Fitting Diesel engines to EMUs

[TheWalrus]

I was wondering with the 769/230 projects and many new EMUs due to come off lease soon (i.e. 707s), what would be the possibility of fitting Diesel engines to these and using as a bi-mode like the 769s? Or pantographs? It could help find a new home for them as otherwise it seems a waste.

 

[physics34]

anythings possible if u want an easy answer!

you can imagine leasing companies are working overtime to find secondary uses for their returned stock. If the 319s can be treated, then why cant 455s, 456s, 321s, 317s etc.

either 379s, 707s, or 458s will probably go to southern to replace their 455s...or the SE 377s come back to southern and one of these others go to SE...or even the 365sl

 

[anthony263]

Was talk of some 377s being converted to bi modes for southern

 

[TheWalrus]

Was talk of some 377s being converted to bi modes for southern

Would make sense for Uckfield.

 

[superkev]

I think you need to take care with your choice of doner emu.
1. Needs to be lightweight aluminium (eg not a steel 319) as diesels non too powerful.
2. Strong enough to support a proper engine (not multiple Ford transit units)
So whats left? A 313/314/315 etc would seem to fit the bill.
K

 

[big all]

units off the 319/455 era and the underground units for the 230 are ideal for conversion as you have minimal equipment and connections to relocate underneath
so adding a battery/generator/engine module is easier and cheaper

 

[43096]

How many times have we been over this now? One for the bin. Or the speculative ideas area.

 

[hooverboy]

units off the 319/455 era and the underground units for the 230 are ideal for conversion as you have minimal equipment and connections to relocate underneath
so adding a battery/generator/engine module is easier and cheaper

it should all be modular:

750VDC can be connected directly via shoegear and fed to battery.
25kv AC needs to be stepped down to and rectified/regulated to 750VDC = 1 module.
diesel genset also needs alternator+ rectifier for 750VDC = 1 module(needs control to maintain output under load)
supercapacitor/battery will store 750VDC to supply invertors/thyristors/frequency convertors to traction motors = 1 module

if unit has DC traction motors,then it would probably be a good idea to replace with AC as they are lower maintainance and require less power applied for the same torque.
Leaving as DC will only give you about a half the acceleration under diesel power-which is not good on routes with high stop-start requirements or steep inclines to traverse.
(rough calculation for class 321 is 4*350HP motors under electric power, so a 422HP turbostar engine is about 1/3 output)...But if coupled up to 313 traction motors would probably work!

likewise voyager/180 engine coupled to 317 body+running gear should also suffice.Good for 75-90mph.
might be an option if grand central plan on dumping the 180's.Maybe vivarail can do a cut+shut on 180+317/45X'S.

 

[physics34]

I think you need to take care with your choice of doner emu.
1. Needs to be lightweight aluminium (eg not a steel 319) as diesels non too powerful.
2. Strong enough to support a proper engine (not multiple Ford transit units)
So whats left? A 313/314/315 etc would seem to fit the bill.
K

Pretty certain the PEP family will be going straight to the scrapheap

 

[superkev]

it should all be modular:

750VDC can be connected directly via shoegear and fed to battery.
25kv AC needs to be stepped down to and rectified/regulated to 750VDC = 1 module.
diesel genset also needs alternator+ rectifier for 750VDC = 1 module(needs control to maintain output under load)
supercapacitor/battery will store 750VDC to supply invertors/thyristors/frequency convertors to traction motors = 1 module

if unit has DC traction motors,then it would probably be a good idea to replace with AC as they are lower maintainance and require less power applied for the same torque.
Leaving as DC will only give you about a half the acceleration under diesel power-which is not good on routes with high stop-start requirements or steep inclines to traverse.
(rough calculation for class 321 is 4*350HP motors under electric power, so a 422HP turbostar engine is about 1/3 output)...But if coupled up to 313 traction motors would probably work!

likewise voyager/180 engine coupled to 317 body+running gear should also suffice.Good for 75-90mph.
might be an option if grand central plan on dumping the 180's.Maybe vivarail can do a cut+shut on 180+317/45X'S.

And plus the firewall, extinguishing system and tons of fuel hung under coaches which where designed for very little. Also a huge paper chase with the various safety Talibans. Difficult as Brush have found out.

Perhaps buying some of the Stadlier Flirt 4 wheeled power modules may be a solution worth considering.
K

 

[Mogster]

All this messing around, mostly with 30 year old end of life units. How long are they actually going to be in service after they’ve been reconfigured, even if they are useable, which is doubtful.

