First Group: General Discussion

[MCW]

Would be a shame if Northampton is sold, as they hold historical significance to First Group being the first English municipal GRT purchased post-deregulation.

kills me that it was Northampton which was bought first and not Leicester....

sorry to ask (yet again) any news on Leicester/Northampton?

also I am working an awful lot so don't get much time to read through but can someone summarise the fleet changes for me please? are we expecting anything to arrive/leave from Leicester and Northampton?

 

[bb21]

kills me that it was Northampton which was bought first and not Leicester....

sorry to ask (yet again) any news on Leicester/Northampton?

also I am working an awful lot so don't get much time to read through but can someone summarise the fleet changes for me please? are we expecting anything to arrive/leave from Leicester and Northampton?

All speculation at the moment unfortunately.

On a side note, in the spirit of all the hooha's surrounding the corporation at the moment, Leicester travel shop is selling the propaganda book at £9.99 (RRP £27), and I finally got my hands on a pristine copy.

 

[overthewater]

Northampton IS FOR SALE, 6 other depots have also been lined up.... There still some details yet to appear for other areas.

To be honest, everyone and old lady cats already know this.,.....

 

[MK Tom]

Northampton IS FOR SALE, 6 other depots have also been lined up.... There still some details yet to appear for other areas.

To be honest, everyone and old lady cats already know this.,.....

Logic has told us that for a very long time, but do we have an official source for it now?

 

[A0wen]

Ah, thanks. Perhaps Stagecoach deserve more credit for investment than I give them. I just see a £7.50 return from Stony Stratford to Northampton as being absurd, and the £10.90 dayrider gold, when compared to Arriva's £5.90 MK-Aylesbury return and £8.50 Explorer (all prices from the last time I bought each ticket). As for Rugby, a £2.05 town-suburb single against £1.50 for Arriva Aylesbury and £2.00 for MK seems mental.

So if First do pull out of Northampton (or when they do), what happens to all their school contracts and what happens to the Luton Airport shuttle they run?

But what you don't know is whether that price differential has always existed?

There may always have been a differential between MK>Aylesbury vs Stony > Northampton even back in NBC days, you simply don't know.

I don't think SC Northampton's fares are particularly excessive. Certainly their fleet seems to be fairly new and over the last 10 years I've lived in the area there seems to have been a steady stream of new vehicles arriving in the fleet with older ones being progressively cascaded out.

Compared with First, who've withdrawn from large parts of Northampton and who's vehicles seemed to get older and in poorer condition e.g. the Plaxton Verdes that seemed to arrive about 8 years ago or some of the Solos they have had running around, Stagecoach have done a fine job.

Never travelled on Centrebus, but they seem to have a real rag-tag fleet. In some areas on some routes they appear to be newish vehicles which are well maintained, in others they are old and scruffy - far more so than Stagecoach or Arrivas.

And it is interesting that you're praising Arriva -I can recall when Arriva took over MK Metro and there were endless prophecies of doom around - sounds like they were misplaced.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Northampton IS FOR SALE, 6 other depots have also been lined up.... There still some details yet to appear for other areas.

To be honest, everyone and old lady cats already know this.,.....

Any chance of some evidence to back up your assertions?

 

[bb21]

Logic has told us that for a very long time, but do we have an official source for it now?

Any chance of some evidence to back up your assertions?

I have now seen some internal documentation that confirms this assertion, however it is only for internal use so would rather not release it into the public domain.

 

[MK Tom]

I have now seen some internal documentation that confirms this assertion, however it is only for internal use so would rather not release it into the public domain.

Nice one! That documentation didn't give any clues as to potential buyers did it?

 

[Blindtraveler]

And I'l bet it had at least
1
other Scottish depot on it?

 

[anthony263]

I have now seen some internal documentation that confirms this assertion, however it is only for internal use so would rather not release it into the public domain.

I was thinking that speaking to some drivers I know who work for First.

 

[Tomonthetrain]

Wouldn't be surprised of Wyvern got sold of Northamptop doesnt

 

[Blindtraveler]

And with Stagecoach0looking to do great things in West Lothian then why not? wonder though what would happen to 43 and X43 edinburgh - Queensferry? If SC Took it CC would likely kick as they would then dominate the Queensferry Road/A90 coridor. lothian I doubt would have any interest, leaving us with Horsburgh and perhaps ECL?

 

[Volvodart]

This week's Passenger Transport magazine (not online) says that Wigan, Chester, Birkenhead, Northampton, Redduich, Kidderminster and Somerset are for sale. Note the Somerset sale is for an as yet unspecified part of its 163 vehicle operation.

This would not come up with the £83 million of the £100 million sales required by the end of the financial year. They reckon that the disposals above of the 495 buses raising £53million based on the amounts raised in London and Devon so far.

