Five-car Overground Class 378's

[The Ham]

London Overground is lengthening its Class 378's from 4 to 5 coaches with the possibility of extra trains as well:
http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2013/01/18-fivecar-overground-plan-moves-ahead.html

LONDON OVERGROUND is set to have its fleet enlarged by the end of next year, if plans now being considered by Transport for London go ahead.

It’s been revealed that there have been discussions about more trains and vehicles with Bombardier in Derby, which built the present Class 378 fleet a few years ago, and also with the Overground ROSCo, QW Leasing.

The additional investment is being proposed because Overground passenger figures are rising sharply and are projected to increase by another 25 per cent within a decade.

TfL says London Overground passenger figures have risen from 33 million a year on the former Silverlink Metro network to 88 million now. When the modernised East London Line is added, the annual total is almost 128 million.

The TfL Business Plan envisages the lengthening of all 57 Class 378 units to five cars from the December 2014 timetable. There may also be up to five additional trains, which would again be of five cars. The costs have not been revealed, but seem likely to be at least £120 million for the rolling stock, with infrastructure and depot upgrades on top.

 

[Wath Yard]

What happened to their plan to increase the GOBLIN 172s to 3 or 4 cars? Is that progressing or is it dead? Is it possible that the 5 extra units mentioned here could be used to replace the 8 * 2 car 172s if GOBLIN is electrified?

 

[anthony263]

Not sure about the GOBLIN since TFL and the government are still arguing about who should pay for it

Seriously why dont they pay half the costs each and get on with the work ordering a centre carriage for the class 172's in the meantime.

 

[hwl]

Not sure about the GOBLIN since TFL and the government are still arguing about who should pay for it

Seriously why don't they pay half the costs each and get on with the work ordering a centre carriage for the class 172's in the meantime.

The extra new units does have the sound of Goblin electrification about it - they will also be very useful while the existing units are taken out of service to add the new carriages and the lengthened units to be tested.
The recent NR CP5 plans seemed to leave Goblin electrification as outside the scope i.e. pushing TfL to offer some more cash.

172s -Could any more centre carriages be made to match the existing carriages as the original engine no longer met the current emissions rules for new engines?
I.e. new centre carriages would be very expensive for a small batch of 8 (or 16 as TfL also asked quotes for 2 extra cars per unit) as there would be lots of development work needed to fit a different engine (is a suitable design available???).
Assuming the lengthening quote or alternative of supplying complete new units (which was also a quotation option) came out as hideously expensive then this would make electrification look more financially attractive.

 

[sprinterguy]

172s -Could any more centre carriages be made to match the existing carriages as the original engine no longer met the current emissions rules for new engines?

The engines fitted to the 172s already don't comply to the latest emissions regulations? hock: That can't be right, surely. Otherwise MTU have developed an engine with one of the shortest saleable lives ever.

 

[D365]

The extra new units does have the sound of Goblin electrification about it - they will also be very useful while the existing units are taken out of service to add the new carriages and the lengthened units to be tested.
The recent NR CP5 plans seemed to leave Goblin electrification as outside the scope i.e. pushing TfL to offer some more cash.

172s -Could any more centre carriages be made to match the existing carriages as the original engine no longer met the current emissions rules for new engines?
I.e. new centre carriages would be very expensive for a small batch of 8 (or 16 as TfL also asked quotes for 2 extra cars per unit) as there would be lots of development work needed to fit a different engine (is a suitable design available???).
Assuming the lengthening quote or alternative of supplying complete new units (which was also a quotation option) came out as hideously expensive then this would make electrification look more financially attractive.

I don't think 5*5 car would be enough to serve Goblin electrics and provide a network-wide capacity increase, unless more units are ordered. Watford DC could be diverted through Primrose Hill and extended to Barking, but I doubt that will happen anytime soon.

It's been quoted several times across the forums that 172 engines do not comply with regulations - that were introduced in 2012? Crazy...

 

[hwl]

The engines fitted to the 172s already don't comply to the latest emissions regulations? hock: That can't be right, surely. Otherwise MTU have developed an engine with one of the shortest saleable lives ever.

New rail engines manufactured after 1/1/2012 have to meet IIIb emission rules. (IIIa for DMU sized engines was from 1/1/2007)
The existing units have the ...R83 engine variant, the current MTU variant is R85 which is apparently same engine just with a lot larger emission control system, for which the space has to be found some where...

