their heads below the parapet. Too ashamed, I hope. It speaks volumes. It's certainly embarrassing watching the Norwich customer service unit as they try their best, endlessly, to defend the indefensible with no help whatsoever. They surely ought to be spared the humiliation, too.
 
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TheGrandWazoo

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Yea it was pretty safe to say they would vote against it. Unite have been busy rallying drivers up. I do wonder though, who in their right mind (4 people) would vote in favour of it. I know i wouldn't vote in favour of working longer hours for less pay!

Some people don’t believe in strikes. Or they may believe that it is necessary to protect jobs
 

nesw

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Just wait until the detail of the First Essex changes are announced. I’ve seen some of them and I do wonder whether they have lost the plot.
 

overthewater

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Just wait until the detail of the First Essex changes are announced. I’ve seen some of them and I do wonder whether they have lost the plot.

When are there due to change? Can you say what's happening to the 71?
 

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