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First Group: General Discussion

nesw

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When are there due to change? Can you say what's happening to the 71?

Around the 18/2 so there should be something on Traveline in a few weeks and hopefully First website. I’ve only seen changes for the Brentwood area and one of the route changes is completely crazy as it’ll no longer serve (other than Sunday when ECC pay for it) a large part of a built up area that has good patronage. It’s supposed to make the service more reliable but there’s little evidence of that and they’ll certainly be reduced patronage.
I think First are past caring.
 
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Lezlee

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When are there due to change? Can you say what's happening to the 71?

The only changes to the 71 are a revised timetable to provide better spacing with the 70 between Marks Tey and Colchester, because the 70 is going to be half hourly instead of every 20 minutes.

All of the major changes take place from 18th February.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I have been musing on the Essex results. Why don't First pull the plug? It doesn't fit in with any other part of the business. They need capital and Chelmsford and Basildon depots are ideal housing sites which the local authorities need (possibly Hadleigh depot too).

They couldn't sell the (worthless) operation I know, but surely they've demonstrated they can't run it with any prospect of earning a decent profit either? Whilst property prices are still booming in the south-east (unlike the rest of the country) at least they can cut their losses surely? The passengers would gladly see the back of them! It matters. They may be able to rescue some areas. But not Essex. It's too far gone. Irrespective of the state of the Pension Fund, or any accounting tricks. Even the anonymous management (whoever they are) keep mum and their heads below the parapet. Too ashamed, I hope. It speaks volumes. It's certainly embarrassing watching the Norwich customer service unit as they try their best, endlessly, to defend the indefensible with no help whatsoever. They surely ought to be spared the humiliation, too.

I'd suspect that the cost of shutting down is substantially more than the money they'd make. Basildon may be ripe for redevelopment but I'd suggest that the Chelmsford site is zoned for industry so planning would be more difficult.

However, can you imagine the exit costs? How about the redundancy costs? Let alone the hit to the balance sheet? Also, note that whilst staff costs have remained largely the same, there is a reduction in consumable costs. There's £7.6m in other external charges and this has increased by an extra £1.6m and is outside the pensions issue. Money being funnelled back to the group? Perhaps First Essex isn't quite the basket case?

Stephensons results are pretty exceptional - making 20% op profit is almost unheard of these days.
 

route101

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To try and ease overcrowding on the Summerston runs. The 31 might be busy in the peaks, but the runs going Summerston way in constantly busy.

I noticed Geminis on the 7 . The 31 is a lot more uncomfortable now at peaks .
 

Lezlee

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16 Nov 2017
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First Essex is far from a lost cause, although looking over the last financials show an operating loss, it is in general a profitable company.

Short term, the route changes will have an immediate impact on costs. The decision to cascade stock, which otherwise wouldn't be used elsewhere across the First empire seems a prudent decision to make.

Long term, the rationalisation of depots, after investment costs, will start to pay off.

Whilst i'm not saying First Essex have issues, such as reliability and fleet presentation, I would hope they would start to address this as the pressure on PVR is reduced.

Looking in to my crystal ball, it would seem sensible to close the Braintree outstation and merge the Colchester & Clacton and even the Basildon & Hadleigh depots, whether it is using existing sites or building on new sites. Dead mileage could be mitigated by interworking routes, although this has the risk of compounding reliability issues.

Essex does need some dynamic leadership from a dynamic leader, as front line staff couldn't even tell you who is running the business, let alone anyone outside the company. Hardly the way to inspire confidence in the decisions that need to be made over time.
 

Cesarcollie

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First Essex is far from a lost cause, although looking over the last financials show an operating loss, it is in general a profitable company.

Short term, the route changes will have an immediate impact on costs. The decision to cascade stock, which otherwise wouldn't be used elsewhere across the First empire seems a prudent decision to make.

Long term, the rationalisation of depots, after investment costs, will start to pay off.

Whilst i'm not saying First Essex have issues, such as reliability and fleet presentation, I would hope they would start to address this as the pressure on PVR is reduced.

Looking in to my crystal ball, it would seem sensible to close the Braintree outstation and merge the Colchester & Clacton and even the Basildon & Hadleigh depots, whether it is using existing sites or building on new sites. Dead mileage could be mitigated by interworking routes, although this has the risk of compounding reliability issues.