Useful RSSB doc for background reading:
http://www.rssb.co.uk/SiteCollectionDocuments/pdf/reports/research/T536_rpt_final.pdf

 

[swt_passenger]

The extra new units does have the sound of Goblin electrification about it...

The TfL document that is probably the source of this suggests not. They mention there that the additional units are to increase peak frequencies; and they also mention that Goblin 2 to 3 cars is a separate matter, and I've just noticed that they mention only 2 additional units for the ELL - so maybe Railnews are speculating anyway?

...procurement of new Class 378 rolling stock cars to extend the existing four- car units to five-car units plus potentially additional five car units to increase peak service frequency.

and:

Works to the Gospel Oak to Barking route to increase train length from two car to three car are excluded from this paper. Proposals will only be brought forward when funding sources have been identified.

and:

Discussions are also being held on a price for the two additional units to enhance ELL frequency.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/corporate/Part-1-Item08-LOCIP.pdf

 

[Chris125]

The document doesn't actually say 5 extra units, but additional 5 car units which could be causing the confusion. Proposals for GOBLIN are specifically left out as they aren't currently funded.

Chris

 

[SWT_USER]

As soon as it is extended to 5 car trains it will need further extension again. It must be cheaper in the long run just to go for 8 car trains.

 

[D365]

As soon as it is extended to 5 car trains it will need further extension again. It must be cheaper in the long run just to go for 8 car trains.

That would be some very expensive future-proofing. Perhaps go for 6 cars as has been suggested in that report? And then improve frequencies.

 

[route:oxford]

TfL says London Overground passenger figures have risen from 33 million a year on the former Silverlink Metro network to 88 million now. When the modernised East London Line is added, the annual total is almost 128 million.

The costs have not been revealed, but seem likely to be at least £120 million for the rolling stock, with infrastructure and depot upgrades on top.

£0.94 per "passenger" for one year brings a fairly decent rolling stock upgrade.

Not bad value really, is it?

 

[tbtc]

Good news - investment in London seems to have a much faster return than elsewhere in the UK - and the Overground model has worked really well - the question is how many more carriage/frequency increases there can be before they reach a brick wall. A nice problem to have though - far changed since Silverlink and the 313s.

The engines fitted to the 172s already don't comply to the latest emissions regulations? hock: That can't be right, surely. Otherwise MTU have developed an engine with one of the shortest saleable lives ever.

I dunno, the 185s must run them close (designed for four coaches, built with three and then they'd stick in a fourth afterwards, then shortly afterwards the engines were no longer allowed)

 

[sprinterguy]

I dunno, the 185s must run them close (designed for four coaches, built with three and then they'd stick in a fourth afterwards, then shortly afterwards the engines were no longer allowed)

The same Cummins QSK19 design that is fitted to the 185s was also used in the Adelantes, Voyagers and Meridians though.

 

[swt_passenger]

As soon as it is extended to 5 car trains it will need further extension again. It must be cheaper in the long run just to go for 8 car trains.

Earlier TfL reports have discussed this in some detail. I believe on the ELL in particular there are big potential problems with longer than 5 cars. At least one of the key interchanges, Canada Water, has been built so that it is almost impossible to extend, and I think this station and the two either side of the Thames Tunnel rule out longer trains on the ELL without massive additional expense. All three stations are likely to be OK for SDO at 5 cars though, especially with the 378's wide gangways.

Others may have an opinion on Dalston Jn, and the other new stations on the new bit of the ELL, I'm not too familiar with that part of the line, but are any or all easily extendable?

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The document doesn't actually say 5 extra units, but additional 5 car units which could be causing the confusion. Proposals for GOBLIN are specifically left out as they aren't currently funded.

I agree, definitely think you're onto the answer there. Easy to miss that single word 'car' when skimming through the whole thing...

 

[tbtc]

The same Cummins QSK19 design that is fitted to the 185s was also used in the Adelantes, Voyagers and Meridians though.

Fair point

 

[Wath Yard]

It's been approved. 57 extra carriages to lengthen the current fleet to 5-car and a potential order for new trains - no. of units unknown.

http://www.railnews.co.uk/news/2013/02/07-tfl-approves-overground-fivecar-plan.html

 

[jopsuk]

Something worth pointing out with the ELL is that even in 4 car formation the 378s are a fair bit longer than the four car A-Stock they replaced- being an 80m train versus 65m. A six car train (which would have real problems at some of the subsurface stations) would almost double the length of the trains compared to the LU era!

