First Group: General Discussion

[winston270twm]

You wonder how long, though, as it is obvious that they kept Greyhound being for sale as the "good news" for the results announcement when they could have said this at the update earlier this year.

But it's not "good news", we've all said for years they should sell Greyhound, instead they finally decide to sell when it's at its weakest / facing fierce competition from airlines & now Flixbus. Now worth a fraction of what it was.

Also, your forgetting that a number of the UK groups have been looking at / in negotiation with First Group over Manchester depot sales for months, both sides are going to have put things out there, to test the water.....

 

[Robertj21a]

But it's not "good news", we've all said for years they should sell Greyhound, instead they finally decide to sell when it's at its weakest / facing fierce competition from airlines & now Flixbus. Now worth a fraction of what it was.

Also, your forgetting that a number of the UK groups have been looking at / in negotiation with First Group over Manchester depot sales, both sides are going to have put things out there to test the water.....

Isn't today the final day of First operation out of Queens Road ?

 

[Kahuna47]

Isn't today the final day of First operation out of Queens Road ?

It is indeed. From tomorrpw there's a whacking big hole right in the middle of their network!

 

[overthewater]

Does this mean, Go Ahead, Transdev and maybe Stagecoach could ramp up Competition to grab more of the First Manchester Network without trying to pay for it?

Also you have to wonder if Lothian are doing the same? If so I'll now have utter contempt for LCB, who believe there can grab an area with out providing a decent service alot along give passengers proper tickets.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Does this mean, Go Ahead, Transdev and maybe Stagecoach could ramp up Competition to grab more of the First Manchester Network without trying to pay for it?

Also you have to wonder if Lothian are doing the same? If so I'll now have utter contempt for LCB, who believe there can grab an area with out providing a decent service alot along give passengers proper tickets.

Pretty certain they’ll have a caveat with Go Ahead and I’m struggling to recall Stagecoach and Transdev ramping up competition when the dodgy disposal dossier came out in 2013.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Isn't today the final day of First operation out of Queens Road ?

I thought it was Sunday, 2nd June, but was mistaken. The TfGM website has some information as to the number of routes and destinations that will be affected on their "timetable update" section.

 

[Sandy Drew]

Pretty certain they’ll have a caveat with Go Ahead and I’m struggling to recall Stagecoach and Transdev ramping up competition when the dodgy disposal dossier came out in 2013.

Indeed, TFGM have indicated that there will be ticket acceptance between First and Go Ahead for up to a year.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Someone want to tell Lothian and Edinburgh council ?

they can be a shareholder which they are, they are not allowed to have any direct control over the companies operations.

 

[In Focus]

they can be a shareholder which they are, they are not allowed to have any direct control over the companies operations.

On paper ,they are controlling it alright !

 

[WatcherZero]

First have made a £20m writedown on the sale of First Manchester, said it looked cheap.

 

[winston270twm]

First have made a £20m writedown on the sale of First Manchester, said it looked cheap.

It will be cheap, who's going to pay top dollar for something loss making that will needs lots of management time & investment to put right.

 

[Kahuna47]

First have made a £20m writedown on the sale of First Manchester, said it looked cheap.

They're lucky - its worth about £2.50 and whatever is left in the Celebrations tin at the new owners head office from Christmas... I believe its all Bountys!

 

[DragonEast]

Something still concerns me about the future of First, in whatever shape or form it comes. It always seemed to me that the key difference between the success of Stagecoach was they nurtured their roots in uk bus where they honed their craft and the lessons they applied elsewhere, in rail and coaching; whereas First Group saw uk bus as a legacy operation which needed to be supported by more profitable business, whether rail, transit, coaches or contract work. Of course that strategy has been blown out of the water, as so often happens. Life changes.

Has the heart just been ripped out of First? Or can a business thrive, like a Fund Manager, just on the pursuit of profit, wherever it is to be found? I suppose in Britain, the nation of shopkeepers (and estate agents), which seems to have become a nation of accountants, the answer is obvious . . .

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Something still concerns me about the future of First, in whatever shape or form it comes. It always seemed to me that the key difference between the success of Stagecoach was they nurtured their roots in uk bus where they honed their craft and the lessons they applied elsewhere, in rail and coaching; whereas First Group saw uk bus as a legacy operation which needed to be supported by more profitable business, whether rail, transit, coaches or contract work. Of course that strategy has been blown out of the water, as so often happens. Life changes.

Has the heart just been ripped out of First? Or can a business thrive, like a Fund Manager, just on the pursuit of profit, wherever it is to be found? I suppose in Britain, the nation of shopkeepers (and estate agents), which seems to have become a nation of accountants, the answer is obvious . . .

Brian Souter was an accountant

Moir Lockhead was a dyed in the wool busman who started with United Auto as an apprentice

 

[Cesarcollie]

Brian Souter was an accountant

Moir Lockhead was a dyed in the wool busman who started with United Auto as an apprentice

Indeed. And in this instance the accountant has turned out to be a far better busman than the busman....!

 

[In Focus]

Indeed. And in this instance the accountant has turned out to be a far better busman than the busman....!

Sentiment in business is not a good thing.

 

[Cesarcollie]

Sentiment in business is not a good thing.

I didn’t say it was.....!

 

[Busaholic]

Brian Souter was an accountant

Moir Lockhead was a dyed in the wool busman who started with United Auto as an apprentice

Brian Souter and sister Ann Gloag's father was a bus driver, though, which may have had an influence. Souter does seem to be something of an enthusiast too, especially where halfcab deckers are concerned, including the Routemaster. I think history will treat him better than Lockhead, despite his (in many ways) appalling behaviour in his early years.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Brian Souter and sister Ann Gloag's father was a bus driver, though, which may have had an influence. Souter does seem to be something of an enthusiast too, especially where halfcab deckers are concerned, including the Routemaster. I think history will treat him better than Lockhead, despite his (in many ways) appalling behaviour in his early years.

