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First Group: General Discussion

GaryMcEwan

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The funding is to give buses up to 13 years of age the emissions of Euro 6 buses. Not all buses will need done as they do not enter the city centre low emissions zone. 76 First Glasgow buses are currently Euro 6.

The majority of the ones that are currently not Euro 6 that come into the City Centre will need retrofitted. The LEZ map takes in most of Glasgow City Centre.
 
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Goldfish62

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Kernow won't prove their strategy, it's a completely different operating environment to any of First Urban ops. At best it will reduce Kernow's losses to break even or turn a small profit.
Kernow as a division of FSW, is making a profit, I understand. Remember that the FSW accounts include Somerset.

The investment in Cornwall is due to the council, not First. Had the council not come up with funding and formed a partnership with all bus operators plus GWR then First would have continued to show the same contempt for Cornwall as it had done up until a couple of years ago.
 

Volvodart

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The majority of the ones that are currently not Euro 6 that come into the City Centre will need retrofitted. The LEZ map takes in most of Glasgow City Centre.

The map provided for the council update which was referred to yesterday is a pretty small area of the city centre. There is currently 10 to 12% compliance.
 
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Robertj21a

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Kernow as a division of FSW, is making a profit, I understand. Remember that the FSW accounts include Somerset.

The investment in Cornwall is due to the council, not First. Had the council not come up with funding and formed a partnership with all bus operators plus GWR then First would have continued to show the same contempt for Cornwall as it had done up until a couple of years ago.

Is that council partnership time bound (5, 10 years etc) ?
Difficult to see how any council can commit for too long nowadays.
 

Goldfish62

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Is that council partnership time bound (5, 10 years etc) ?
Difficult to see how any council can commit for too long nowadays.
I'm not sure how formal the partnership is, but it's
Is that council partnership time bound (5, 10 years etc) ?
Difficult to see how any council can commit for too long nowadays.
It's more to do with pump priming investment in the public transport network after decades of decline. Details are here:

www.cornwall.gov.uk/transport-and-streets/public-transport/ongoing-developments/
 

overthewater

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I think the magic trick will happen. First will order 200 new buses over the the next four year. Then maybe in 2020 onwards bring in another 200 odd euro 6 buses from elsewhere. Then maybe retro fit the rest? Again it only useful if there do 12 plates or higher
 

GaryMcEwan

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Volvodart

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The area they are now proposing is smaller than that and does not go south of the river, for instance.
 

GaryMcEwan

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The area they are now proposing is smaller than that and does not go south of the river, for instance.

The updated map that STV News showed last night is broadly the same with a few streets cut off. It is still quite a big chunk of the city centre that's going to be affected.

33m3f9e.png
 

winston270twm

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Kernow as a division of FSW, is making a profit, I understand. Remember that the FSW accounts include Somerset.

The investment in Cornwall is due to the council, not First. Had the council not come up with funding and formed a partnership with all bus operators plus GWR then First would have continued to show the same contempt for Cornwall as it had done up until a couple of years ago.

Ah, so First can't even take the credit for that project. Even if Kernow is now making a profit, it will only be a relatively small due to it's fleet size and geographical operating characteristics.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Ah, so First can't even take the credit for that project. Even if Kernow is now making a profit, it will only be a relatively small due to it's fleet size and geographical operating characteristics.

The devolution deal that Cornwall got provides additional funding for bus services and infrastructure. Go Ahead and First are committed to providing new vehicles as a means to avoiding franchising.

However, the level of investment is rather exceptional irrespective of whoever is the operator. The investment last year was onto those routes that could realistically be expected to have new or modern fleet (and have in the past). This year is something else! However, don’t believe that Kernow Council are funding the vehicles.
 

Robertj21a

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I'm not sure how formal the partnership is, but it's

It's more to do with pump priming investment in the public transport network after decades of decline. Details are here:

www.cornwall.gov.uk/transport-and-streets/public-transport/ongoing-developments/

Many thanks for that. I hadn't appreciated that it was all part of the Cornwall Devolution Deal. It was particularly interesting to note that apx £50m has been allocated to create an integrated public transport system, including bus, rail and ferry:-

http://www.cornwall.gov.uk/communit...-devolution/devolution/devolution-to-cornwall
 

overthewater

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First, Mcgill and Stagecoach will managed to get Euro 6 by 2022. Coaches on Stagecoach Express and citylink are due for replacement by that point anyways. Mcgills just need to get some newer stock for the 3's and 26's. With First 838 fleet, only 100 is Euro 6? I still think at least 300 new buses will appear and cast offs from bristol in 2022 :D So please look after them ;)
 

overthewater

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The frequencies on most city services have improved since the 2000s and now that they've altered the services i'd say they carried more in 2017 than they did in the years previous. Aberdeen's in a tough time at the moment as there's lots of congestion and delays due to AWPR works. Myself and many others in the area suspect the bus services will heavily improve once AWPR and Broad Street open as running time will pretty significantly reduced freeing up more resources.