 

[Monty]

Does anyone yet know if these new coaches will be trailers or motor coaches? I know these days most modern units have more than adequate power, but I just can't help thinking that adding another trailer to what was originally a 3 car unit may have an adverse effect on acceleration.

 

[swt_passenger]

Does anyone yet know if these new coaches will be trailers or motor coaches? I know these days most modern units have more than adequate power, but I just can't help thinking that adding another trailer to what was originally a 3 car unit may have an adverse effect on acceleration.

Those delivered as three cars had one unpowered car, and the extra car fitted when services were strengthened was an extra motor vehicle. The later trains delivered as four car from new had only a single trailer. So maybe back then they were already planning for the possibility of a 5th car...

It remains to be seen what the 5th cars might be, but even if trailers the units would still be 3M + 2T rather than 2T + 3M.

 

[Skoodle]

Others may have an opinion on Dalston Jn, and the other new stations on the new bit of the ELL, I'm not too familiar with that part of the line, but are any or all easily extendable?

Dalston Junction would be able to fit 5 car units on all platforms, perhaps the signals may have to be moved a little bit further away on platforms 2 and 3 though.

All other stations would be able to accommodate with little (moving of signals) or no work with the exception of Wapping, Rotherhithe and Canada Water. They will have to be SDO. Whitechapel on the other hand is another question. Once the Crossrail work is completed and the temporary bridge has been removed there may be room, however as it currently is it will most likely also be SDO.

 

[hwl]

Those delivered as three cars had one unpowered car, and the extra car fitted when services were strengthened was an extra motor vehicle. The later trains delivered as four car from new had only a single trailer. So maybe back then they were already planning for the possibility of a 5th car...

It remains to be seen what the 5th cars might be, but even if trailers the units would still be 3M + 2T rather than 2T + 3M.

The trailer is the vehicle that has the pantograph and transformer (or pantograph well and space for transformer if not fitted) and in common with many other EMUs presumably doesn't have tractor motors on the pantograph car to reduce weight due the weight of the transformer.

The motor cars have 3 motors per car but that might be more than is needed for the 5th car. 1 or 2 motors respectively on the 5th car would keep the same power : weight ratios as 3 or 4 car units).
So no obvious answer...

 

[455driver]

It remains to be seen what the 5th cars might be, but even if trailers the units would still be 3M + 2T rather than 2T + 3M.

Same thing isnt it, I think you meant the second one to be 2M+3T!

As you stated though, if the new coaches are trailers (they probably will be) then they will be 3 motor coaches and 2 trailers so no real issues with power.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The motor cars have 3 motors per car but that might be more than is needed for the 5th car. 1 or 2 motors respectively on the 5th car would keep the same power : weight ratios as 3 or 4 car units).
So no obvious answer...

The motor coaches have 2 motors (both on the inner bogie giving a 2-BO+2-BO+2-2+BO-2 wheel arrangement) and do not run at full power so just build a trailer coach, connect a laptop and increase the power output, no need for extra motors or any other silliness.

 

[bronzeonion]

The transformation of the NLL in such a short time is incredible

 

[Skoodle]

A four car 378 has 9 traction motors. There are three in each DMOS/MOS

 

[455driver]

A four car 378 has 9 traction motors. There are three in each DMOS/MOS

How are they arranged?

Your source for this information as 3 motors on a 2 axle bogie would be very odd indeed!

 

[Pumbaa]

It has come up before, and 2 resident LOROL drivers have confirmed 3 per car, 9 per train. Skoodle (assuming the same Skoodle off of other fora) makes it 3

 

[455driver]

So how are they geared together then?

Why do these have 3 TMs per MC but the 375,376 and 377s all have 2, it seems very odd to me to complicate the matter with 3 motors when 2 (bigger?) ones would suffice.

 

[D365]

I would expect the 57 new carriages to be MSOs. On ELL, wouldn't it be more practical to work on improving frequency instead of fifth cars, or would that require ATO? Where would we be without LO

 

[Skoodle]

378s were built specifically for short journeys with increased acceleration capabilites than the Electrostars, hence more motors and a seperate name to distinguish it "Capitalstar".