First Group: General Discussion

[overthewater]

But glasgow is safe, it makes plenty of money. First scotland east is a basket case and pretty soon most of will probably be gone

Why are people saying Essex will get sold? It wont i would put money on that.

 

[pemma]

Lets see if anyone can beat this;

For unlimited travel around the city of Stirling, NOTE this is just Stirling nothing else.,

First Day: £5.80
First Week £23.00

You can see the zone here: http://www.firstgroup.com/ukbus/scotland_east/assets/pdfs/tickets/Scotland_Fare_Zones_Map.pdf

its a pure and utter disgrace.....

How much is a single ticket in Stirling for a normal journey? If it's £2 I can't see them selling any First Days, while if it's £3 they certainly will sell some.

 

[Ivo]

Why are people saying Essex will get sold? It wont i would put money on that.

Who said that? Not one mention of the Essex operation in this thread until now.

 

[pemma]

I have heard talk that the following areas are the most likely area to get sold off are:

* Edinburgh
* York
* Northampton
* Chester

Yorkshire, Manchester and most of the south safe.

Would they expect to sell them to one of their main rivals (Stagecoach/Arriva) or to smaller operators - maybe GHA in the case of Chester?

 

[MCW]

Would they expect to sell them to one of their main rivals (Stagecoach/Arriva) or to smaller operators - maybe GHA in the case of Chester?

may be issues doing that with their main rivals due to competition commission regulations.

 

[radamfi]

Another option is for First to merely deregister all routes in unprofitable areas. That avoids having to find a buyer and any possible competition issiues. About 10 years ago, Arriva deregistered all their routes in East Surrey and Crawley but Metrobus merely registered a whole new network of their own. No vehicles were involved, although Metrobus took over the Crawley depot.

 

[Polarbear]

In Chester, there's not much left to sell to be honest! :roll: The depot on Liverpool Road would be worth a bit, given it's proximity to Chester city centre but the majority of the buses are clapped out 2nd hand cast off's from elsewhere in the purple empire.

Arriva would be the heir apparent, but I would expect the competition commission to get involved.

Nicholas Ridley wouldn't be impressed either - he was the Conservative minister who decided Crosville had to be split into "Welsh" & English" companies. A sell off of Chester to Arriva would more or less put it all back together again (albeit with many fewer routes than in tilling green days).

GHA could go for for some of the routes, (route 3 Chester - Rivacre springs to mind as it's marginal profit-wise with First) but I doubt they'd have the finance to buy the whole operation.

 

[radamfi]

Nicholas Ridley wouldn't be impressed either - he was the Conservative minister who decided Crosville had to be split into "Welsh" & English" companies. A sell off of Chester to Arriva would more or less put it all back together again (albeit with many fewer routes than in tilling green days).

Well he lived long enough to see the establishment of the mega groups. I'm not convinced that he didn't forsee the consolidation that happened. The biggest joke was the splitting of Bristol city and country routes into City Line and Badgerline, only for them to merge again within a couple of years.

 

[tbtc]

Nicholas Ridley wouldn't be impressed either - he was the Conservative minister who decided Crosville had to be split into "Welsh" & English" companies. A sell off of Chester to Arriva would more or less put it all back together again (albeit with many fewer routes than in tilling green days)

Well he lived long enough to see the establishment of the mega groups. I'm not convinced that he didn't forsee the consolidation that happened. The biggest joke was the splitting of Bristol city and country routes into City Line and Badgerline, only for them to merge again within a couple of years.

See also Eastern Scottish (split into Lowland, Eastern and bits to Midland and Central, now all run by one company again) etc.

 

[pemma]

Arriva would be the heir apparent, but I would expect the competition commission to get involved.

....

GHA could go for for some of the routes, (route 3 Chester - Rivacre springs to mind as it's marginal profit-wise with First) but I doubt they'd have the finance to buy the whole operation.