On a side note First Aberdeens fare have not went up that much or at all. Adult day ticket was £4 a decade ago, it's still £4. A child day was £2.70, it's now £2.50.

Anyway isn't this a little off topic for here... :s

I moved the reply to this thread. Cheers for the explanations, I hope so to, I hope it opens at the end of the years. I still found it strange how the old 5 has disappeared and replace with hourly 8 and and the more freq 18. Dubford and kingswell seem to be much tougher nuts to crack
 

Jordan Adam

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I moved the reply to this thread. Cheers for the explanations, I hope so to, I hope it opens at the end of the years. I still found it strange how the old 5 has disappeared and replace with hourly 8 and and the more freq 18. Dubford and kingswell seem to be much tougher nuts to crack

Thanks for that.

Dubford currently are on 5 buses per hour. Away to drop to 3. The withdrawal of the 5 six years ago put pressure on the 12 and 23 both of which have since increased in frequency. In Bridge Of Don the only people who used the 5 were those going to ARI or those in the Whitestripes area as the 5 was deemed too slow. Whitestripes has higher car use than the areas around it and it also has a ageing population (The old gold Service 7/7A was meant to tackle the issue of high care use in that area).

The new 8A effectively mirrors mirrors the 5 between Dubford and ARI but it's only 1 run per day, First have said they hope to increase it. The 18 didn't replace anything, all it really done was allowed the 19 to go down in frequency (Every 12 > 15 Mins).

What they should have do is keep the 8 half hourly to replace the 9 and then time it with the 20 to give Dubford a 15 minute frequency. Evenings and Sundays they should each operate hourly giving a half hourly services to Dubford and hourly to Whitestripes and Denmore. It's more a coincidence than anything else that the 8/9 and X40 (soon 8 and 20) take about the same time to go from Town to Dubford despite taking totally different routes.

The 8A could be operated by 1 bus off peak giving a hourly frequency, with extra buses at peaks to make it half hourly.

As for Kingswells well that's a totally different situation. First quite rightly withdrew services from there after years of loss making. Although stuff is being done to give them a direct 7 day service operating from morning to late at night.

The new tenders for the Kingswells (All days), Dubford (Sundays) and Airyhall (Evenings) services are due to be announced on the 26th of March. They were due to start on the 2nd of April but this has been pushed back to the end of April, as such the current tenders have been extended. It's highly suspected first will win all 3 tenders with the Airyhall one simply being a re-tender of the current service.
 

overthewater

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Lots hope there is a First in Aberdeen by the end of this strike.. . There could end up in the bin.
 

Jordan Adam

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The strikes and new contracts have been made to look far worse than they are thanks to the press and false speculation.

Over 40% of drivers are already on the new contracts and they in reality just bring First Aberdeen drivers in line with Stagecoach and First drivers elsewhere. Aberdeen drivers have got special treatment for a number of years (even decades) due to it being the HQ (Well according to the sign outside, but that's a different matter!). Now Andrew Jarvis and a more centralised management team are at the helm stuff are being evened out so that Aberdeen take their fair share. While i don't agree with taking away the drivers benefits, i can fully understand why it's being done.

It's just lots of hyping up something to make it look far worse than it is! As for drivers moving to Stagecoach, well i can tell you only 2 drivers have left!

I'll wait for someone stuck in the 1970s to start hurtling abuse for me not being a Guinea Pig!

The only way we're going to see an end to these consistent cuts is once the gov start allowing local councils to have more spending on public transport. After all the only way to solve pollution (in my opinion) is by getting more and more people on public transport. Putting Low Emissions Zones in that also affect buses are not going to help much. We need more bus priority and less city centre parking.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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The strikes and new contracts have been made to look far worse than they are thanks to the press and false speculation.

