First Group: General Discussion

[overthewater]

Could First just say sod it were going as a threat? How can this be sorted?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-43494598

Aberdeen bus drivers have threatened to escalate their strike action.

Members of the Unite union at First Aberdeen have already staged a series of one-day strikes in a dispute over changes to pay and conditions. Now they have agreed in principle to hold three or four weeks' continuous strike action starting early next month. A week-long stoppage is already scheduled to start next week. The company has insisted the contract changes are necessary. Unite says safety will be compromised as drivers will be asked to work longer shifts.

Following a mass meeting of drivers at which the proposed escalation was agreed, First Bus said it was "extremely disappointed" by the decision. Andrew Jarvis, managing director for First Aberdeen, said: "We await formal notification of this from Unite to detail the exact dates of any further action, but focus now will turn to planning to deliver services on our network as much as we possibly can to keep our customers moving and limit the disruption.

"We are disappointed that despite significant improvements to the original offer being proposed to Unite and their members at the end of the previous set of talks, this was still not enough to bring an end to the dispute.

"We remain open to talks with our Unite the Union colleagues and hopefully they will re-engage with us on this matter in a bid to bring an end to the industrial action which we recognise is having an impact on our customers."

 

[Robertj21a]

Could First just say sod it were going as a threat? How can this be sorted?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-43494598

It gives First Bus an easy excuse in about 12 months time to say that the operation has had a bad couple of years and is no longer viable. No point in anyone bothering to buy it with Stagecoach on the doorstep, just 'do a Northampton'.

 

[overthewater]

It gives First Bus an easy excuse in about 12 months time to say that the operation has had a bad couple of years and is no longer viable. No point in anyone bothering to buy it with Stagecoach on the doorstep, just 'do a Northampton'.

No chance would That be allowed surly? wouldn't the competition commission say no?

 

[Robertj21a]

No chance would That be allowed surly? wouldn't the competition commission say no?

Nothing for them to investigate. If Stagecoach don't do anything and just allow Aberdeen to gradually wither away (just like Northampton), they will be able to just pick up any worthwhile discarded routes as and when First throw in the towel.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Gents - aren't we getting a little carried away here? This is a dispute and there will be a measure of posturing from both sides (as is usually the case).

In Weymouth, First didn't close the depot allowing Damory to have all the routes? Arriva didn't vacate Merseyside when the strike was on there.

 

[90sWereBetter]

Gents - aren't we getting a little carried away here? This is a dispute and there will be a measure of posturing from both sides (as is usually the case).

Some posters seem to get their kicks speculating and talking up unsubstantiated rumours about First. It's pretty sad really, especially those who apparently want Tim O'Toole to lose his job. :/

 

[overthewater]

Some posters seem to get their kicks speculating and talking up unsubstantiated rumours about First. It's pretty sad really, especially those who apparently want Tim O'Toole to lose his job. :/

I asked a question,

Could First just say sod it were going as a threat? How can this be sorted?

Yet no one answered it. I never said anything about Tim. let just tar the same brush.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I asked a question,



Yet no one answered it. I never said anything about Tim. let just tar the same brush.

No but you did say...

Lots hope there is a First in Aberdeen by the end of this strike.. . There could end up in the bin.

You’re flapping. These things are often a complex series of positioning moves from both sides!

 

[overthewater]

4 week non stop strike? That will cause a lot of damage

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

4 week non stop strike? That will cause a lot of damage

That's IF it goes ahead. As is often the case, there is a lot of positioning and that is from both sides. The management will look not to seem to weak to the union, and conversely, the union will also try to look tough.

Why weren't you so vociferous about the damage to Arriva Merseyside with the strike there?

Don't get me wrong. It is a serious issue but all this talk of First Aberdeen possibly being "in the bin" - that's no good for First nor for the drivers. Both sides have a lot to lose so I'd imagine that some sort of resolution will come about.

 

[overthewater]

Why weren't you so vociferous about the damage to Arriva Merseyside with the strike there?

Thats a good question, I like that. To be fair, there could be a number of reason:

* This is double edge sword question, because If I did, i've could of be told off for making comments about an area I've never visited. Either way I won't be visiting the granite city again unless the strikes are finished.
* I didn't release how bad the strike was, I ever looked at back at the threads and found this: https://www.railforums.co.uk/thread...eyside-greater-manchster-and-cheshire.155548/ It's actully as bad Aberdeen.
* It was Arriva so who cares? That seems to be part of the problem as mentioned before on here.

 

[DragonEast]

Yeah all fair comment. But to me First don't seem to help themselves with us just had Giles' twaddle about buses have never had a brighter future . . . The people who have to face this twaddle daily are the staff, the rest of the world ignores it (or falls about laughing at another piece of First stand up, or the soap opera, at best) - apart from those on here, where insanity is a requirement. As usual the other operators though don't seem quite so adept at offering themselves as a hostage to fortune.

