First Group: General Discussion

[Busaholic]

Could these people not work in the fields?

Not sure who you're talking about. I'm a city boy who happens to have lived in West Cornwall for 30 odd years, and was always a worker. I don't get for one minute why people from Latvia, etc, have had to be hired in the past to get the crops of veg and, to a lesser extent, fruit in, plus daffodils, etc. I'm sure there was exploitation in the past, but now the rewards are reasonable, even good, but the 'locals' just won't do it, and are useless at it when they do, being far too slow. The farmers down here, UKIP/Tory that they largely were, started bleating shortly after the referendum that they were either short of labour or would be the following year, and now 90% of that foreign labour has gone, probably nearer 100% by this time next year. Fishermen are a strange breed, and work hard/play hard (= drink hard) is the rule,with plenty of 'perks' on offer: amazing how many half price fags are, allegedly, for sale in Newlyn.

 

[Dai Corner]

Not sure who you're talking about. I'm a city boy who happens to have lived in West Cornwall for 30 odd years, and was always a worker. I don't get for one minute why people from Latvia, etc, have had to be hired in the past to get the crops of veg and, to a lesser extent, fruit in, plus daffodils, etc. I'm sure there was exploitation in the past, but now the rewards are reasonable, even good, but the 'locals' just won't do it, and are useless at it when they do, being far too slow. The farmers down here, UKIP/Tory that they largely were, started bleating shortly after the referendum that they were either short of labour or would be the following year, and now 90% of that foreign labour has gone, probably nearer 100% by this time next year. Fishermen are a strange breed, and work hard/play hard (= drink hard) is the rule,with plenty of 'perks' on offer: amazing how many half price fags are, allegedly, for sale in Newlyn.

The lack of cheap(ish) labour might drive the move towards mechanised harvesting.

This article is two years old, but more relevant than ever now.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/feb/25/eu-workers-farms-food-robots-brexit

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Could these people not work in the fields?

Fishermen owning boats just won't get the money they need to cover their fixed costs.

@Busaholic is probably right that now we're out of the EU, the fishermen will have to think of a different enemy

 

[winston270twm]

Whilst Morrisons have had poor stocks, I’ve been using veg box fresh from Saltash for veg deliveries, they claim to source mainly from local farmers. My meat is coming from Brays in landrake who are also doing deliveries.
The quality is miles above that of supermarket meat and veg and not a lot dearer. I’d recommend both.

somewhat ironically First have the highest cash reserves for such a downturn. quoted by media as £400m, compared to stagecoach at £250m. The rail TOC support should also do first group good at this time too.

Go ahead have told their staff their finances are critical with sufficient reserves to survive 4-6 weeks. They’ve turned their WiFi off at various opcos as they can’t afford the bill for it! this corona seems to have turned all on its head! GA might have been reporting good accounts year on year. But putting away little reserves for tough times

First may have the largest cash reserve, but it also has the biggest mouth to feed and will burn through it much quicker due to their larger size. With Airlines parking their fleets up across the globe, I can't imagine this will be doing Greyhound's financial performance any good either.

First Group & Stagecoach cannot be compared like for like, First Group's Turnover is £7.1 billion, where Stagecoach's Turnover is now down to £1.9 Billion, therefore, Stagecoach proportionally have the highest amount of cash, they actually have £290 million of cash & un-drawn banking facilities at their disposal and £392 million of debt.

 

[Volvodart]

In today's announcement, the results date and AGM have been postponed to a date yet to be determined. One thing of note is that US is to subsidise Inter City bus services, which Greyhound will be uniquely placed to take advantage of.

https://otp.tools.investis.com/generic/regulatory-story.aspx?newsid=1387518&cid=858

 

[overthewater]

How has this effect the sale off, USA operations? Have they all been pulled for this year?

 

[richw]

April appears to have been better than anticipated.

(Sharecast News) - Public transport operator FirstGroup said it had generated more cash than expected in the first month of the new financial year as coronavirus lockdown measures started to ease.

The bus and rail company on Thursday said it had £770m in undrawn committed headroom and free cash.

FirstGroup also welcomed the UK government's extra £254m for buses and £29m for trams and light rail to help increase the frequency and capacity of services as lockdown measures were gradually relaxed in England.

"For the first month of the current financial year, cash generated by operations in our road divisions and for the group as a whole was positive and ahead of our projections at the outset of the month," FirstGroup said in a statement.

 

[Tetchytyke]

I don't know if it was that First got bored but that managers got so hacked off that there was a steady churn of people.

That would explain a lot. It's a shame First never followed through with anything they did.

The bus photo shows an advert for the FirstCard they trialled in Bradford, which gave "Busmiles" loyalty points when you topped it up with bus cards or PAYG credit. A very good idea, way way ahead of its time- it predated Oyster by three years. And they just wandered away from it.