He worked part time as a bus conductor (think with Central SMT at East Kilbride, think) whilst studying. Believe that he saw how badly it was run with layers of bureaucracy and management and this informed his subsequent approach in his setting up Stagecoach’s initial foray.

 

[175mph]

They're lucky - its worth about £2.50 and whatever is left in the Celebrations tin at the new owners head office from Christmas... I believe its all Bountys!

I'm off over there then, Bountys are my favorite out of the Celebrations tin.

 

[In Focus]

I didn’t say it was.....!

No but you did state the obvious.... !!

 

[winston270twm]

Indeed. And in this instance the accountant has turned out to be a far better busman than the busman....!

Even Stagecoach have had their issues over the years... remember in Oct 2002 when shares hit a low of 13p as they were the verge on going bump, Swebus was short lived, Coach USA, then more recently disqualification from UK Rail. The big difference with Stagecoach is when a problem arises, it's dealt with quickly, unlike First who bury their head in the sand hoping things will get better....

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Is there any likelihood of the First "Vantage" fleet on the Leigh Guided Busway being affected by any other known First plans?

 

[GusB]

Brian Souter was an accountant

Moir Lockhead was a dyed in the wool busman who started with United Auto as an apprentice

Brian Souter and sister Ann Gloag's father was a bus driver, though, which may have had an influence. Souter does seem to be something of an enthusiast too, especially where halfcab deckers are concerned, including the Routemaster. I think history will treat him better than Lockhead, despite his (in many ways) appalling behaviour in his early years.

This illustrates, in my opinion anyhow, why any business leader needs to have enough of a balance between operational experience and a sound head for numbers. It's no use appointing someone who is a pure bean counter and has no shop-floor experience, and likewise you don't want someone who has purely risen through the ranks and is absolutely on the ball when it comes to the operational side of things, but doesn't really understand the financials. Over the years I've encountered the attitude that you don't really need to have experienced life on the front line to run a company, but from my own experience the best managers are the ones who aren't afraid to knuckle down and get their hands dirty. Souter, as much as I detest him for other things, has this in his favour.

 

[Robertj21a]

Brian Souter and sister Ann Gloag's father was a bus driver, though, which may have had an influence. Souter does seem to be something of an enthusiast too, especially where halfcab deckers are concerned, including the Routemaster. I think history will treat him better than Lockhead, despite his (in many ways) appalling behaviour in his early years.

Indeed, I would hope that history treats him massively better than Lockhead. He's been a very astute businessman over very many years, not afraid to experiment with new ideas, and has built up a, deserved, reputation for being the 'Number One' bus operator in the UK. To me, Lockhead always seemed to be out of his depth, but it still surprises me that his Board didn't intervene more.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Indeed, I would hope that history treats him massively better than Lockhead. He's been a very astute businessman over very many years, not afraid to experiment with new ideas, and has built up a, deserved, reputation for being the 'Number One' bus operator in the UK. To me, Lockhead always seemed to be out of his depth, but it still surprises me that his Board didn't intervene more.

Souter is very astute, is innovative and pragmatic.

Lockhead was obsessed with personal pride and hubris about making First the biggest. However, he was also CE in getting the share price to 800p before the Laidlaw bid which is why the board and shareholders trusted his approach. Laidlaw was a deal too far as we all know. First Bus needed greater investment as we knew at the time but when you’ve a guy at the top who has seemingly delivered massive improvements to the share price and dividends, that doesn’t get questioned as much!

 

[Goldfish62]

Even Stagecoach have had their issues over the years... remember in Oct 2002 when shares hit a low of 13p as they were the verge on going bump, Swebus was short lived, Coach USA, then more recently disqualification from UK Rail. The big difference with Stagecoach is when a problem arises, it's dealt with quickly, unlike First who bury their head in the sand hoping things will get better....

Also Stagecoach nearly lost the SWT franchise within a year of taking it over due to poor performance, but quickly turned it around to become one of the best performers.

 

[Robertj21a]

Souter is very astute, is innovative and pragmatic.

Lockhead was obsessed with personal pride and hubris about making First the biggest. However, he was also CE in getting the share price to 800p before the Laidlaw bid which is why the board and shareholders trusted his approach. Laidlaw was a deal too far as we all know. First Bus needed greater investment as we knew at the time but when you’ve a guy at the top who has seemingly delivered massive improvements to the share price and dividends, that doesn’t get questioned as much!

True. I can't now recall quite *how* he got First share price so high (luck, good PR ?) as nothing stands out in my mind as any obvious attraction of First Group at that time. Even so, he's not an accountant so I'd have hoped that someone else on the Board might have been a bit more cautious [all easy with hindsight, I accept].

 

[DaveLondon]

Is there any likelihood of the First "Vantage" fleet on the Leigh Guided Busway being affected by any other known First plans?

As I understand it it will not be included in any sale as TfGM is requiring the contract to be re let if First cease operating it. This stopped the sale of the depot concerned.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Even Stagecoach have had their issues over the years... remember in Oct 2002 when shares hit a low of 13p as they were the verge on going bump, Swebus was short lived, Coach USA, then more recently disqualification from UK Rail. The big difference with Stagecoach is when a problem arises, it's dealt with quickly, unlike First who bury their head in the sand hoping things will get better....

And Stagecoach, when they try an initiative, if it doesn't work they dump it, if it works they nurture it even if like the non-UK Megabus operations they later flog it. First just seem to let everything they try unenthusiastically peter out.