 

[sonic2009]

If Wyvern does go, who can we see taking that area over?

 

[Schnellzug]

This week's Passenger Transport magazine (not online) says that Wigan, Chester, Birkenhead, Northampton, Redduich, Kidderminster and Somerset are for sale. Note the Somerset sale is for an as yet unspecified part of its 163 vehicle operation.

.

Somerset? I'm guessing the ex Southern National part. I suppose Stagcoach'd be logical to take that on; that would seem to fit quite logically.
I do sometimes wish that they'd sell off the rest of it, so someone could buy it out and recreate Badgerline, mind ...

 

[anthony263]

If Wyvern does go, who can we see taking that area over?

A certain national operator who's name begins with S.

 

[sonic2009]

A certain national operator who's name begins with S.

I'm not sure about that one!

 

[anthony263]

I'm not sure about that one!

The way stagecoach are sniffing around I would be that surprised if they did.

 

[Volvodart]

Full story now here plus following quote:-

A FirstGroup spokesperson commented: “The vast majority of our UK Bus division generates good returns with opportunities to improve further. As previously announced, however, there is scope to reposition our portfolio to concentrate on those markets that offer the greatest long term potential.

“We are developing opportunities for a number of disposals within our UK Bus division and the unsubstantiated information given to Passenger Transport does not comprise the entire sum of those disposals. We have always been very clear that from the outset that our strategy is to bring those businesses to the market in select tranches to ensure stability for our employees and operations. Given the breach of confidentiality that has taken place it demonstrates that this is the correct approach.

“At this point, we are not disclosing any more details about our plans for commercial reasons and to ensure that we are able to fully consult with any employees and other stakeholders that may be affected.”

http://www.passengertransport.co.uk/2012/06/first-seeks-buyers-for-seven-bus-operations/

 

[Schnellzug]

Full story now here plus following quote:-

A FirstGroup spokesperson commented: “The vast majority of our UK Bus division generates good returns with opportunities to improve further. As previously announced, however, there is scope to reposition our portfolio to concentrate on those markets that offer the greatest long term potential.

“We are developing opportunities for a number of disposals within our UK Bus division and the unsubstantiated information given to Passenger Transport does not comprise the entire sum of those disposals. We have always been very clear that from the outset that our strategy is to bring those businesses to the market in select tranches to ensure stability for our employees and operations. Given the breach of confidentiality that has taken place it demonstrates that this is the correct approach.

“At this point, we are not disclosing any more details about our plans for commercial reasons and to ensure that we are able to fully consult with any employees and other stakeholders that may be affected.”

http://www.passengertransport.co.uk/2012/06/first-seeks-buyers-for-seven-bus-operations/

Heavens, people study for years at elite universities to get degrees in polysyllabic PR-speak, don't they. "select tranches"? "there is scope to reposition our portfolio"?

 

[MK Tom]

A certain national operator who's name begins with S.

At this rate the whole country is going to be run by a certain national operator whose name begins with S. I feel if old Stagey go for more than a couple of these areas the office of fair trading or the competition comission or the monoplies authority or whatever the hell it's called this week will get involved.

"Arriva Somerset'' has a nice ring to it... it'd be good to see them branch out of SE and Midlands a bit more. My personal favourite for Northampton would be a GoAhead revival of Northampton Transport, but alas, Centrebus is somewhat more likely.

 

[Schnellzug]

At this rate the whole country is going to be run by a certain national operator whose name begins with S. I feel if old Stagey go for more than a couple of these areas the office of fair trading or the competition comission or the monoplies authority or whatever the hell it's called this week will get involved.

yes, that might well be true, particularly with Mr. Souter already being responsible for a large contiguous area.* Like I suggested in tongue in cheek fashion, though, I would rather like to see a few of the components of these big groups go back to being independent once again; it might be nice to think that things might head in that direction once again.


* I can be polysyllabic as well as First spokespersons, see

 

[sonic2009]

I can see Worcestershire not going to Stagecoach, but I can see some drastic changes. I think the Redditch operation will go out to Diamond.

 

[Ivo]

If Wyvern does go, who can we see taking that area over?

A certain national operator who's name begins with S.

I wouldn't have thought Sonic would complain if Stagecoach turned up?

Somerset? I'm guessing the ex Southern National part. I suppose Stagcoach'd be logical to take that on; that would seem to fit quite logically.
I do sometimes wish that they'd sell off the rest of it, so someone could buy it out and recreate Badgerline, mind ...