Sounds like a possible solution is similar to The Huddersfield Bus Company where a smaller operator buys the operations with financial assistance from a large company who own a minority stake. In the case of the Huddersfield Stagecoach operations, it was brought by a company owned 60% by Centrebus and 40% by Arriva. Not that the competition commission would have prevented Arriva from taking Huddersfield routes under the Arriva name.

 

[overthewater]

Its now seems First will now Sell off 12% within the next 10 months, instead of 10%.

 

[anthony263]

Its now seems First will now Sell off 12% within the next 10 months, instead of 10%.

I wonder with all the loses First are making in South Wales if it will be one of the operations to go.

I am sure we will be more than happy to welcome Stagecoach should they decide to do as it is rumoured and that is to exapnd their south wales operations westwards.

It was in the South Wales evening post about First cymru withdrawing nearly all the bus service in Swansea on a sunday after 19:00 and heavly reducing frequencies.

One reason why is that they say passenger numbers are falling - which in my opinion is that people simply cannot afford to keep paying the fare increases (Something I partial blame the OAP's with their bus pases for)

 

[MCW]

I wonder with all the loses First are making in South Wales if it will be one of the operations to go.

I am sure we will be more than happy to welcome Stagecoach should they decide to do as it is rumoured and that is to exapnd their south wales operations westwards.

It was in the South Wales evening post about First cymru withdrawing nearly all the bus service in Swansea on a sunday after 19:00 and heavly reducing frequencies.

One reason why is that they say passenger numbers are falling - which in my opinion is that people simply cannot afford to keep paying the fare increases (Something I partial blame the OAP's with their bus pases for)

Well considering how sparce the villages and such can be in some areas of wales, it is just a typical move by a bus company to charge more and more for a service, because they know people will be dependent on that service and have basically got people by the scrotum, excuse the reference.

also I partially agree with the OAP passes, However, as much as I don't like supporting the passes since I am a full time working 19 year old man who has to pay regular expensiveish fares, I have to stand up and say that actually, a bus full of Concessionary pass holders is actually better news than half a bus of paying passengers, that's what has been said by a senior figure of two bus companies I talk to and work with.

 

[Schnellzug]

Well considering how sparce the villages and such can be in some areas of wales, it is just a typical move by a bus company to charge more and more for a service, because they know people will be dependent on that service and have basically got people by the scrotum, excuse the reference.

also I partially agree with the OAP passes, However, as much as I don't like supporting the passes since I am a full time working 19 year old man who has to pay regular expensiveish fares, I have to stand up and say that actually, a bus full of Concessionary pass holders is actually better news than half a bus of paying passengers, that's what has been said by a senior figure of two bus companies I talk to and work with.

Except there are no seats for fare paying passengers, and they always scowl and tut if you dare to open a window.
Is it fair that people who don't pay should have a seat, but people who do pay sometimes don't get a seat? That doesn't seem fair to me.

 

[tbtc]

Except there are no seats for fare paying passengers, and they always scowl and tut if you dare to open a window.
Is it fair that people who don't pay should have a seat, but people who do pay sometimes don't get a seat? That doesn't seem fair to me.

Its similar to trains, where someone on a £5 advanced ticket gets a seat reservation whilst someone on a £100 standard open ticket doesn't (and potentially has to stand) - a bane of the Cross Country network

 

[MCW]

Except there are no seats for fare paying passengers, and they always scowl and tut if you dare to open a window.
Is it fair that people who don't pay should have a seat, but people who do pay sometimes don't get a seat? That doesn't seem fair to me.

will reply in full when at home later but yeah iagree with you

 

[Schnellzug]

incidentally, going back to the subject of First, it looks as if Dorset might be one area where there is in fact currently some modest expansion: http://d-bus.blogspot.co.uk/2012_05_01_archive.html

And also, it said in the paper the other day (there were no details as yet, and i expect I won't be able to find it again) that they seem to have got a helping of money from some sort of fund or other from the Government for enhancements and improvements to the Weymouth-Dorchester service, which certainly would not be before time.

 

[overthewater]

Well that area of first has seen its profits sky rocket.

