First Group: General Discussion

[F Great Eastern]

The Travel shops are good. So they can do it. Not the operational side though, apparently. The First quandry, perhaps. According to the local OpCo their priority over the last couple of years has been the appearance of their buses and staff, and the reliability . . . ??? OK we understand about the reliability; but the rest of it seems to have had the opposite effect. Look across the border at First Ipswich which has to rely on refurbs and paint jobs (and has more competition and a less bus friendly environment, at least for First) and it's a completely different story. Perhaps they've just had to try harder. Weird.

First in Ipswich has been much better the last couple of years, they have a much more presentable fleet in much better condition both inside and outside, better links with the community, more of a customer focus and generally are said to be performing better in all areas, sadly the independent Ipswich buses over the past few years has been on the decline.

 

[mbonwick]

Stagecoach still had Olympians in normal every day service, in February this year.

In very small numbers, and none in "normal" service - all were for school time workings on ordinary routes. So 2/3 workings at most per day.

 

[baza585]

First Bus still have an ageing fleet compared to Stagecoach and other large groups. It wouldn't be too bad if old buses were refurbished and repainted, but they are often a mess and an uncomfortable experience. I'm not sure whether reducing the fleet age would have an impact on profitability, but it would improve the passenger experience.

In the absence of any definitive announcement re First's 2017 order (which may possibly be due to the delay in announcing the contracts for Metrobus in Bristol), my mind wanders as to what they may contain.

If I were running First's UK bus division, my priorities would be to eliminate the ex London Tridents (there are about 300 of these I believe) and the Volvo B7L "toilet boxes" (about 250) which seem to be the bane of most fleets that have them. Not saying that they will be directly replaced with new stock, much more likely indirectly via cascades of mid life stock from fleets getting the new kit. Given the numbers of each, I would expect elimination to take 2-3 years and of course there will be other requirements (e.g. a number of First's Solos are getting old in the tooth) but that's the general thrust I would expect.

In terms of new kit, I'd expect a mix of long Streetlites/E200MMCs and a mix of Streetdecks/E400MMCs (possibly some on Scania chassis for long high speed routes like the X1 in East Anglia).

Just my musings. Thoughts anyone?

 

[Volvodart]

It is probable the order announcement will be made in some form by the financial year results announcement on Thursday.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

In the absence of any definitive announcement re First's 2017 order (which may possibly be due to the delay in announcing the contracts for Metrobus in Bristol), my mind wanders as to what they may contain.

If I were running First's UK bus division, my priorities would be to eliminate the ex London Tridents (there are about 300 of these I believe) and the Volvo B7L "toilet boxes" (about 250) which seem to be the bane of most fleets that have them. Not saying that they will be directly replaced with new stock, much more likely indirectly via cascades of mid life stock from fleets getting the new kit. Given the numbers of each, I would expect elimination to take 2-3 years and of course there will be other requirements (e.g. a number of First's Solos are getting old in the tooth) but that's the general thrust I would expect.

In terms of new kit, I'd expect a mix of long Streetlites/E200MMCs and a mix of Streetdecks/E400MMCs (possibly some on Scania chassis for long high speed routes like the X1 in East Anglia).

Just my musings. Thoughts anyone?

Naturally we'd expect to see it focussed on ADL 200 and 400. Not expecting much for Wright so similar to last year.

Bristol is perhaps why the order is being delayed with no Metrobus announcement until after the election?

I did predict e200mmc for Kernow (but not e400) and a sizeable Bristol order irrespective of any Metrobus award. Leeds is due a chunk too but guess we won't have too much longer to wait

 

[Robertj21a]

In the absence of any definitive announcement re First's 2017 order (which may possibly be due to the delay in announcing the contracts for Metrobus in Bristol), my mind wanders as to what they may contain.

If I were running First's UK bus division, my priorities would be to eliminate the ex London Tridents (there are about 300 of these I believe) and the Volvo B7L "toilet boxes" (about 250) which seem to be the bane of most fleets that have them. Not saying that they will be directly replaced with new stock, much more likely indirectly via cascades of mid life stock from fleets getting the new kit. Given the numbers of each, I would expect elimination to take 2-3 years and of course there will be other requirements (e.g. a number of First's Solos are getting old in the tooth) but that's the general thrust I would expect.