I suppose this is partly why they're in this mess now!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I suppose this is partly why they're in this mess now!

Fish rots from the head down.... It's not just the obvious examples of Northampton or SMT that make you realise how bad First got.

I had a spell of travelling on Midland Red West from 1996 to 2001. The business contracted as they cut back services and frequencies and exited Shropshire etc. They cashed in on various properties (Kiddy, Evesham) but investment was minimal especially when compared with the Badgerline days. The odd splurge of spending of some Merc minis in (1998) and a sizeable batch of e300s, Solos and a few Tridents in 2004.

From covering Worcestershire and Herefordshire plus reasonable chunks of Shropshire and West Mids, they're now confined to Worcester and Malvern with tendrils to Birmingham and Evesham plus a few infrequent runs to Tewkesbury or Ledbury. Saddening.

 

[Robertj21a]

Slight restructuring put in place to ensure that First South Yorkshire doesn't fall any further down the drain than it has over recent years. First Midlands to be merged in and Nigel Eggleton to be the MD of a new First South Yorkshire & Midlands division.

 

[Andyh82]

That would explain a lot. It's a shame First never followed through with anything they did.

The bus photo shows an advert for the FirstCard they trialled in Bradford, which gave "Busmiles" loyalty points when you topped it up with bus cards or PAYG credit. A very good idea, way way ahead of its time- it predated Oyster by three years. And they just wandered away from it.

I suppose this is partly why they're in this mess now!

FirstCard suffered from being an early non compatible product, it was phased out when they changed the ticket machines.

There was always a constant threat, as there still is now, of a Oyster style multi operator smart card county or country wide being just around the corner, but of course never quite is.

 

[Tetchytyke]

FirstCard suffered from being an early non compatible product, it was phased out when they changed the ticket machines.

It had effectively died long before then, it never got out of Bradford and I genuinely never understood why. The change to Ticketer finished it off, yes, though that was always more of an excuse.

I just find it mad that they tossed the product away, not just for the passenger benefit but for the business benefits of being able to trace who your customers are and where they go.

Fish rots from the head down.... It's not just the obvious examples of Northampton or SMT that make you realise how bad First got.

I'd never quite grasped just how bad First got under Moir, but looking back its obvious. Telling, too, that Giles Fearnley hasn't really been able to turn things round, it feels like he's still firefighting. I'm staggered when I go back to Bradford just how bad it has got. Where I used to live is now down to 1 bus every 2 hours on weekends/Sundays, and on a tender to Tiger. It should be prime bus territory- it was when I lived there.

Go back 20 years and FirstGroup were seen as the leaders, so all this ‘they got bored, typical First’ type language isn’t really true.

For a while they were seen as the leaders. They were genuinely innovative, far more so than Stagecoach. Overground is a prime example of a really good idea of simple clear branding which was genuinely industry-leading. And within a few years it had withered away to nothing through lack of interest.

So yes, it is true. You cannot look at First and see a business with a coherent plan.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I'd never quite grasped just how bad First got under Moir, but looking back its obvious. Telling, too, that Giles Fearnley hasn't really been able to turn things round, it feels like he's still firefighting. I'm staggered when I go back to Bradford just how bad it has got. Where I used to live is now down to 1 bus every 2 hours on weekends/Sundays, and on a tender to Tiger. It should be prime bus territory- it was when I lived there.

In fairness, I think there's a few places that were good bus territory (and intuitively you would think should still be) that just aren't and not just confined to First.

Slight restructuring put in place to ensure that First South Yorkshire doesn't fall any further down the drain than it has over recent years. First Midlands to be merged in and Nigel Eggleton to be the MD of a new First South Yorkshire & Midlands division.

That's an interesting move. FSY is one of those businesses that just stinks of a lack of strategy and focus and most of all, commitment to make things better.

 

[Swimbar]

Slight restructuring put in place to ensure that First South Yorkshire doesn't fall any further down the drain than it has over recent years. First Midlands to be merged in and Nigel Eggleton to be the MD of a new First South Yorkshire & Midlands division.

Presumably York, which was linked to South Yorkshire, will now come under Leeds?

 

[overthewater]

What is going on with First? Is UK bus safe, is USA sell off? Has everything been pulled until next year?

 

[Andyh82]

It had effectively died long before then, it never got out of Bradford and I genuinely never understood why. The change to Ticketer finished it off, yes, though that was always more of an excuse.

It wasn’t the change to Tcketer, it was when they changed to the Almex machines. Bradford’s FirstCard worked with the Wayfarer machines.

As I said it never got out of Bradford because there was always an Oyster style product just around the corner that never happened. I’ve lost track of the amount of times Local or national governments (of all colours) has announced an ‘Oyster style’ card.

Also Bradford stuck with Overground for a good 10 years, so like I say again you are rewriting history by saying what First were like recently is what they were always like. I think it was discontinued when they introduced the new livery in 2012.