Essex does need some dynamic leadership from a dynamic leader, as front line staff couldn't even tell you who is running the business, let alone anyone outside the company. Hardly the way to inspire confidence in the decisions that need to be made over time.

The route changes will lower costs - they will also of course lower revenue, and it's a case of whether they've got the balance right!! The risk of a reducing PVR is that whilst driver costs should come down, overhead costs remain the same (depots, managers, supervisors, schedulers etc). I'm not sure why reliability and fleet presentation will improve with a smaller PVR - unless they keep the same number of cleaners etc, thereby contradicting the objective of reduced costs!!

Closing Braintree is probably inevitable - I think it's only about 6 vehicles now anyway. Merging Clacton & Colchester is a non-starter. They're a long way apart!! The inter-urbans could run from Colchester, but I suspect such a merger would spell the end of the Clacton local network. Basildon and Hadleigh are closer, but traffic congestion in south Essex is horrendous, and the unreliability and extra drivers hours and miles you'd incur would probably make this a non-starter.
 

Lezlee

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The route changes will lower costs - they will also of course lower revenue, and it's a case of whether they've got the balance right!! The risk of a reducing PVR is that whilst driver costs should come down, overhead costs remain the same (depots, managers, supervisors, schedulers etc). I'm not sure why reliability and fleet presentation will improve with a smaller PVR - unless they keep the same number of cleaners etc, thereby contradicting the objective of reduced costs!!

Closing Braintree is probably inevitable - I think it's only about 6 vehicles now anyway. Merging Clacton & Colchester is a non-starter. They're a long way apart!! The inter-urbans could run from Colchester, but I suspect such a merger would spell the end of the Clacton local network. Basildon and Hadleigh are closer, but traffic congestion in south Essex is horrendous, and the unreliability and extra drivers hours and miles you'd incur would probably make this a non-starter.

It will be interesting to watch, the depot changes are just speculation of what could happen, before First would even consider abandoning the operation. However, First Essex have been known to close a network down along with the depot as they did in Braintree, but it would depend on how much the network contributes to the overall business. As I understand, the income from the Braintree services didn't justify the investment in the depot, and with the 70 being rationalised, the case for the Braintree outstation to remain becomes weaker.

Some back office staff are being reduced, such as controllers and supervisors, but not engineering or maintenance staff. I would expect reliability and presentation to improve even with a PVR reduction, as depot staff will have time and capacity to complete more preventative maintainence. Also some of the most unreliable (and unappealing) buses will be scrapped. The situation where PVR can't be made or where no spare buses are available to cover breakdowns, as is often the situation now, is certainly not sustainable. Whilst the PVR reduction won't help vehicle reliability and presentation long term as vehicles age, it will fix an immediate problem. Who knows, some of the cost savings may even be invested to refresh mid life vehicles, as they are doing with the route 100 vehicles!

Most of the changes I have seen are route changes, rather than reductions, so I wouldn't expect revenue to drop dramatically. The 41 will be covered for most of the route by 2 other routes and the same applies to the 72. Limited areas will be left without a service, namely a small part of the Chignall Estate in Chelmsford and a small part of Witham. In fact, some areas are receiving a better service! I'm not familiar with the north and south Essex town routes, so i'm not sure what impact there will be in these areas.

The challenge for First (which they haven't been proactive about so far) is to ensure the route changes are communicated well to passengers. Hopefully the communication will not be limited to a web article and social media.
 
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Bantamzen

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Ugh, my better half won't be happy about the 622/3/4 changes, she regularly uses them to get up to Eldwick from Shipley so that now means 3 buses from Baildon rather than 2. :(

Interesting though that a number of services around North West Leeds are having further timetable paddings because of ever increasing congestion. Its by no means a solely First WY problem, but Metro and Leeds Council need to get their thinking caps and work with operators on to try and work out some solutions for this little corner of the world. In recent weeks I've used the 33/33A/60* quite a bit and times are getting rapidly worse with just more and more traffic on the roads, this despite in recent years extra capacity in the peaks on Northern's services.