In terms of new kit, I'd expect a mix of long Streetlites/E200MMCs and a mix of Streetdecks/E400MMCs (possibly some on Scania chassis for long high speed routes like the X1 in East Anglia).

Just my musings. Thoughts anyone?

Given a number of problems with Streetlites and Streetdecks I wouldn't be surprised to see none ordered whatsoever. The big order for them was 2 years ago - wasn't it very low last year ?

 

[ARN556B]

In very small numbers, and none in "normal" service - all were for school time workings on ordinary routes. So 2/3 workings at most per day.

Most companies still operate Olympian type vehicles on schools / closed contract work.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Given a number of problems with Streetlites and Streetdecks I wouldn't be surprised to see none ordered whatsoever. The big order for them was 2 years ago - wasn't it very low last year ?

The number of Streetdecks was fairly reasonable with 71 for Leeds, Norwich and Leicester.

However, only 20 Streetlites for First South Yorkshire vs 71 e200mmc.

 

[90sWereBetter]

As part of my Scotland trip in the next fortnight, I'm planning a day in Glasgow. What are the best routes in the city to find Tridents (particularly the X and Y reg Presidents they still have), Marshall Darts (as they can't be long for this world) and B10BLEs?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

In very small numbers, and none in "normal" service - all were for school time workings on ordinary routes. So 2/3 workings at most per day.

I think the Northampton ones did regularly work certain services albeit the less onerous ones!

One of the problems for First is a skewed age profile with a large number of deliveries in the period 1998 to 2005 but then underinvestment in the years to 2012, and much of that was in London. Stagecoach did have a similar issue in 2000-4 but they acted sooner and it wasn't as severe.

Bristol is perhaps a good illustration of First's proble. The city fleet (i.e. not those running in from Bath or Weston) has a substantial number of B7TLs from 2000-3. There were a some of decent batches of Darts and B9s in 2006-9 but nothing really (for standard fleet replacement) until 2013 when the Streetlites began.

The sins of the past will take some time to unravel

 

[oldman]

Usual rather downbeat stuff from First's Full year results:

First Bus like-for-like passenger revenue (0.6)% with continued demand challenges across the industry; cost control actions partially mitigated the margin impact of currency fluctuations on our fuel costs

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Usual rather downbeat stuff from First's Full year results:

Consistent with Stagecoach's results and the general challenges with the industry.

 

[DragonEast]

Might just be interesting, the stated re-commitment to locally tailored actions for individual UK Bus OpCos. Perhaps puts the kibosh on the discussion about blanket across-the-board cuts? Doesn't give anything away, either. No big announcements (even perhaps on bus orders) bus as so far things will just appear (or hopefully less likely, disappear) locally. Will be changes, as there should be; but perhaps sensible and rational rather than panic ones, despite the emotional upset we in the UK are perhaps prone to.

 

[THarris123]

I wonder if the depot closures and regular annual fare and service changes are having an impact on revenue?

 

[THarris123]

Well its that time of year again where we start off the guessing of what the new vehicle order will be and where the vehicles will end up.

I initially thought at the beginning of the year that Aberdeen, West of England, Cymru, East England, Glasgow, Hampshire, Manchester and Yorkshire would be due new kit.

I have had a bit of rethink though. So my guess is the following:-
20 new vehicles to Aberdeen (either all long E200s or half E200s and half E400s)
10 new coaches to Aircoach
60 new vehicles to West of England (25 E400s to Bristol for Metrobus, 14 Scania E400s for Bristol Airport, 3 E200s for Weston Airport flyer and about 16 to Bath, mixture of deckers and singles)
20 new E400s to Kernow (known)
30 new vehicles to East England (mostly for Norwich and Chelmsford, mixture of deckers, singles)
10 new singles for Leicester
50 new vehicles for Glasgow (about 30 deckers and 20 singles)
10 new vehicles for Hampshire (but I'm a bit unsure of this one)
30 new vehicles for Manchester (17 deckers, 13 singles)
20 new singles for South Yorkshire
110 new vehicles for West Yorkshire (known that Leeds will get a rather large batch of new stuff)

 

[Robertj21a]

Well its that time of year again where we start off the guessing of what the new vehicle order will be and where the vehicles will end up.

