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First Group: General Discussion

Goldfish62

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Stagecoach dont ship out any of there mid life london stock anymore? in fact its all leased. So If first had kept London it could have moved over to such a model. Lothian ended up buying ex london stock but has spent £££ to refurb them.
Yes, deliberate policy by Stagecoach because London-spec are so non-standard these days as well as being a lot more expensive. Stagecoach's purchasing power allows them to buy new no-frills buses at very good prices.
 
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Surreyman

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My understanding is that Stagecoach Lease new vehicles for their London Fleet. (This was stated as policy when they re-acquired London from Macquarie).
There have been a handful of examples in recent times of London vehicles moving to the "Provinces' - Tridents for open Top conversion.
When leases expire, (If not short term extended) Stagecoach can always buy vehicles from the Leasing Co.
A number of elderly London Tridents & Darts have moved to other Stagecoach Co's for Spare part recovery.
There have been recent examples of relatively new vehicles being returned to the leasing Companies (Loss of contracts) from some London companies, as already mentioned Lothian have taken advantage of this.
Given Firsts poor financial circumstances, need to keep Cap-Ex to a minimum and not withstanding forthcoming CAZ/LEZs, I wonder if they might be tempted to buy secondhand?
 

TheGrandWazoo

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My understanding is that Stagecoach Lease new vehicles for their London Fleet. (This was stated as policy when they re-acquired London from Macquarie).
There have been a handful of examples in recent times of London vehicles moving to the "Provinces' - Tridents for open Top conversion.
When leases expire, (If not short term extended) Stagecoach can always buy vehicles from the Leasing Co.
A number of elderly London Tridents & Darts have moved to other Stagecoach Co's for Spare part recovery.
There have been recent examples of relatively new vehicles being returned to the leasing Companies (Loss of contracts) from some London companies, as already mentioned Lothian have taken advantage of this.
Given Firsts poor financial circumstances, need to keep Cap-Ex to a minimum and not withstanding forthcoming CAZ/LEZs, I wonder if they might be tempted to buy secondhand?

Whilst me and Winston are often of a like mind, I do understand why First did divest London both for the cash injection and that London was soaking up the limited amounts of capital. Also, as others have said, it meant that the provincial fleets were having London spec vehicles foisted on them with 62 seat Tridents or various B7TLs going elsewhere having been hammered round West London for 8-10 years.

Stagecoach did have the same issue but it was a good move that on selling their London ops, as they were then able to use that capital to invest in the big city fleets like Manchester. Their model was then to cascade standard fleet to the provinces, so newish Tridents and e400s were cascaded out from there to places like Cambridge, Devon, Gloucester or Northants. Receiving 2/3 year old fleet has enabled cost and revenue improvements in those fleets to justify replacement with new fleet. In some respects, that is what First are attempting to do with Leeds - receiving new fleet and culling some older stuff but also cascaded relatively youthful B9s to Swansea and Norfolk.

That is what probably needs to happen. When Bristol receives it's first CNG deckers in 2019, perhaps their Streetdecks could head to places like Norwich or Leicester to improve their lot - good operations but not quite able to get the new vehicles they need.
 

Robertj21a

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I thought First Leicester had been buying only new for some time now - both Streetdecks and Streetlites.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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I thought First Leicester had been buying only new for some time now - both Streetdecks and Streetlites.
Indeed and Norwich have also had some new deliveries but in increasingly straitened times as regards First's capital spend, they may not be head of the queue (judging by 2017/8 deliveries).

Interestingly, Leicester did get five nearly new Streetlites (ex Manchester) but it's perhaps more a reflection on FGM and their state!!
 

Robertj21a

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Indeed and Norwich have also had some new deliveries but in increasingly straitened times as regards First's capital spend, they may not be head of the queue (judging by 2017/8 deliveries).

Interestingly, Leicester did get five nearly new Streetlites (ex Manchester) but it's perhaps more a reflection on FGM and their state!!

Looking back, the financials suggest that Leicester is one of their most profitable operations. That should help justify new vehicles.
 

winston270twm

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Looking back, the financials suggest that Leicester is one of their most profitable operations. That should help justify new vehicles.

You'd have thought so, Leicester seem to be in need of a large influx of new single deckers to replace the 02 plate B7L/Wright, they must be pretty tired. I'm assuming all the 05 plate B7RLE/Wright have never been refreshed inside either?
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Looking back, the financials suggest that Leicester is one of their most profitable operations. That should help justify new vehicles.