Buses are a declining industry (for something different see London City or the Cambridge Science Parks and see how many strikes they have). If buses have never had a brighter future you don't go cutting our emoluments. Bus drivers have always been like kids (as in fairness with any gang of so-called "adults"). Just try cutting the kids pocket money if you want all hell to break loose (well, if we can remember that far back)! I think of it as the Aberdeen bus drivers' Brexit, when in a hole keep digging. Situation normal, nothing to write home about. Give it time and someone will, as granny used to say "come to their bleedin' senses". Whether too late, who knows and, frankly, in the bigger scheme of things, who cares? The pantomine came late this year.

 

[Volvodart]

That's IF it goes ahead. As is often the case, there is a lot of positioning and that is from both sides. The management will look not to seem to weak to the union, and conversely, the union will also try to look tough.

You are not wrong there. Obviously there is a new MD so the Union will be seeing what they can get away with. The main Union rep. at First Aberdeen who has been successful over the years retired last week, so First may also be seeing what they can get away with. Remember the Union was successful in getting First to back down when they tried this about 6 years ago.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Relating to Aberdeen i'd say Stagecoach over all are in a less predictable position. They've cut every corner of their network quite significantly. (Frequencies on parts dropping from every 10/15 minutes to hourly). With rail enhancements coming next year it's only going to get worse. They're really going to have a tough time if they want to cope.

All the while the city is growing fast which offers new options for First (Just look at the massive success of re-routing and extending the 18).

The Stagecoach management here do seem to be more "able" at doing the job though, good marketing too. There are some very dodgy repaints though with angles rather than curves! I can't see them expanding in Aberdeen as it's very hard for Stagecoach to grow a new city route (9U and X18 being good examples), because the public view them as the "Country bus", A view that's very unlikely to change. In addition the drivers never made an effort to take new passengers and would often drive past stops if another bus was there.

 

[GusB]

The Stagecoach management here do seem to be more "able" at doing the job though, good marketing too. There are some very dodgy repaints though with angles rather than curves! I can't see them expanding in Aberdeen as it's very hard for Stagecoach to grow a new city route (9U and X18 being good examples), because the public view them as the "Country bus", A view that's very unlikely to change. In addition the drivers never made an effort to take new passengers and would often drive past stops if another bus was there.

Some years ago I used to travel into town from Tillydrone, and it was often more cost effective for me to walk up to Woodside and catch the bus from the stop at the top of Don Street (I had a "New Deal" bus pass which gave me 50% off GRT, but 80% off Stagecoach fares, and collected "bus points" as well). Stagecoach would sail past unless a clear signal was given, when GRT would stop anyway.

I find it quite amusing that 30+ years since de-regulation that the two companies are viewed as the "toon" buses and the "country" buses. Of course in the past, there was the branded "CityBus" operation, but cutting back that network of services was one of the first things Stagecoach did after taking over Bluebird. With First in its current predicament, perhaps it would be a good time for Stagecoach to do a re-launch, especially as they seem to be cutting back services in the Shire.

 

[smtglasgow]

First aren’t going anywhere. Yes, they’re going to take a hit from the strikes, and that might mean cuts down the line, but Aberdeen is a profitable operation. Perhaps not as profitable as First management believe it could be, but Aberdeen isn’t the city it was a decade ago. The changes in t&c reflect the turnaround in the local economy, but the unions are perfectly within their rights to defend their members interests – it’s their reason for existing. A settlement will emerge – probably sooner rather later – and both sides will claim victory. But to extrapolate from this that First will pull out is hysterical nonsense.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Some years ago I used to travel into town from Tillydrone, and it was often more cost effective for me to walk up to Woodside and catch the bus from the stop at the top of Don Street (I had a "New Deal" bus pass which gave me 50% off GRT, but 80% off Stagecoach fares, and collected "bus points" as well). Stagecoach would sail past unless a clear signal was given, when GRT would stop anyway.

I find it quite amusing that 30+ years since de-regulation that the two companies are viewed as the "toon" buses and the "country" buses. Of course in the past, there was the branded "CityBus" operation, but cutting back that network of services was one of the first things Stagecoach did after taking over Bluebird. With First in its current predicament, perhaps it would be a good time for Stagecoach to do a re-launch, especially as they seem to be cutting back services in the Shire.

Fares in Aberdeen really vary. The company that proves better value for money really varies on your exact journey and what you need. For example the FirstDay (£4) offers better value that Stagecoach's DayRider (£3.50) because it offers a significantly larger network of services and covers far more area. But for singles fares it's a bit all over the place. Generally first prove cheaper again but it depends how many stages you're travelling and what type of passenger you are (Child, Student or Adult). In addition to that if you lived at Woodend and just needed to go between there and the city centre you could use the X17 and only pay £12 for a weekly ticket. But you'd be limited. As i say, the First Day,Week and Month tickets cost more because they offer more. In effect you get what you paid for.