I initially thought at the beginning of the year that Aberdeen, West of England, Cymru, East England, Glasgow, Hampshire, Manchester and Yorkshire would be due new kit.

I have had a bit of rethink though. So my guess is the following:-
20 new vehicles to Aberdeen (either all long E200s or half E200s and half E400s)
10 new coaches to Aircoach
60 new vehicles to West of England (25 E400s to Bristol for Metrobus, 14 Scania E400s for Bristol Airport, 3 E200s for Weston Airport flyer and about 16 to Bath, mixture of deckers and singles)
20 new E400s to Kernow (known)
30 new vehicles to East England (mostly for Norwich and Chelmsford, mixture of deckers, singles)
10 new singles for Leicester
50 new vehicles for Glasgow (about 30 deckers and 20 singles)
10 new vehicles for Hampshire (but I'm a bit unsure of this one)
30 new vehicles for Manchester (17 deckers, 13 singles)
20 new singles for South Yorkshire
110 new vehicles for West Yorkshire (known that Leeds will get a rather large batch of new stuff)

You are going to be wildly (very) inaccurate !

 

[Kuyoyo]

Indeed, as it's been reported elsewhere that Sheffield (South Yorkshire) are due 26 new Streetlites for their share of the SQP route 1a between High Green and Hemsworth (First's continues to Headings and then onwards as the 56) alongside the 18 examples due for Stagecoach.

 

[overthewater]

It seems First are trying to interact with customers again. I got an email:

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The Customer First Hub is an online community run by Join The Dots, an independent Market Research company. Fancy becoming a member? Click the link below to complete your first survey and start having your voice heard by First Bus.

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Look out for more emails from us soon, in the meantime we hope to see you on the Customer First Hub community!

You can also take the Survey here: https://survey.euro.confirmit.com/wix/0/p1857163210.aspx

PLEASE do say if you get accepted, i never got in.

 

[THarris123]

Indeed, as it's been reported elsewhere that Sheffield (South Yorkshire) are due 26 new Streetlites for their share of the SQP route 1a between High Green and Hemsworth (First's continues to Headings and then onwards as the 56) alongside the 18 examples due for Stagecoach.

Ok so I was 6 out.

 

[THarris123]

You are going to be wildly (very) inaccurate !

Why will I be wildly very inaccurate?

 

[Robertj21a]

Why will I be wildly very inaccurate?

Let's wait and see.

 

[KendalKing]

Well its that time of year again where we start off the guessing of what the new vehicle order will be and where the vehicles will end up.

I initially thought at the beginning of the year that Aberdeen, West of England, Cymru, East England, Glasgow, Hampshire, Manchester and Yorkshire would be due new kit.

I have had a bit of rethink though. So my guess is the following:-
20 new vehicles to Aberdeen (either all long E200s or half E200s and half E400s)
10 new coaches to Aircoach
60 new vehicles to West of England (25 E400s to Bristol for Metrobus, 14 Scania E400s for Bristol Airport, 3 E200s for Weston Airport flyer and about 16 to Bath, mixture of deckers and singles)
20 new E400s to Kernow (known)
30 new vehicles to East England (mostly for Norwich and Chelmsford, mixture of deckers, singles)
10 new singles for Leicester
50 new vehicles for Glasgow (about 30 deckers and 20 singles)
10 new vehicles for Hampshire (but I'm a bit unsure of this one)
30 new vehicles for Manchester (17 deckers, 13 singles)
20 new singles for South Yorkshire
110 new vehicles for West Yorkshire (known that Leeds will get a rather large batch of new stuff)

York are expecting 18 Double Deckers, 8 Single Deckers, 3 Electric Double Deckers, and 6 Bendies.

 

[mbonwick]

I think the Northampton ones did regularly work certain services albeit the less onerous ones!