Hmm. I'm a bit surprised to see Somerset under threat. Until it was transferred to Dorset I would have thought Yeovil would be the obvious one, but obviously it doesn't come under Somerset now, and even if it did it's a bit remote for any other major operator to take over. Otherwise, I would like to know where the number 163 came from; I can't make sense of it at all! The best I can do is to remove Bath from the equation, but in doing so that would also eliminate Wells which is more likely; on the other hand, it doesn't eliminate long-distance routes from Bristol.

Truth be told, I can't see any part of Somerset being sold. Although if something does happen, I agree that the ex-National section is far more likely.

 

[overthewater]

when it comes to Northampton, i just the feeling FIRST will just pull out of the area, and just sell the depot for a couple of millions to Stagecoach. who would want to buy hugh depot and crap buses for a few route?

* Redditch I think this may end up with Stagecoach, its just next door and will make sure Competitions still happens in the area.

* Kidderminster, I believe willl be Rota;

* Birkenhead could go to Stagecaoch aswell, as there have done really will with Arriva on the Mersey travel contracts...

* Chester, Wigan, I believe Rota or Transdev,

* Somerset, Go ahead

 

[tbtc]

Would be a shame if Northampton is sold, as they hold historical significance to First Group being the first English municipal GRT purchased post-deregulation.

Sentiment and commerce don't go together very well...

True - the East Lothian/ Midlothian were very early parts of GRT too - look what happened there...

Wouldn't be surprised of Wyvern got sold of Northamptop doesnt

Wyvern has always been an "oddity" in terms of fleet compared to other parts of First, hasn't it?

And with Stagecoach0looking to do great things in West Lothian then why not? wonder though what would happen to 43 and X43 edinburgh - Queensferry? If SC Took it CC would likely kick as they would then dominate the Queensferry Road/A90 coridor. lothian I doubt would have any interest, leaving us with Horsburgh and perhaps ECL?

In the grand scheme of competition issues, I don't think that Stagecoach domination of the Barnton to South Queensferry is going to make much difference (bearing in mind that Lothian now control the much bigger Mussleburgh/Dalkeith - Edinburgh markets and run a fifteen minute service from Edinburgh to Barnton).

This week's Passenger Transport magazine (not online) says that Wigan, Chester, Birkenhead, Northampton, Redduich, Kidderminster and Somerset are for sale. Note the Somerset sale is for an as yet unspecified part of its 163 vehicle operation.

This would not come up with the £83 million of the £100 million sales required by the end of the financial year. They reckon that the disposals above of the 495 buses raising £53million based on the amounts raised in London and Devon so far.

A very interesting list, and quite a southern one too (nothing north/east of Chester/Wigan, so not the Yorkshire or Central Belt depots that are so often rumoured)

 

[overthewater]

And with Stagecoach0looking to do great things in West Lothian then why not? wonder though what would happen to 43 and X43 edinburgh - Queensferry? If SC Took it CC would likely kick as they would then dominate the Queensferry Road/A90 coridor. lothian I doubt would have any interest, leaving us with Horsburgh and perhaps ECL?

In the grand scheme of competition issues, I don't think that Stagecoach domination of the Barnton to South Queensferry is going to make much difference (bearing in mind that Lothian now control the much bigger Mussleburgh/Dalkeith - Edinburgh markets and run a fifteen minute service from Edinburgh to Barnton).

There a BID Difference here, Route 43 is operated by Linlithgow depot, which make money the only 4 other route in the depot: 31/32, 38, 45/46 and L1

The talk has been Livingston depot which stagecoach might buy, which would only cover routes mainly around southern half of Area and Edinburgh. First would still operate in the area with No29 from Falkirk and 31/32 from Linlithgow.

A very interesting list, and quite a southern one too (nothing north/east of Chester/Wigan, so not the Yorkshire or Central Belt depots that are so often rumoured)

OH no, As FirstBus has said stated not the full list, (there still £20million + needing to be found) There is some very good reasons why other details have not been fully released just yet, all will become clear soon!

 

[mbonwick]

I'm assuming that the 'rota' overthewater refers to is actually Rotala PLC?

 

[overthewater]

I'm assuming that the 'rota' overthewater refers to is actually Rotala PLC?

Sorry about that, Its just been a bit quicker using there shorter name.

 

[Schnellzug]

I always confuse them with the mobile phone people.

 

[Polarbear]

As regards Chester & the Wirral, I can see Stagecoach acquiring Rock Ferry. It would fit in well with the rest of their operation in Merseyside, plus giving them a share of the lucrative cross river pot.

I doubt Stagecoach would be interested in Chester, but Arriva aren't likely to get it due to competition concerns. That said, when Chester City was up for sale, Arriva registered services on all of the ex CC routes prior to First taking over. They subsequently de-registered all bar the Blacon & Saughall routes. They could well do that again to ward off any serious competition in the area?