Over 40% of drivers are already on the new contracts and they in reality just bring First Aberdeen drivers in line with Stagecoach and First drivers elsewhere. Aberdeen drivers have got special treatment for a number of years (even decades) due to it being the HQ (Well according to the sign outside, but that's a different matter!). Now Andrew Jarvis and a more centralised management team are at the helm stuff are being evened out so that Aberdeen take their fair share. While i don't agree with taking away the drivers benefits, i can fully understand why it's being done.

It's just lots of hyping up something to make it look far worse than it is! As for drivers moving to Stagecoach, well i can tell you only 2 drivers have left!

I'll wait for someone stuck in the 1970s to start hurtling abuse for me not being a Guinea Pig!

The only way we're going to see an end to these consistent cuts is once the gov start allowing local councils to have more spending on public transport. After all the only way to solve pollution (in my opinion) is by getting more and more people on public transport. Putting Low Emissions Zones in that also affect buses are not going to help much. We need more bus priority and less city centre parking.

No abuse from this quarter.

Last paragraph was on the money and good to see some reasoned, qualified analysis on the strike.
 

overthewater

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I would love to agree, but I doubt local councils would spend more money on public transport. In 2007 when the SNP come along, there pushed out the BRDG ( Bus route development grant scheme ) to the councils, at this point in time there still had money to burn for a few more years. Let's just say the results were rather poor and only three council bother to keep it going....

Also why would Drivers move to Stagecoach? If First are trying to change the t&C to match stagecoach then those people are off their trolleys.
 

Jordan Adam

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I would love to agree, but I doubt local councils would spend more money on public transport. In 2007 when the SNP come along, there pushed out the BRDG ( Bus route development grant scheme ) to the councils, at this point in time there still had money to burn for a few more years. Let's just say the results were rather poor and only three council bother to keep it going....

Also why would Drivers move to Stagecoach? If First are trying to change the t&C to match stagecoach then those people are off their trolleys.

Ironically i'd say the period of 2008 to 2010 was the worst for infrequent local services being cut. It's also when use at Aberdeen's Park & Ride sites dropped and then frequency started to drop till it got to an all time low in 2012.. At one point there wasn't a direct service to the city centre from Kingswells P&R.

As for why those drivers would move to Stagecoach. Well your guess is as good as mine!
 

Volvodart

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Also why would Drivers move to Stagecoach? If First are trying to change the t&C to match stagecoach then those people are off their trolleys.
With regard to pension entitlement, if they have long service it would be extremely unwise.
 

overthewater

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The new tenders for the Kingswells (All days), Dubford (Sundays) and Airyhall (Evenings) services are due to be announced on the 26th of March. They were due to start on the 2nd of April but this has been pushed back to the end of April, as such the current tenders have been extended. It's highly suspected first will win all 3 tenders with the Airyhall one simply being a re-tender of the current service.

Have you seen those tender specs?

Kingswell:
Timetable: 35
Monday to Saturday: the service must operate between 06:00 to 23:00, with a minimum thirty minute frequency at peak-times (07:00 – 09:00 / 16:00 – 18:00) and a minimum hourly frequency at off-peak times.
Sunday: the service must operate between 08:00 and 22:00, with a minimum hourly frequency.
The operator will be responsible for providing an operating timetable.

Vehicle:

Minimum seating capacity: 29 seats.
A low floor, wheelchair accessible vehicle shall be used on this service.
Primary vehicles to be used on the service shall be of as a minimum engine emissions standard of Euro V. Details of replacement vehicles for business continuity to be detailed in the mission statement.





Dubford/Denmore and : Craigiebuckler/Airyhall Evening Bus Service

Vehicle:
Minimum seating capacity: 16 seats.
A low floor, wheelchair accessible vehicle shall be used on this service.
Primary vehicles to be used on the service shall be of as a minimum engine emissions standard of Euro V. Details of replacement vehicles for business continuity to be detailed in the mission statement.

Other Information:
Service vehicle shall have illuminated destination blinds programmed to show the destination and route number. Paper style blinds will also be accepted on the condition that suitable blind scrolls are printed up in advance of service start and that they are illuminated during the hours of darkness and during any conditions of poor visibility.
Paper notices, hand written blind scrolls or unlit boards placed in the vehicle windscreen are not acceptable.
 

overthewater

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Oh yea! First question is:

* Current service to kingswell is nowhere near as good as this contract is, Question has to be how did there manage to get such a big improvement? Would it not be better to have a shuttle to the park n ride?
* Does First Aberdeen have any small Euro 5 darts in the depot?
* "Other Information:" What other companies could have bidded for the work?
 