What I have noticed is that the First Weekly tickets seem to be a cause of delays to services, especially on Mondays when many passengers are renewing them. The time to print the ticket is negligible, especially with the new Ticketer machines, but putting them into their little wallets seems to eat up more of the driver's time than it ought. Perhaps then drivers should just be handing them over for the passengers to sort? Or better still maybe First need to push M & Smart tickets a bit harder to encourage those that can to but their rickets before travel to help ease dwell times a bit?

Plus for routes like the 33, is there really a need to send it into the outskirts of Westfield? Running straight on would save a few minutes in the peaks when traffic wholeheartedly refuses to let them back onto the A65. Also I would swap the 33A route via Yeadon with the 33, so that the former runs directly to Menston through Guiseley, whilst the 33 serves Yeadon and could terminate at Guiseley library. There are probably plenty of little ways the various stakeholders could explore, but every little helps?

(* I've only used the 60 once from Leeds to Shipley recently, and it took close to 100 minutes thanks to a combination of traffic, roadworks, and the lights around Kirkstall that seem to favour everything but the main flows of traffic. Still didn't beat the record 280 minutes in the opposite direction during floods in the Aire Valley a few years ago, 100 was bad but that had me losing the will to live!)

Edit: The above should say 180 mins, not 280!!!
 
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smtglasgow

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I’ve been using m-tickets for a few months now…with mixed results. I reckon the first strike rate (ie. the scanner reading the QR code on the first swipe) is about 30%. Usually takes a bit of moving it around and a few rejections before it is accepted. About 20% of the time it simply won’t scan and I’m nodded onto the bus by the driver with a resigned look. This seems to be par for the course and i’m not seeing the speedier boarding that m-tickets were supposed to bring. [although there are undoubtedly cost benefits for First in not selling paper tickets through agents or paypoint]
 

Bantamzen

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I’ve been using m-tickets for a few months now…with mixed results. I reckon the first strike rate (ie. the scanner reading the QR code on the first swipe) is about 30%. Usually takes a bit of moving it around and a few rejections before it is accepted. About 20% of the time it simply won’t scan and I’m nodded onto the bus by the driver with a resigned look. This seems to be par for the course and i’m not seeing the speedier boarding that m-tickets were supposed to bring. [although there are undoubtedly cost benefits for First in not selling paper tickets through agents or paypoint]

Are they the new Ticketer machines? I can't say I've noticed too many M-Tickets being used, but the QR codes on printed tickets do seem to read quickly and my MCard scans as fast if not faster as any other reader (and far quicker than Arriva Yorkshire's machines!).
 

smtglasgow

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Are they the new Ticketer machines? I can't say I've noticed too many M-Tickets being used, but the QR codes on printed tickets do seem to read quickly and my MCard scans as fast if not faster as any other reader (and far quicker than Arriva Yorkshire's machines!).

Yes, Glasgow has been using the new Ticketer machines for a few months now. Paper Day and Weekly tickets seem to work OK - only used a few day tickets, but they all scanned first time. Was convinced the problem was my phone at first (despite it being nearly new), but i'm seeing others with the same problems every day.

A possible problem is the fact that glasgow buses all have plastic bandit screens, so on some vehicles (older Tridents seem particularly bad) you have to contort yourself to get the phone under the scanner. Doesn't help that the app can be temperamental - i've had to reinstall it a couple of times. Hopefully it can be sorted out, it is essentally a good idea - but boarding seems to take as long as it ever did.
 

Bantamzen

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Yes, Glasgow has been using the new Ticketer machines for a few months now. Paper Day and Weekly tickets seem to work OK - only used a few day tickets, but they all scanned first time. Was convinced the problem was my phone at first (despite it being nearly new), but i'm seeing others with the same problems every day.

A possible problem is the fact that glasgow buses all have plastic bandit screens, so on some vehicles (older Tridents seem particularly bad) you have to contort yourself to get the phone under the scanner. Doesn't help that the app can be temperamental - i've had to reinstall it a couple of times. Hopefully it can be sorted out, it is essentally a good idea - but boarding seems to take as long as it ever did.