 

[317 forever]

I reckon First will in several cases just dump the network and allow a neighbour to register alternative networks. This is happening in Dalkeith and East Lothian, where Lothian Buses are expanding their network to take over some routes in the area. Where First have committed to a divestment, in particular Barnstaple to Stagecoach, this is being delayed by the referral to the Competition Commission.

Dumping as against selling a network will also speeden up withdrawal of oldest or non-DDA compliant vehicles.

 

[pemma]

Its similar to trains, where someone on a £5 advanced ticket gets a seat reservation whilst someone on a £100 standard open ticket doesn't (and potentially has to stand) - a bane of the Cross Country network

Not really the same.

The person with a £5 advance ticket on the train has a ticket which has no flexibility as they are restricted to using one off-peak service and if they change their mind they have to buy a new full price ticket. The person with a £100 ticket can travel on any peak or off-peak train.

Whereas, on the bus the person with an off-peak day ticket has more restrictions on travel than the pensioner travelling for free on their pass.

Stagecoach claimed they actually lose money in Sheffield as a result of their buses being filled up by pensioners travelling for free and people who would pay being unable to board and then travelling with someone else.

 

[DaveHarries]

Where First have committed to a divestment, in particular Barnstaple to Stagecoach [.....]

It would be interesting to see what happens if the CC fail to approve this.

If First D&C declined to take back the Barnstaple operations and Stagecoach SouthWest can't take them over then perhaps the only lot who might step in would be Western Greyhound who might take Barnstaple over as an outstation...? Filers might do it too but who knows.....

Anyone have an idea when the decision of the CC is likely to be known?

Dave

 

[mbonwick]

The CC are not involved (yet).

The sale has been referred to the Office for Fair Trading, who are now deciding whether to refer it to the Competition Commission. The deadline for submissions of interest was 15th May so a decision cannot be far off.

 

[overthewater]

There really are not letting anything out of the bag at this moment of time,
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
http://www.flickr.com/photos/fwc439h/7185518609/

Thats Essex sage

 

[Ivo]

That livery is awful. Trust Essex to turn something bad into something truly horrendous. The worst part is the blank gap between the headlights - that just looks wrong. I would also dread seeing one of those Solos on a non-city route, given they've seen fit to add the word "City" - just days after it became official.

Actually it isn't too bad; it suits Solos quite well (besides the headlights issue). But it's not as though Chelmsford is exclusively Solo-operated...

What it does mean, in relation to this thread, is that the general consensus that Essex is safe from the sell-off seems to be correct.

 

[overthewater]

Bingo,

Why waste money on repaints of your going to flog off the depot!

 

[Schnellzug]

Bingo,

Why waste money on repaints of your going to flog off the depot!

Although you can just transfer them elsewhere and would just need to change the lettering. The lettering, incidentally, I think is definitely the worst part, it would be fairly unobjectionable, if not particularly exciting, otherwise.

 

[90019]

It would appear that First have been transferring and scrapping some buses a bit too soon.




(Not my photos)

 

[317 forever]

This is a buona fide Lothian Buses Volvo B9TL. I think it is just that First have closed the operation prior to the deregistration taking effect. So it is being treated as being on hire from Lothian Buses to First Scotland East.

 

[90019]

This is a buona fide Lothian Buses Volvo B9TL.

I know, I work for them.
It was only for a week, though, and First are now back to using their own buses again.

I think it is just that First have closed the operation prior to the deregistration taking effect. So it is being treated as being on hire from Lothian Buses to First Scotland East.

Only the buses were Lothian, it was Firstbus drivers who were driving them.
Currently, the 18 is operated by Lothian in the morning and evening and by First during the day Monday to Friday, and by First all day Saturday and Sunday.

 

[bb21]

Only the buses were Lothian, it was Firstbus drivers who were driving them.
Currently, the 18 is operated by Lothian in the morning and evening and by First during the day Monday to Friday, and by First all day Saturday and Sunday.

Is it a supported route?