For the best value for money i just go for the Zone 1 Grasshopper as it gets you on every public service in the city and is only £4.20.

First aren’t going anywhere. Yes, they’re going to take a hit from the strikes, and that might mean cuts down the line, but Aberdeen is a profitable operation. Perhaps not as profitable as First management believe it could be, but Aberdeen isn’t the city it was a decade ago. The changes in t&c reflect the turnaround in the local economy, but the unions are perfectly within their rights to defend their members interests – it’s their reason for existing. A settlement will emerge – probably sooner rather later – and both sides will claim victory. But to extrapolate from this that First will pull out is hysterical nonsense.

You're spot on pretty much. These whole First are pulling out of Aberdeen rumours are nonsense.

To be fair i'd say the network is in a better state than it was a decade ago. Comparing some of Stagecoach's timetables from 5 - 10 years ago to the ones on offer now is rather shocking!

 

[overthewater]

I still like to know how a rumor has come about after I asked the question for the management using that as a threat to get its own way?

 

[Robertj21a]

I still like to know how a rumor has come about after I asked the question for the management using that as a threat to get its own way?

You might have to explain that in plain English (or even Scots....). I, for one, don't understand.

 

[overthewater]

At the top of the page, I wrote " Could First just say sod it were going as a threat?" Ie dirty tactic to get its own way. Then somehow its now rumor there might leave. My question was would there dare do it? I cant see Mr Javis backing down over this.

 

[Jordan Adam]

At the top of the page, I wrote " Could First just say sod it were going as a threat?" Ie dirty tactic to get its own way. Then somehow its now rumor there might leave. My question was would there dare do it? I cant see Mr Javis backing down over this.

There's been "rumours" spread on Facebook by an Ex-Stagecoach employee who has little knowledge of the North Scotland Area, never mind Aberdeen!

Remember, everything you read on Facebook is 100% true 100% of the time :P

 

[Dentonian]

At the top of the page, I wrote " Could First just say sod it were going as a threat?" Ie dirty tactic to get its own way. Then somehow its now rumor there might leave. My question was would there dare do it? I cant see Mr Javis backing down over this.

Perhaps better spelling and punctuation might help; rumor is an American word, not English, btw. I don't intend scrolling back through dozens of replies, but did someone say it was to be a "4 week strike", or was that just speculation that an "all out" strike could last four weeks if necessary? I know other industries have seen long all out strikes, but I don't recall anything like such disruption ever being visited on bus passengers in the UK.

 

[overthewater]

It from this link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-43494598 which was postage above, ( since this is the second time, there is no need to quote)

 

[Dentonian]

It from this link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-43494598 which was postage above, ( since this is the second time, there is no need to quote)

OK. thanks. Worrying times for car less Aberdonians, unless they have Stagecoach services within reasonable walking distance.

 

[Jordan Adam]

It from this link: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-43494598 which was postage above, ( since this is the second time, there is no need to quote)

That rumour is true. But it won't be possible to know if it will go ahead until later next week.

 

[Jordan Adam]

OK. thanks. Worrying times for car less Aberdonians, unless they have Stagecoach services within reasonable walking distance.

There's still some level of service and Stagecoach are providing extra runs on their services that closely mirror First routes. But the Stagecoach city network is limited so there's only so much they can do. 3 of the Tridents on loan from Inverness (18000, 18061 and 18067) are due to return back tomorrow as they'll no longer be required this week as First will be offering an increased level of service.

 

[robertclark125]

What are the service levels First are providing on strike days?

 

[Jordan Adam]

What are the service levels First are providing on strike days?

You can view the timetables here

It should be noted that additional buses will run (if available) that are not included in the timetables.

 

[Volvodart]

Monday to Friday, most routes every 30 minutes, half hour routes generally hourly, hourly routes no service, but there are exceptions like the every 20 minutes 18 and X40 being every hour and the 16 which is ending at the end of next week has no service (route 17 covers the part of the route that normally gets passengers). Additional services (mostly part route) run on most 30 minute frequency services in the morning peak and later in the day on some services. The 1 and 1A have extra runs for the students going and coming from RGU. Some services have a 2 hour (plus) break in the middle of the day, some routes have the service reduced to hourly then, plus short workings to get the buses from and to the depot.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I still like to know how a rumor has come about after I asked the question for the management using that as a threat to get its own way?

Well, on this board, it was you who raised the prospect of some sort of existential threat to First Aberdeen....

Lots hope there is a First in Aberdeen by the end of this strike.. . There could end up in the bin.

Also, saying "I was just asking a question" is hardly an excuse, in the same way that anyone can merely say they were repeating a rumour. As others and myself have said, the statements from the management are to be expected. Likewise, the threat from the union of a potential three or four week strike is also to be expected. The reality is that some sort of backing down will come from both sides, allowing both to claim some sort of victory.