FirstGroup: Operations improvement, Shares and Survival

Discussion in 'Buses & Coaches' started by overthewater, 23 May 2012.

  1. TAS

    TAS Member

    Messages:
    160
    Joined:
    16 Jul 2005
    I've been through and summarised the turnover and profit figures for each subsidiary, together with a summary of any explanatory notes. N.B. Accounts are not yet available for the Scottish firms, South Yorkshire and West Yorkshire.

    All figures in 000s
    Code:
    Firm	                         	Turnover (15/16)Turnover (14/15)Profit (15/16) 	Profit (14/15)	Notes
    First Aberdeen Ltd
    First Beeline Buses Ltd 	 	£16,998 	£19,892 	£240 	 	£815	  	Bracknell depot sold
    First Bristol Ltd 	 	 	£52,840 	£50,459 	£803 	 	£3,936	
    First Cymru Buses Ltd 	 	 	£36,397 	£38,127 	£3,026 	 	£2,566
    First Eastern Counties Buses Ltd 	£34,476 	£33,697 	£65 	 	£246 		Additional staff
    First Essex Buses Ltd          	        £50,080 	£51,828 	£51 	 	£1,709
    First Glasgow (No 1) Ltd
    First Glasgow (No 2) Ltd
    First Hampshire & Dorset Ltd  		£44,293 	£42,260 	£2,816 	 	£2,389	
    First Manchester Ltd 	 	 	£88,214 	£89,935 	£431 	 	(£745)		Discontinuation of TfGM tenders and three-year planned reduction in concessionary income
    First Midland Red Buses Ltd  		£8,811  	£10,655 	(£1,051)	£308 		Hereford depot closed
    First Pioneer Bus Ltd 	 	 	£4,141		£6,578 	 	£150 	 	£227 		Transfer of services to Oldham depot, reduction of TfGM tenders
    First Potteries Ltd 	 	 	£19,209 	£20,645 	(£185)	 	(£1,645)	Newcastle-under-Lyme depot closed
    First Scotland East Ltd
    First Somerset & Avon Ltd 	 	£35,289 	£33,699 	(£1,881)	(£1,577)	Increased staff costs
    First South West Ltd 	 	 	£28,614 	£30,632 	(£3,308)	(£7,724)	Sale of South Devon & transfer of Taunton & Bridgwater depots
    First South Yorkshire Ltd
    First West Yorkshire Ltd
    First York Ltd 	 	 	 	£14,933 	£14,495 	(£661)	 	(£931)		New contract with the University of York & reduction in park and ride licence fee
    Leicester Citybus Ltd 	 	 	£15,459 	£16,177 	£2,538 	 	£2,300	 	Disruption from Haymarket bus station redevelopment
    Midland Bluebird Ltd
    TOTAL	                                £449,754 	£459,079 	£3,034 	 	£1,874 	
     
    Last edited: 10 Jan 2017
  2. overthewater

    overthewater Established Member

    Messages:
    3,250
    Joined:
    16 Apr 2012
    Your mist out midland bluebird. First scotland east only covers the livingston depot.
     
  3. TheGrandWazoo

    TheGrandWazoo Established Member

    Messages:
    7,609
    Joined:
    18 Feb 2013
    Location:
    Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
    As any good accountant will tell you, the information is so scant that it is impossible to really understand what may is actually happening.

    For instance, there could be some one offs in there? Things that may not be fully attributable but have been loaded into that business? You could have a pensions realignment? There could be an element of poor trading mixed in as well - certainly you would have bits of the old Frome and Trowbridge area plus taking on some lower margin stuff in North Bristol/South Glos in order to weaken Wessex.

    Truth is, without the detail that sits behind it, you can only guess!

    ps I am not an accountant.... but I work with plenty of them ;)
     
  4. GaryMcEwan

    GaryMcEwan Member

    Messages:
    830
    Joined:
    20 Aug 2013
    Location:
    Bridgeton, Glasgow
    Bluebird is in the list but the figures aren't there. It's the same with Glasgow No.1 and No.2
     
  5. Baxenden Bank

    Baxenden Bank Member

    Messages:
    931
    Joined:
    23 Oct 2013
    Taking on board what Grand Wazoo says in the previous post about the level of detail available and what may be hiding in there.

    Most companies show an improvement, be that higher profits or lower losses than the previous year. Except, on a simple turnover / costs analysis:
    First Beeline down from 7.47% to 1.6% profit
    First Essex down from 5.08% to 0.8% profit
    First Eastern Counties 1.81% to 0.65% profit
    First Midland Red 4.55% profit to 14.2% loss, ouch
    First Bristol, the 'star performer' 11.35% to 2.11% profit.

    Note the stretching of 'full size' bus life from 15 to 17 years, that will have a positive effect on the numbers as depreciation is reduced.

    In terms of First Potteries, I note a reduction in driving staff, as a result of service cuts, (sorry, network improvements :roll:) but a disproportionate reduction in maintenance staff. I hope this is not an omen for future poor maintenance standards, and consequent service reliability, as per 2003.
     
  6. overthewater

    overthewater Established Member

    Messages:
    3,250
    Joined:
    16 Apr 2012
    If you check the edit time its a few mins after I pointed out Midland bluebird is missing. ;)
     
  7. Baxenden Bank

    Baxenden Bank Member

    Messages:
    931
    Joined:
    23 Oct 2013
    Strangely, when I looked yesterday (Monday 9/1), the 'overdue' companies were showing as 'available soon', today the message does not show, nor have the accounts appeared. Perhaps the scanner has broken down with all the extra work!
     