Ah, those screens don't help. Some of First Leeds Ticketers suffer the same fate, whilst others seem to have been positioned rather more sensibly. As for the app, stability does seem to be the issue with some, it really needs for devs and operators to concentrate efforts to make them stable before trying to add new features, redesigns etc. It is possible, I use plenty that work consistently well although it probably doesn't help with a constant stream of updates across all platforms at the moment.
 

Volvodart

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A possible problem is the fact that glasgow buses all have plastic bandit screens, so on some vehicles (older Tridents seem particularly bad) you have to contort yourself to get the phone under the scanner. Doesn't help that the app can be temperamental - i've had to reinstall it a couple of times. Hopefully it can be sorted out, it is essentally a good idea - but boarding seems to take as long as it ever did.

On some buses in Aberdeen someone of normal height cannot see the screen on the Ticketer to see what is happening without contorting themselves because of the bandit screen, and that is the modern buses.
 

F Great Eastern

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Republic of Ireland regulations are slightly different, so whilst the financial year is the same as the UK based accounts, the deadline for them is the end of January rather than end of December.

So I wouldn't expect to see anything for a week or two yet.
 

Robertj21a

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They have now been posted on Companies House website and yes they were the only one outstanding apart from Aircoach, Ireland.

Interestingly, First Beeline's Operating Profit went up quite significantly, from £272k (2016) to £931k. It seems that a massive drop in sales (of 11.3%) was more than offset by much reduced staff and fuel costs, due to lower mileage etc. This next financial year will, of course, see much reduced activity again due to the contracting network around Slough - I assume that the figures will be included within the First Hampshire & Dorset Accounts in future.
 

route101

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Yes, Glasgow has been using the new Ticketer machines for a few months now. Paper Day and Weekly tickets seem to work OK - only used a few day tickets, but they all scanned first time. Was convinced the problem was my phone at first (despite it being nearly new), but i'm seeing others with the same problems every day.

A possible problem is the fact that glasgow buses all have plastic bandit screens, so on some vehicles (older Tridents seem particularly bad) you have to contort yourself to get the phone under the scanner. Doesn't help that the app can be temperamental - i've had to reinstall it a couple of times. Hopefully it can be sorted out, it is essentally a good idea - but boarding seems to take as long as it ever did.

The problem i had was the app would freeze or not open up . Was annoying when quickly changing bus , some drivers let you off but others didnt .

Noticed 2 tridents on 31 yesterday , hoping thats the deckers back and common sense prevailed.
 

Volvodart

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The problem is the short time you get to activate the ticket, so the bus really needs to be there before you do. If they offered a reasonable time before, this problem would be alleviated.
 

route101

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The problem is the short time you get to activate the ticket, so the bus really needs to be there before you do. If they offered a reasonable time before, this problem would be alleviated.

Is it not 15 mins?
 

Non Multi

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Interestingly, First Beeline's Operating Profit went up quite significantly, from £272k (2016) to £931k. It seems that a massive drop in sales (of 11.3%) was more than offset by much reduced staff and fuel costs, due to lower mileage etc. This next financial year will, of course, see much reduced activity again due to the contracting network around Slough - I assume that the figures will be included within the First Hampshire & Dorset Accounts in future.
In September '16 there was the big route reorganisation in Slough. Late evening and weekend/Sunday services got culled, though many were carting around fresh air. Deeply unpopular changes with many passengers (mainly Heathrow workers who lost their direct buses), and it's reflected by the fall in sales. The bus war with Redline on the hospital shuttle route ended in defeat for First, so they now provide no service to Wexham Park.

I think they've done well considering route branding on buses was non existent (or out of date) at the time, as well as the continued decline in Slough town centre shopping.
 
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GaryMcEwan

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The problem i had was the app would freeze or not open up . Was annoying when quickly changing bus , some drivers let you off but others didnt .

Noticed 2 tridents on 31 yesterday , hoping thats the deckers back and common sense prevailed.

It's the Gemini's that have been put onto the 7/7A and not the Trident's. I've rarely seen a Trident on a 5. It makes sense for the deckers to be put on the 7s seeing as it's constantly busy. I've never seen the 31 busy even the in peak journeys.
 

Volvodart

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It depends what you consider busy and when. It should not be unusual to see standing passengers during the peaks.
 

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