What’s needed are new trains.

 

[trash80]

It has been mentioned that the 455s could be bi-moded after the 319/769 if it proves a success

 

[delticdave]

All this messing around, mostly with 30 year old end of life units. How long are they actually going to be in service after they’ve been reconfigured, even if they are useable, which is doubtful.

What’s needed are new trains.

Please define "end of life".

New = better?

Maybe not, very few of the recent "new" fleets have entered service without teething problems, (or worse).
If an existing train is safe, reliable, & capable of being life extended then refurbishing / improving it could provide passengers with desirable trains for less money.
My local railway is due to have it's trains replaced by new Bombardier units, (which are too long for the branch bays at Wickford) which will be delivered late & probably won't work!

 

[TheWalrus]

I was thinking when I posted this thread more about the 707s which are due to be replaced at 2 years old rather than converting older stock.

So how easy would it be to convert 707s to a) overhead power and b) bi-mode with Diesel engines?

 

[hooverboy]

I was thinking when I posted this thread more about the 707s which are due to be replaced at 2 years old rather than converting older stock.

So how easy would it be to convert 707s to a) overhead power and b) bi-mode with Diesel engines?

class 707 conversion to dual mode 25kvac/750vdc is an easy mod.in fact they were originally dual mode

for dual mode 750vdc/diesel ,there's a resonable amount of space under coaches 2 and 4,so something like 1*769 engine(523bhp) in each of those should provide sufficient power for a suburban operation as long as you're only running up to 75/90mph

 

[swt_passenger]

I was thinking when I posted this thread more about the 707s which are due to be replaced at 2 years old rather than converting older stock.

So how easy would it be to convert 707s to a) overhead power?

Two units were delivered with pans and transformers etc. fitted and were type tested on the GN. All of them are capable of dual operation by design, as soon as the additional equipment is fitted.

 

[Ethano92]

How many times have we been over this now? One for the bin. Or the speculative ideas area.

Note how nobody cared. Evidently it's a topic people want to discuss. I understand people suggesting to move a thread but no need to just tell people they shouldn't discuss it. You could at least link to a previous thread about the same topic

 

[Mogster]

Please define "end of life".

New = better?

Maybe not, very few of the recent "new" fleets have entered service without teething problems, (or worse).
If an existing train is safe, reliable, & capable of being life extended then refurbishing / improving it could provide passengers with desirable trains for less money.
My local railway is due to have it's trains replaced by new Bombardier units, (which are too long for the branch bays at Wickford) which will be delivered late & probably won't work!

Really? Some of the stock mentioned is 40 years old, 40 years... We aren’t talking about comfy Mk3 coaches either but antiquated metro stock like 319s. I’m not sure anyone would class a journey on a 319 in 2019 as desirable either. As a daily Northern traveller I have to add the caveat that obviously any train is better than no train though...

Most of the problems with new stock seem to be down to Victorian infrastructure and zero investment even with increasing passenger numbers.

 

[TheWalrus]

Note how nobody cared. Evidently it's a topic people want to discuss. I understand people suggesting to move a thread but no need to just tell people they shouldn't discuss it. You could at least link to a previous thread about the same topic

Also I haven’t mentioned or seen 707s mentioned recently on the forum!

Note how nobody cared. Evidently it's a topic people want to discuss. I understand people suggesting to move a thread but no need to just tell people they shouldn't discuss it. You could at least link to a previous thread about the same topic

 

[Bletchleyite]

Perhaps buying some of the Stadlier Flirt 4 wheeled power modules may be a solution worth considering.

Or just buy some FLIRTs and bin the old EMUs. That's about as sensible as whacking a Class 68 on the end.

 

[TheWalrus]

Or just buy some FLIRTs and bin the old EMUs. That's about as sensible as whacking a Class 68 on the end.

The 707s are not even 2 years old yet!

 

[Bletchleyite]

The 707s are not even 2 years old yet!

I'm sure somewhere can be found for those as EMUs, quite possibly Southeastern or Southern allowing 455s to be scrapped.

 

[js1000]

It helped the 769 project enormously that there was a great big space under the 319s end carriages to mount diesel engines. Same can't be said of many other units.

 

[Ih8earlies]

I get that a lot of the issues with adding diesel engines to modernish EMU are related to the distribution of necessary equipment under each of the vehicles.

Would it be feasible to take an EMU such as a 350 (just as an example) and add 1 or 2 center vehicles from another unit. These vehicles could then be stripped of anything duplicated on the original and still intact unit being added to to make room for as much diesel and or even battery tech as can be squeezed in?