You'd have thought so too but with commitments on various LEZ/CAZ in Glasgow and Leeds, commitments (albeit reduced) for Kernow investment, Bristol with its' GBF commitments, that will soak up capital. Also, there's South Yorkshire bus partnership - remember that FSY got new vehicles despite its financial performance! Think there's also a Portsmouth area quality commitment IIRC. That's all before any other sundry requirements such as specific Park and Ride, other contracts etc.
 

winston270twm

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You'd have thought so too but with commitments on various LEZ/CAZ in Glasgow and Leeds, commitments (albeit reduced) for Kernow investment, Bristol with its' GBF commitments, that will soak up capital. Also, there's South Yorkshire bus partnership - remember that FSY got new vehicles despite its financial performance! Think there's also a Portsmouth area quality commitment IIRC. That's all before any other sundry requirements such as specific Park and Ride, other contracts etc.

I agree, but unfortunately this is the hole that First Group find themselves in..... whilst the official line is 'we will only invest where infrastructure improvements is matched with our investment', unfortunately, there are numerous cities where low emission rules are / will be coming in & other older vehicles within UK bus need replacing due to end of life, the problem will only get worse. Although not ideal, maybe First do need to look at buying ex London E400's & Volvo B9TL Gemini's 2011 vintage & above in the interim. Plus there is also Dawson's & Mistral for ex rental fleet that could be purchased E200's / Streetlites / Solo SR's etc. They can't sit of their hands forever, whilst they decide how they're going to get out of the current predicament.
 

Robertj21a

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You'd have thought so too but with commitments on various LEZ/CAZ in Glasgow and Leeds, commitments (albeit reduced) for Kernow investment, Bristol with its' GBF commitments, that will soak up capital. Also, there's South Yorkshire bus partnership - remember that FSY got new vehicles despite its financial performance! Think there's also a Portsmouth area quality commitment IIRC. That's all before any other sundry requirements such as specific Park and Ride, other contracts etc.

The council in Leicester has, I believe, also committed to a LEZ around the Haymarket Bus Station from the end of 2020.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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The council in Leicester has, I believe, also committed to a LEZ around the Haymarket Bus Station from the end of 2020.

The B7Ls should be long gone by that point (you'd love to think) though who knows about the B7RLEs. Of course, the newer ex Bristol B7RLEs were sent to Worcester to be upgraded to Euro VI for compliance with the Birmingham CAZ!! However, the Bristol, Kernow and Leeds fleets have a commitment to new vehicles whilst other places like Leicester, Norwich or Southampton have a commitment to Euro VI so always the potential to get newish cascades. As I say, whilst Bristol has a raft of older B7TLs (a number ironically ex Leicester), you could see new CNG deckers displacing stuff like Streetdecks (James Freeman seems to be an ADL man) elsewhere as well as some older fleet.

I agree, but unfortunately this is the hole that First Group find themselves in..... whilst the official line is 'we will only invest where infrastructure improvements is matched with our investment', unfortunately, there are numerous cities where low emission rules are / will be coming in & other older vehicles within UK bus need replacing due to end of life, the problem will only get worse. Although not ideal, maybe First do need to look at buying ex London E400's & Volvo B9TL Gemini's 2011 vintage & above in the interim. Plus there is also Dawson's & Mistral for ex rental fleet that could be purchased E200's / Streetlites / Solo SR's etc. They can't sit of their hands forever, whilst they decide how they're going to get out of the current predicament.

They have had form for making purchases from Ensign in the past. However, depends on the price though some 2011/2 fleet would help in balancing some of the age profile issues. However, you still need to convert back from London spec (either yourself or its reflected in the purchase price) and there are still some issues in terms of capacity on some types. There is a supreme irony when you see Faresaver in Wiltshire operating ex First B9s on the 231 Chippenham to Bath service that they pushed First off though.

At least they still have (for the moment) operations like Buses of Somerset where they can dump older fleet - it'll be a cold day in hell when Somerset CC put forward infrastructure enhancements and ask First to support them!! For Somerset, you can insert Stoke/Staffs or Worcestershire!!
 

winston270twm

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They have had form for making purchases from Ensign in the past. However, depends on the price though some 2011/2 fleet would help in balancing some of the age profile issues. However, you still need to convert back from London spec (either yourself or its reflected in the purchase price) and there are still some issues in terms of capacity on some types. There is a supreme irony when you see Faresaver in Wiltshire operating ex First B9s on the 231 Chippenham to Bath service that they pushed First off though.

At least they still have (for the moment) operations like Buses of Somerset where they can dump older fleet - it'll be a cold day in hell when Somerset CC put forward infrastructure enhancements and ask First to support them!! For Somerset, you can insert Stoke/Staffs or Worcestershire!!

I agree, Faresaver, have done well to push First out.