Some places like Leeds seemed to embrace it under duress even from the start, so it depends what area you are looking at.

 

[noddingdonkey]

I wouldn't be surprised to see that Oyster style product coming off the back of COVID-19. As people go back to work on a phased basis a more nuanced offering for the commuter market is likely to be required.

Oyster's daily/weekly/monthly capping could work very well for people like me who are expecting to work from home with a day or two in the office each week once things start to get back to normal.

 

[Robertj21a]

In fairness, I think there's a few places that were good bus territory (and intuitively you would think should still be) that just aren't and not just confined to First.


That's an interesting move. FSY is one of those businesses that just stinks of a lack of strategy and focus and most of all, commitment to make things better.

The whole FSY operation has been a basket case for many years now. These changes appear to have removed some of the key individuals who were, presumably, felt to be responsible.
Nigel Eggleton is generally viewed as having done a good job with his 3 Midlands operation, particularly as Potteries and Worcester have their fair share of problems.

 

[M60lad]

The fleet at South Yorkshire though seems to be improving now although with the replacement of more of the ALX400s at Doncaster with E400s from First Manchester which were loaned to Diamond Northwest until recently.

BTW whats the situation at the moment with First's Oldham Depot is this being run by First West Yorkshire and if so could there be fleet investment with replacement of some of Oldham's older B9s and B7s with some of the newer examples from West Yorkshire considering they keep getting newer vehicles?

 

[Robertj21a]

The fleet at South Yorkshire though seems to be improving now although with the replacement of more of the ALX400s at Doncaster with E400s from First Manchester which were loaned to Diamond Northwest until recently.

BTW whats the situation at the moment with First's Oldham Depot is this being run by First West Yorkshire and if so could there be fleet investment with replacement of some of Oldham's older B9s and B7s with some of the newer examples from West Yorkshire considering they keep getting newer vehicles?

Little point in sending in more buses to FSY if they don't look after them. Hopefully, the new regime will improve matters.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The fleet at South Yorkshire though seems to be improving now although with the replacement of more of the ALX400s at Doncaster with E400s from First Manchester which were loaned to Diamond Northwest until recently.

BTW whats the situation at the moment with First's Oldham Depot is this being run by First West Yorkshire and if so could there be fleet investment with replacement of some of Oldham's older B9s and B7s with some of the newer examples from West Yorkshire considering they keep getting newer vehicles?

Oldham is still run from West Yorkshire. Any changes will largely be dependent on the long term prognosis for the depot and that is massively unclear given franchising and the impact of Covid. As it is, there are relatively few old vehicles (B7RLEs) and for FWY, they have more pressing requirements in clearing out their remaining B7Ls.

Little point in sending in more buses to FSY if they don't look after them. Hopefully, the new regime will improve matters.

Quite. In terms of FSY, Nigel Eggleton has his work cut out.

Anecdotally, the closure of Rotherham seems to have had a negative impact on service delivery. It was right to close it in terms of the actual building - cost a fortune to run and there were some hefty remedial works required but they would probably have been better off relocating to a smaller facility instead of trying to run nearly everything from Olive Grove? They seemingly lost both a level of engineering resource and experience, as well as having to operate vehicles with heavily interworked boards. Mind you, interworking seems to be prevalent at Donny too and that is terrible for service reliability.

I don't know where he starts at. I think he has to get service reliability sorted, so invest in maintenance to get vehicles on the road and simplify the interworking of services? Invest in the people - get the staff onside and again, more engineering staff. Focus on improving the everyday appearance of the fleet - just because it's a twelve year old Eclipse, it doesn't need to have ground in grime. There may also be some quick wins by undoing some of the more esoteric changes, and focus on driving passenger growth on those key corridors like the X1 and X78. Once that sort of hard work is done, then I'm sure it will be on with the marketing hat etc but got to get the base product right first!

 

[Robertj21a]

Oldham is still run from West Yorkshire. Any changes will largely be dependent on the long term prognosis for the depot and that is massively unclear given franchising and the impact of Covid. As it is, there are relatively few old vehicles (B7RLEs) and for FWY, they have more pressing requirements in clearing out their remaining B7Ls.



Quite. In terms of FSY, Nigel Eggleton has his work cut out.

Anecdotally, the closure of Rotherham seems to have had a negative impact on service delivery. It was right to close it in terms of the actual building - cost a fortune to run and there were some hefty remedial works required but they would probably have been better off relocating to a smaller facility instead of trying to run nearly everything from Olive Grove? They seemingly lost both a level of engineering resource and experience, as well as having to operate vehicles with heavily interworked boards. Mind you, interworking seems to be prevalent at Donny too and that is terrible for service reliability.