Sure, it would leave a bunch of end cars not being used - but could that be a workaround that could result in longer units and bimode capabilities?

 

[Bletchleyite]

With batteries, as distinct from diesel engines, it wouldn't be too difficult to have them above floor in distributed locations through the unit.

 

[big all]

With batteries, as distinct from diesel engines, it wouldn't be too difficult to have them above floor in distributed locations through the unit.

havent got a clue as to the volume off batteries required to give a useful level off power and possible amounts off monitoring and off cooling and fire suppression requirement
but perhaps if you have 4 or 6 stacks within a unit to store suitcases floor to ceiling height perhaps a plinth at the base perhaps 10" high or about a suitcase size would give a useful size or bank off power within those floor spaces
micromanaging batteries may prove expensive and time consuminging in small numbers if condition and full monitoring including heat dispersal and fire suppression is required
but i dont know just a guess

 

[AlastairFraser]

I was wondering with the 769/230 projects and many new EMUs due to come off lease soon (i.e. 707s), what would be the possibility of fitting Diesel engines to these and using as a bi-mode like the 769s? Or pantographs? It could help find a new home for them as otherwise it seems a waste.

It seems like a good idea as a stopgap to do this to all the 3rd rail emus excluding the 707's until new trains can be delivered to boost capacity, but don't assume it's going to be an easy project as Brush have found out with the 769 project. It might be also worth starting to look into Battery technology but that is a work in progress too.

 

[AM9]

... We aren’t talking about comfy Mk3 coaches either but antiquated metro stock like 319s. ...

Well, class 319s are MKIII coaches and they are designed to carry passengers in metro/suburban service.

 

[AM9]

... but don't assume it's going to be an easy project as Brush have found out with the 769 project. It might be also worth starting to look into Battery technology but that is a work in progress too.

The successful tests by Brush seem to indicate that the major issues have been overcome so it could be that MKIII EMUs are the best candidates for conversion.

 

[grumpyoldman01]

The Bi-mode FLIRTs for Greater Anglia are, basically, an amalgamation of two British developments of the 1930s.

Many Argentinian railways were operated by British companies, including the Buenos Aires Great Southern Railway; round about 1930, it planned a staged process of electrification using EMUs powered by Mobile Power Houses built by Armstrong Whitworth in Newcastle. These did have some traction motors for independent propulsion, but power was also supplied to motors fitted to the EMUs; the power houses were single-ended, and semi-permanently coupled to the EMUs with which they worked.

Also in the 1930s, Walker Bros of Wigan developed the articulated power unit principle; this is probably best known for the single ended vehicles built for the County Donegal Railway in Ireland, but some double ended units were built for the GNR(I) - I think they were numbered D, E, F and G. These had a central power unit (again, I'm not sure, but I think D and E had six wheeled units and F and G had four wheeled ones), and un-powered driving saloons were articulated either side of the central powered unit. This was developed further after World War II, and Victorian Railways operated a fleet of what were known as Walker Railmotors; some were single cars (basically broad gauge versions of the Co Donegal ones), but some were double-ended 3-unit articulated sets, the centre car carrying two Gardner 8LW 140hp diesel engines, each one mounted above floor level.

So IF there is sufficient life left in the Mk III derived EMU sets to make it financially sensible, could they be used as a basis for some "new" bi-mode sets, using underframes from "Pacers" for intermediate vehicles carrying either diesel alternator sets or battery packs? These should be positioned within the train formation (say between vehicles 2 and 3), but if a single pack doesn't produce enough power, could a second be added and have them between vehicles 1 and 2 and 3 and 4? Would a 4-car set with two battery pack vehicles be able to operate the Buxton branch, for example?

The 'Renatus' re-builds have shown what can be done, but - bearing in mind the problems Brush have experienced with the class 769s - it might be best to do a complete renewal of the electric traction system using 3-phase drives; using intermediate generator/battery-pack vehicles, might something suitable for, say, the Windermere branch be produced using 317/319/321/322 EMUs as a base, with 455s being used to produce DC bi-modes to replace Southern's 'Turbostars'. Perhaps even a sexy front-end could be added to make the re-builds look "new" !

We must also remember that there are many newer vehicles soon coming off-lease, which already have air-conditioning; these include the 14 class 332 sets, which - with their rounded front-ends - already look "modern". Could these be rebuilt as bi-modes with intermediate 'Pacer' underframed-based battery-packs to operate services such as northern connect between Manchester Airport and Barrow/Windermere?

Discuss !!!!!