  8. DD12

    DD12 Member

    Messages:
    59
    Joined:
    19 Oct 2014
    Thanks for posting all these figures, you guys !

    .... does anyone know what the total winding-up cost was for the closing of the Hereford operation ?

    First Midland Red now consists of only the Worcester based operation, and SHOULD - in my opinion - be making a healthy profit (despite serious traffic congestion + roadworks etc).

    - Would the cost of new vehicles be deducted from the profit figure ?

    Thanks.
     
  9. overthewater

    overthewater Established Member

    Messages:
    3,250
    Joined:
    16 Apr 2012
    The remaining accounts have now been submitted, if were lucky we might get them by the end of the week.
     
  10. Volvodart

    Volvodart Member

    Messages:
    478
    Joined:
    12 Jun 2010
    These accounts are now live and were submitted at the same time as all the other accounts lodged. Companies House had been showing these as filed late.

    First Aberdeen, First Glasgow 2 and First West Yorkshire are still shown as outstanding at Companies House.
     
    Last edited: 11 Jan 2017
  11. AaronR

    AaronR Member

    Messages:
    45
    Joined:
    12 Aug 2012
    It's about time FEC Ipswich had some investment! The fleet there consist of various hand me downs that although have been refurbished are now getting old. It would be good to get some new vehicles on the Ipswich - Felixstowe routes as they are always well loaded, as are the Stowmarket routes. The excuse is always that the depot at Ipswich cannot accommodate higher deckers but surely at some stage it makes sense to invest in the depot to change that? Norwich has had major investment and is always getting the new buses/newer transfers but Ipswich gets nothing.
     
  12. ooo

    ooo Member

    Messages:
    468
    Joined:
    8 Jun 2015
    Location:
    South west
    http://www.firstgroupplc.com/news-and-media/latest-news/2017/10-01-2017a.aspx
     
  13. overthewater

    overthewater Established Member

    Messages:
    3,250
    Joined:
    16 Apr 2012
    First West Yorkshire is the only one waiting to be submitted....

    MIDLAND Bluebird, Looking at this, I'm a bit confused at the MAJOR cuts, I expect cuts but I don't think 20 buses being taken off the road? Remember Gala got 6 buses taken off, Stirling had 7, Larbert 7 and Balfron the rest. So its not easy to track which depot causing the trouble either..

    [​IMG]

    First Edinburgh: Muss depot closed.

    [​IMG]

    First Glasgow no1

    Still made £6million in profit, not a poor man operations

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: 11 Jan 2017
  14. Volvodart

    Volvodart Member

    Messages:
    478
    Joined:
    12 Jun 2010
    Midland Bluebird would be the effect of the opening of the Borders Railway which resulted in cuts after the year end.
     
  15. overthewater

    overthewater Established Member

    Messages:
    3,250
    Joined:
    16 Apr 2012
    Of course, what I was trying to mean is the cuts were across the broad, and looking at those accounts there only loses of £300'000-ish. Yet someone at the company believe that it needed to trim even more fat beyond that of Borders Railway. Or was it the fact the company just wanted to get the routes right back down to the bone to see whats going on.
     
  16. Baxenden Bank

    Baxenden Bank Member

    Messages:
    931
    Joined:
    23 Oct 2013
    I wouldn't read too much into the management spiel which is written into the accounts. It's just a case of 'give us a couple of lines' to fill in a standard accounts report template. The bit about safety is repeated every year, unchanged.

    As mentioned, by Grand Wazoo initially, the accounts mean not a lot really. They undoubtedly comply with the law and accounting regulations but things can be hidden, or not referred to. In the accounts for First Potteries, there is a line, under operating costs, of £3,155 (,000) for 'other external charges'. That could refer to group company re-charges, head office re-charges or be a means of moving profits within the group so the subsidiaries all make a loss (with tax advantages) whilst another company in the wider group makes a profit - think of licencing fees charged by companies based in off-shore tax havens to group companies based in the UK (and elsewhere). Similarly debt created between companies at higher than would reasonably be expected rates. I'm not saying that happens within First but it happens in many large groups.
     
  17. overthewater

    overthewater Established Member

    Messages:
    3,250
    Joined:
    16 Apr 2012
    Cheers. Its also possible MB has to pay off its debt it racked up over the year, no fault of its own.

    First Glasgow No2 making £4million profit.
    First Aberdeen making £3.5 million.

    First South Yorkshire Ltd did not expect this:

    [​IMG]
     
  18. Robertj21a

    Robertj21a Established Member

    Messages:
    3,175
    Joined:
    22 Sep 2013
    And that's before they close Rotherham.
     
  19. overthewater

    overthewater Established Member

    Messages:
    3,250
    Joined:
    16 Apr 2012
    Has that closed yet?
     
  20. TheGrandWazoo

    TheGrandWazoo Established Member

    Messages:
    7,609
    Joined:
    18 Feb 2013
    Location:
    Somerset with international travel (e.g. across th
    Closes next month IIRC

    As Robert says, they cut the losses and that's before Rotherham goes. I don't know how large Rotherham depot actually is but had a quick go with a ruler and google maps. If it's about 160 ft2, then look at £4 a sq ft just for business rates and utilities. Make some savings in the back office and you see why they're doing it.

    Can make the same case with First Manchester closing Bury
     

Share This Page