Jordan Adam

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Oh yea! First question is:

* Current service to kingswell is nowhere near as good as this contract is, Question has to be how did there manage to get such a big improvement? Would it not be better to have a shuttle to the park n ride?
* Does First Aberdeen have any small Euro 5 darts in the depot?
* "Other Information:" What other companies could have bidded for the work?

I'm not sure if you're aware but Central Coaches currently operate a 94/X94 between Kingswells, Kingswells P&R and ARI, Stagecoach also have an evening variation "94A". Both of these will end on the 28th of April. (Registrations have already went through the TC)

The issue currently is that the service they have just now doesn't serve the City centre. Passengers are required to wait at the Park & Ride for the X17. The new service would be less frequent off peak but it serves the city centre directly so that doesn't matter too much.

First don't have any small Euro 5 buses but there's nothing that would stop the use of a full size bus (Keep in mind the seating listed is a minimum not a maximum). Out of anything a full size bus is ideal as it's suspected the new route (Many think it will be an extension of the 8) would take passengers from the 23.

It's not fully known who has placed bids for the work other than First and possibly Stagecoach. The fact it would require a Euro 5 bus rules all the independents out, also none of the independents would have enough buses to cover the PVR. Stagecoach have said a number of times that they are not interested in giving Kingswells a service in to town, in addition they are wanting to downsize their PVR at Aberdeen.

As i say above First extending the 8 is the suspected winner and would be the most logical as it can be done with only 1 extra bus. Any other route would require more than 1 bus and long layover times.
 

Cesarcollie

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I'm not sure if you're aware but Central Coaches currently operate a 94/X94 between Kingswells, Kingswells P&R and ARI, Stagecoach also have an evening variation "94A". Both of these will end on the 28th of April. (Registrations have already went through the TC)

The issue currently is that the service they have just now doesn't serve the City centre. Passengers are required to wait at the Park & Ride for the X17. The new service would be less frequent off peak but it serves the city centre directly so that doesn't matter too much.

First don't have any small Euro 5 buses but there's nothing that would stop the use of a full size bus (Keep in mind the seating listed is a minimum not a maximum). Out of anything a full size bus is ideal as it's suspected the new route (Many think it will be an extension of the 8) would take passengers from the 23.

It's not fully known who has placed bids for the work other than First and possibly Stagecoach. The fact it would require a Euro 5 bus rules all the independents out, also none of the independents would have enough buses to cover the PVR. Stagecoach have said a number of times that they are not interested in giving Kingswells a service in to town, in addition they are wanting to downsize their PVR at Aberdeen.

As i say above First extending the 8 is the suspected winner and would be the most logical as it can be done with only 1 extra bus. Any other route would require more than 1 bus and long layover times.

Why does the Euro 5 requirement or 'not enough buses' rule out the independents? Subject to having capacity on their O Licence, they would simply buy or lease appropriate vehicles if they won the contract?
 

Volvodart

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http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/..._will_hike_fares_if_emissions_plan_is_rushed/

First Bus Glasgow warns of fares rise if emissions plan is rushed
Stewart Paterson @PatersonHT

PLANS to force bus firms to replace buses with new low emission vehicles will lead to a fares hike as they are rushed, according to First Bus.

Glasgow City Council’s environment committee is meeting today to discuss its plans for a Low Emission Zone in the city centre. It is likely to mean all buses will need to meet strict emissions standards by the end of 2022 to enter the city centre.

Glasgow’s biggest bus operator wants more time and said anything quicker than five years to comply would likely see costs passed on to passengers.


The changes could cost First Bus alone up to almost £100m for new buses and retro-fitting newer buses to bring them up to standard.

Asked if it will mean fares increases, Andrew Jarvis, First Bus managing director, said: “If the requirement for upgrade is any shorter than five years from December 31, 2018 then there is likely to be additional costs which the company will have to fund, potentially through such measures.”

Bus firms also want cars to be subject to the tougher standards as well as buses and at the same time.

First Bus said it backs moves to improve air quality but singling out buses for enforcement is unfair.

The firm, which has more than 700 buses on the road in the city, said cars are the biggest polluter.

Mr Jarvis, said: “We are fully behind moves to improve the air quality in the city, but any restrictions should apply to all modes and not just buses.