I don't know where he starts at. I think he has to get service reliability sorted, so invest in maintenance to get vehicles on the road and simplify the interworking of services? Invest in the people - get the staff onside and again, more engineering staff. Focus on improving the everyday appearance of the fleet - just because it's a twelve year old Eclipse, it doesn't need to have ground in grime. There may also be some quick wins by undoing some of the more esoteric changes, and focus on driving passenger growth on those key corridors like the X1 and X78. Once that sort of hard work is done, then I'm sure it will be on with the marketing hat etc but got to get the base product right first!

He will know only too well about the engineering problems at FSY - Leicester has been repairing FSY vehicles for some months. It appears that there was an assumption that Rotherham engineering staff would simply transfer to Sheffield. They didn't. Sheffield engineers were then involved in an industrial dispute, and some simply left to work where they were better appreciated.

 

[baza585]

Oldham is still run from West Yorkshire. Any changes will largely be dependent on the long term prognosis for the depot and that is massively unclear given franchising and the impact of Covid. As it is, there are relatively few old vehicles (B7RLEs) and for FWY, they have more pressing requirements in clearing out their remaining B7Ls.



Quite. In terms of FSY, Nigel Eggleton has his work cut out.

Anecdotally, the closure of Rotherham seems to have had a negative impact on service delivery. It was right to close it in terms of the actual building - cost a fortune to run and there were some hefty remedial works required but they would probably have been better off relocating to a smaller facility instead of trying to run nearly everything from Olive Grove? They seemingly lost both a level of engineering resource and experience, as well as having to operate vehicles with heavily interworked boards. Mind you, interworking seems to be prevalent at Donny too and that is terrible for service reliability.

I don't know where he starts at. I think he has to get service reliability sorted, so invest in maintenance to get vehicles on the road and simplify the interworking of services? Invest in the people - get the staff onside and again, more engineering staff. Focus on improving the everyday appearance of the fleet - just because it's a twelve year old Eclipse, it doesn't need to have ground in grime. There may also be some quick wins by undoing some of the more esoteric changes, and focus on driving passenger growth on those key corridors like the X1 and X78. Once that sort of hard work is done, then I'm sure it will be on with the marketing hat etc but got to get the base product right first!

Spot on. There is no point in any marketing spend until you have an attractive saleable product. FSY is a long way from that. Good luck Nigel and team, I fear you are going to need it!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

He will know only too well about the engineering problems at FSY - Leicester has been repairing FSY vehicles for some months. It appears that there was an assumption that Rotherham engineering staff would simply transfer to Sheffield. They didn't. Sheffield engineers were then involved in an industrial dispute, and some simply left to work where they were better appreciated.

Indeed - various B9s have been down and also the scene of knackered Streetdecks parked up outside Leicester depot (ps they still heading elsewhere?)

Knew about the Rotherham non-transfer but wasn't aware of IR issues other than the wider strike

 

[cnjb8]

Slight restructuring put in place to ensure that First South Yorkshire doesn't fall any further down the drain than it has over recent years. First Midlands to be merged in and Nigel Eggleton to be the MD of a new First South Yorkshire & Midlands division.

Hopefully Nigel can turn South Yorkshire around. Maybe we will see a return to the Mainline brand?

Presumably York, which was linked to South Yorkshire, will now come under Leeds?

I thought York was under its own management but linked to West Yorkshire

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Hopefully Nigel can turn South Yorkshire around. Maybe we will see a return to the Mainline brand?

I thought York was under its own management but linked to West Yorkshire

I doubt it. Mainline was a bit tarnished by the end and it's not like we've seen the return of many other old names.

I lose track of who runs York! Given where most recent vehicle transfers have come from, I thought it was West Yorkshire but be good to know.

 

[baza585]

I doubt it. Mainline was a bit tarnished by the end and it's not like we've seen the return of many other old names.

I lose track of who runs York! Given where most recent vehicle transfers have come from, I thought it was West Yorkshire but be good to know.

To be honest I've lost track of who runs a number of opcos. I'll start a new thread, and see if we can piece together current structures.....

 

[Robertj21a]

Indeed - various B9s have been down and also the scene of knackered Streetdecks parked up outside Leicester depot (ps they still heading elsewhere?)

Knew about the Rotherham non-transfer but wasn't aware of IR issues other than the wider strike

The 6 knackered FSY Streetdecks are believed to be heading on to Bristol.

 

[Bungle965]

Any further talk around the regional management structure of First can be discussed in this thread

First regional management structures

Recent developments in FSY has prompted me to start a new thread, where folk can post details of the regional structures in their areas. In terms of my area First Hampshire Dorset and Berkshire covers Dorset (Weymouth), Southampton, Solent (Hoeford and Hilsea) and Berkshire (Slough). AFAIK MD...

www.railforums.co.uk

I have moved a few of the posts from this thread into said thread.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The 6 knackered FSY Streetdecks are believed to be heading on to Bristol.

Cheers