Used purchases should help balance the age profile in interim & prevent issues further down the line, should First stay in the current format, they will also reduce emissions, cut fuel consumptions & improve reliability / reduce maintenance costs by removing old stock. There doesn't seem much demand at present for even newer used stock, the number of 6-7 year old double deckers coming out of London surplus to requirements only seems to be growing, Tryers have just bought a big batch of 2011 x Volvo/Gemini's for schools work, therefore I can't imagine they are going for meagbucks. I assume Lothian got their batch of 50 x Volvo B9TL/Gemini's at a favourable price to warrant the extensive rebuilds undertaken by Wrightbus to bring them to Lothian spec. Otherwise, it would have been more cost effective to just buy new.

Ensign Currently have 2011 x E400's ex London dual door (First Spec interior) & 2011 x E200's single door (short) ex London (First Spec interior) & 2010 x Volvo B9TL/Gemini dual door (ex GAL)
http://www.route-one.net/magazines/emag/routeone752/page_54.html

2012 x E400 dual door ex lease here:
http://www.route-one.net/magazines/emag/routeone752/page_52.html

2011 & 2012 ex London E200's here:
https://chartwellbussales.co.uk/buses_details.php?bus=83
https://chartwellbussales.co.uk/buses_details.php?bus=88
 

Robertj21a

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Always the same, costly, problems with ex-London stock. Dual-doors and wheelchair access.
 

Surreyman

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Hard to know the real truth, recent events would seem to suggest there are more 6-7 year old vehicles coming into the second hand market, of course that may mean that older vehicles now go for scrap rather than resale, than would have been the case.
 

DragonEast

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In Essex someone needs to get the balls to push First out. It wouldn't be hard. Scheduling services right across their muddle (one really can't dignify it with the title of network) which they have neither the vehicles nor drivers for. A total mess. It's not an occasional problem, as everywhere; it's been constant for years. And then deliberately bidding at rock bottom prices for anything they can lay their hands on for the sake of it. The point of course is to "scare off" any competition. B****r the passengers. And throwing every bit of old junk they can lay their hands on into the mess, then hoping for the best and looking the other way. Typical cowboy tactics. I'm not sure whether the drivers or passengers are the more fed up to the back teeth with it. It makes BoS, Madchester, Potteries or any other of the so-called "basket cases" look competent and well-resourced. First themselves seem fed up, even the cascades all go into rural Norfolk. It isn't demand, it's operational incompetence, pure and simple. Zombies that can't be budged. First just leave them to it.

It'll run itself into the ground eventually if they wait long enough. But that laissez faire anarchy isn't what everyone tells us they're about, and, it seems, no one else in the country has to put up with it.

Generally the TC seems to have done a decent job of getting rid of the cowboys from the industry. FEx seem though to have successfully called their bluff. Why? And First Bus' bluff too. Though that's not so hard.

Of course, when anyone else can get their hands on it, there is a miraculous improvement. Blame bad bus territory if we want. The evidence is different.
 

overthewater

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Is there a single place were we can see what First group has order in new stock between 2017-2019? I get the awful feeling there still debating if they can afford to spend the money.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Is there a single place were we can see what First group has order in new stock between 2017-2019? I get the awful feeling there still debating if they can afford to spend the money.

I doubt that there is. After all, Leeds have got a commitment to have 284 new buses by the end of 2020 but no detail on how these will be phased. Similarly, no knowledge of when the 110 buses for Bristol are due (allegedly by end of 2019 though don't see it happening).
 

F Great Eastern

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First Aircoach in Dublin are due to get another 6 coaches in late 2018 or early 2019.

Recent intakes to the operation (excluding planned deliveries)
2014 - 16
2015 - 6
2016 - 6
2017 - 4
2018 - 7

Current fleet at 52 coaches, 12 bendies and 3 single decks.
 

KendalKing

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I doubt that there is. After all, Leeds have got a commitment to have 284 new buses by the end of 2020 but no detail on how these will be phased. Similarly, no knowledge of when the 110 buses for Bristol are due (allegedly by end of 2019 though don't see it happening).

Same could be said about York. A press released dated 15 June 2017, said that a number of new buses were due for the Park & Ride services. These have still not been delivered.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Bungle965

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Wasn't Transdev Harrogate awarded funding for their Electrics at the same time, which have only very recently arrived?
The buses have I believe been in the country for a while, simply sat at Volvo I believe until Harrogate bus station and the depot was modified for them to be able to handle the electrics.
Sam
 

bluenoxid

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I wont pass comment about the eight Park and Ride buses for Leeds whose funding was announced in July 2016 and only entered service in the last six months.
 

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