“As the city’s largest bus operator, we are concerned that these measures are only aimed at buses and not the number one cause of pollution on our roads, cars.

“The focus being only on bus is unfair given that it is the only form of road transport capable of reducing congestion and improving air quality on the city’s roads.”

First said it will cost almost £100m to meet the standards for 700 buses as older buses will need to be replaced costing £80m and others upgraded at a cost of up to £17m.

Glasgow will be the first city in Scotland to introduce a Low Emission Zone.

The Greens said pollution in Glasgow is shocking and the council must be more ambitious in its plans. They want the new standards to be brought in within two years and for all other vehicles to be included in a second phase. The confederation of Passenger Transport, which represents the bus industry, said private cars should not be given a free pass while buses have to upgrade.

A spokesman said: “Any Low Emission Zone that focuses solely on buses limits its ability to deliver real air quality improvements. Bus and coach accounts for less than five per cent of road based emissions while cars account for over 50 per cent.

“Forcing compliance from the bus sector while giving other vehicles a free pass for another four years is entirely counter-intuitive and risks damaging Glasgow’s bus network at a time when we should be heralding public transport as a solution to the city’s air pollution problem.”

The regulations need to be phased in to allow bus firms to meet the standards according to the council.

By the start of next year, 20 per cent of buses will need to meet the standards, increasing gradually to 100 per cent compliance by 2023.

700 would appear to be the number of new and upgraded buses. The number of new buses seems to be around the number of buses that would need replacing by new or newer buses by then anyway. With the Glasgow fleet age profile, theoretically they should be buying at least 50 new buses a year anyway and there are six financial years' orders there, so the actual additional new bus numbers are relatively not that great, and presumably there will be some funding available for new buses as well as the upgrade.
 

mde

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In today's Evening Times…
http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/...ked_to_go_to_Aberdeen_to_cover_during_strike/

BUS drivers in Glasgow are being asked to travel to Aberdeen to cover services during a strike.

First Bus drivers in the Granite City are striking over changes to their pay and conditions this week.

Union officials said the firm is drafting in staff and managers from Glasgow and elsewhere to cover shifts.

The local union representative said financial incentives were being offered while the company said only accommodation and expenses were being met.

Union leaders said First was “offering big pay outs” to bus drivers to go to Aberdeen.

Mike Flynn, Unite Aberdeen branch convenor, said: “There are drivers coming here from Glasgow.

“We know of at least eight and another 14 or so managers and supervisors from Glasgow driving buses in Aberdeen during the strike.

“They are being put up in nice hotels in the city centre and given £25 a day in allowances. We know there will be other enhancements thrown in as well.

“To have union members doing this disappoints us immensely. This is a bona fide strike and these people are crossing picket lines to make money. They have no scruples to come here and work while colleagues are on strike to protect their pay and conditions.

“If management dangle a carrot in front of some people they will bite.”

First said staff had been brought in to keep services running.

Andrew Jarvis, Managing Director for First Aberdeen: “To reduce inconvenience to customers whilst the strike action takes place, we have welcomed managers, supervisors, inspectors and office staff from other First Bus businesses who have travelled from our sister companies across the UK to assist us in keeping the network operational. These colleagues have been paid travel, training and time worked for providing this cover.

“I would like to thank everyone for their efforts in keeping our buses running during this period and we will continue to use all available resources including senior team members from the business behind the wheel’ driving and looking after our passengers.”
 

overthewater

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What the point? The staff that have been sent up have to stay ALL week because how the strike has played out. There no point traveling all the way down on off day because those members of staff will get a few hours at home before having to go back up. I doubt it costing First much, since there money saved from the striker will go towards these members of staff.



http://www.eveningtimes.co.uk/news/..._will_hike_fares_if_emissions_plan_is_rushed/
700 would appear to be the number of new and upgraded buses. The number of new buses seems to be around the number of buses that would need replacing by new or newer buses by then anyway. With the Glasgow fleet age profile, theoretically they should be buying at least 50 new buses a year anyway and there are six financial years' orders there, so the actual additional new bus numbers are relatively not that great, and presumably there will be some funding available for new buses as well as the upgrade.

Sounds to me First are playing up, surly there not going to carry on not putting in the investment? 300 is about what I expect in new stock aswell, with the rest coming from cast off from elsewhere around the UK between 2020-2022.
 

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