They did, but the post I was responding to was about Olympian usage after the DDA deadline. Midland's Olympians didn't make it beyond December 2016.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

They did, but the post I was responding to was about Olympian usage after the DDA deadline. Midland's Olympians didn't make it beyond December 2016.

Apologies - you're quite right.

 

[THarris123]

York are expecting 18 Double Deckers, 8 Single Deckers, 3 Electric Double Deckers, and 6 Bendies.

Thanks for confirming.

So my guessing needs a bit of adjustment.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Why will I be wildly very inaccurate?

I know that you did say it was guesswork but some does look a bit arbitrary?

For instance, Manchester gets 30 with a 17/13 split DD/SD - why?

As for South Yorkshire, being only 6 out is actually quite high in percentage terms and it does only relate to one route. Who knows if we might see some for Donny?

FWIW, there has been the large announcement for 284 vehicles for Leeds (2017 to 2020) but how that is structured from year to year, we don't know. We have some snippets for WoE because of the Airport wins - what else, we don't know though Metrobus will undoubtedly be pivotal.

Kernow we know has 20 deckers and an unspecified smaller number of single deckers.

Sure the picture will become apparent and I do wonder if the Purdah rules with the election and Metrobus are perhaps the reason why no announcement has been made.

 

[ooo]

It seems First are trying to interact with customers again. I got an email:



You can also take the Survey here: https://survey.euro.confirmit.com/wix/0/p1857163210.aspx

PLEASE do say if you get accepted, i never got in.

I have become a member. The two topics being consulted on at the moment are Park and Ride services and Timetables

 

[FSW Official]

I know that you did say it was guesswork but some does look a bit arbitrary?

For instance, Manchester gets 30 with a 17/13 split DD/SD - why?

As for South Yorkshire, being only 6 out is actually quite high in percentage terms and it does only relate to one route. Who knows if we might see some for Donny?

FWIW, there has been the large announcement for 284 vehicles for Leeds (2017 to 2020) but how that is structured from year to year, we don't know. We have some snippets for WoE because of the Airport wins - what else, we don't know though Metrobus will undoubtedly be pivotal.

Kernow we know has 20 deckers and an unspecified smaller number of single deckers.

Sure the picture will become apparent and I do wonder if the Purdah rules with the election and Metrobus are perhaps the reason why no announcement has been made.

No, Kernow has 20 E400s. There is no confirmation of any E200s. The word used was potentially.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

No, Kernow has 20 E400s. There is no confirmation of any E200s. The word used was potentially.

Sorry for that and apologies for trying to ink that in

 

[Strathclyder]

As part of my Scotland trip in the next fortnight, I'm planning a day in Glasgow. What are the best routes in the city to find Tridents (particularly the X and Y reg Presidents they still have), Marshall Darts (as they can't be long for this world) and B10BLEs?

I have taken the liberty of detailing present operations of the above types in the network as a whole below. They are all quite well spread out, to say the least...

• X/Y-reg Tridents - Not too many of these older Tridents left, but the 21 (City Centre - Cathkin/Gardenhall) & 46 (Castlemilk - Easterhouse) are generally your best bets on weekdays, the former in particular. The younger 51/02/53-reg examples are generally spread out across the city network; with the 19/19A, 31, 41, 60/60A & 61 all being the most prominent Trident-operated routes in the city.
  
  
• Marshall Darts - Their numbers have dwindled over the past 24 months or so, but there are still a decent number of these in service; primarily 51-reg examples, with at least 3 X-reg stragglers. Clydebank (on the city's western edge) is their last remaining stronghold, with the M60 & 81 being their main routes. A handful also operate out in Hamilton/Motherwell in Lanarkshire, for how much longer is anyone's guess...
  
  
• B10BLEs - FiG have at least 40 B10BLEs still on the go, with them primarily concentrated on Lanarkshire local services (in Motherwell in particular) & Dumbartonshire. Few still make it into the city centre proper; the 263 to/from Hamilton being the only guaranteed route these days. B7RLEs & E300s have become more common as of late however, so expect anything to pop up there.

Hope this overly detailed post is of at least some use to you lol