Fixed penalty fare - when I could have shown my ticket on a laptop

[andromache458]

I buy my tickets on Trainline. I had printed off a November 2019 ticket by mistake for a 24 January 2020 journey from Liv St to Colchester on a Greater Anglia journey. I showed this ticket at the exit gate (I did not attempt to conceal that I had the wrong ticket, which I only realised just as I was leaving the train). I was issued at the gate with a fixed penalty notice (FPN), and told that I could appeal online within 21 days. I said that I could show my valid ticket if the officer would let me use a laptop or other device. (I do not own or carry a phone). This option was not offered.

I have appealed online through Appeals Service, AS. However, it stated on the appeal form that there are only two grounds for appeal, and previously buying a valid ticket before the journey is not one of them! This is NOT what I was told when the notice was issued. I have uploaded the proper ticket with my appeal, but it seems that this is not a defense against a FPN. I can't tell you what the 2 grounds are, because you cannot get back to that page once your appeal is submitted. All this seems v irregular, and when my appeal is rejected (as i think it will be) I will ask about the transparency of the FPN rules on Greater Anglia. Does anyone have a view about the laptop, the misleading advice that I'd be OK if I had a valid ticket, or the missing guidelines after appeal is submitted?

 

[tom73]

A Penalty Fare is issued when the rail official believes the passenger has made a genuine mistake.
Your Penalty Fare was correctly issued and were I in your position, I would accept it was my own fault and move on.
I cannot really imagine a rail employee checking tickets would even consider allowing a passenger to bring out a laptop, turn it on and log on to his e-mail just to avoid paying a small penalty for his own mistake. I know I wouldn't unless my job description required me to.

 

[gray1404]

The problem here is that the RPI refused to look at the correct ticket when it was offered. They should have. This is no different to a passenger having a load of paper tickets in their wallet and giving over the wrong dated one, being advised of this and then getting the correct one out. Or indeed a passenger showing the outward portion rather then a return. Being advised and then showing the correct one.

If a customer accidentally shows the wrong ticket that in it's self is not grounds to issue a Penalty Fare. The RPI should have advised passenger of wrong date, customer noticed, hang on I'll show you the correct one. Passenger does so. End of problem. It might not have taken the passenger long at all too bring up their ticket. I can switch on my laptop and have a document open in under 1 minute. The RPI made an error because they refused to look at the valid ticket the customer was offering. Wrong.

 

[Essan]

What is the difference between a laptop or tablet and a phone? The latter seem acceptable ...

 

[Bletchleyite]

I cannot really imagine a rail employee checking tickets would even consider allowing a passenger to bring out a laptop, turn it on and log on to his e-mail just to avoid paying a small penalty for his own mistake. I know I wouldn't unless my job description required me to.

I can't see any reason he should not be allowed to do that. The penalty is for not holding or being able to present a valid ticket. Using the laptop, he could present one.

 

[sheff1]

What is the difference between a laptop or tablet and a phone? The latter seem acceptable ...

It would appear some rail staff have made up rules that a ticket cannot be shown on a laptop.

 

[CrispyUK]

My understanding from the original post is that the passenger wasn’t carrying a laptop or other device of their own, but suggested at the gate line that if the staff there could offer them the usage of a laptop or similar device, they would be able to log on to their Trainline account using it and retrieve the correct ticket.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My understanding from the original post is that the passenger wasn’t carrying a laptop or other device of their own, but suggested at the gate line that if the staff there could offer them the usage of a laptop or similar device, they would be able to log on to their Trainline account using it and retrieve the correct ticket.

Oh, I see, he wasn't carrying said laptop? As things stand that wouldn't be acceptable and a PF would be correctly issued.

 

[island]

If you were unable to show a valid ticket when asked, that is a valid reason for the issuance of a Penalty Fare. The railway does not have to let you use one of their devices to print your e-ticket.

You now need to pay the Penalty Fare if you have not already done so to avoid incurring additional costs.

 

[jon0844]

How could you show a valid ticket on a laptop if it has to be printed out first?

 

[gray1404]

I might have misread this or taken it the wrong way. If the OP had another device (does not have to be a phone) which they were willing to show the e-ticket on, as these don't have to be printed, then I would say the Penalty Fare was incorrectly issued and there are grounds for appeal. It is however vital to get the wording of an appeal right. However, if the OP was unable to show the e-ticket on another device they were carrying then it sounds like the Penalty Fare was correctly issued.

It is possible to appeal a Penalty Fare up to 3 times so if the OP has not submitted the strongest of appeals first time, has valid grounds and wishes to appeal again then they could come back here for advise first. However, it would be helpful if they could confirm if they were actually offering to show their e-ticket on another device of their own (such as a laptop) on the day and if this offer was refused. Note that offering to show it on a railway owned laptop is not an option.

Finally, there are many different grounds for appeal against a Penalty Fare. Not just two. One other avenue would be to check if the signage was correct. I am not sure what the signage is like a London Liverpool Street. I am also wondering how the OP managed to get through the ticket barrier (assuming there was one) with their ticket for the wrong day at the start of their journey.

 

[najaB]

I am also wondering how the OP managed to get through the ticket barrier (assuming there was one) with their ticket for the wrong day at the start of their journey.

It's a few years since I had to go to Norwich but my experience was the the gateline was often left open for the Norwich trains.

 

[some bloke]

it stated on the appeal form that there are only two grounds for appeal, and previously buying a valid ticket before the journey is not one of them!

The grounds for appeal are in regulation 16(3) here. Ground (d) is "compelling reasons", which is broad:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2018/366/made

However, regulation 5(1) says that failure to produce a valid ticket means the passenger is liable for a penalty fare. That is quite sensibly read as meaning that you have to produce it, rather than that you have the option of asking for facilities to produce it.

So technically, if you mean that you wanted to use someone else's device to produce a ticket, it looks like you're liable unless you can successfully argue that there are compelling reasons (or the penalty fare was not charged in accordance with the regulations).

 

[_toommm_]

Did TheTrainLine issue E-Tickets back then, or was it still M-Tickets? Surely, if it was the former, it could be shown as a laptop as a last resort?

 

[Llanigraham]

Did TheTrainLine issue E-Tickets back then, or was it still M-Tickets? Surely, if it was the former, it could be shown as a laptop as a last resort?

But if the OP does not have his laptop with him and expects the staff to provide those facilities? That isn't something they are expected to do.

 

[_toommm_]

But if the OP does not have his laptop with him and expects the staff to provide those facilities? That isn't something they are expected to do.

Ahh yes, I've just re-read the original post. My apologies.

 

[Haywain]

It's a few years since I had to go to Norwich but my experience was the the gateline was often left open for the Norwich trains.

That has not been my experience.

 

[talltim]

As a side question, with electronic tickets, does the railway have their own record of the ticket, i.e. when it’s scanned it reads ticket #123456 valid A-B, or does the scan just read the validity?

 

[jamiearmley]

The scan reveals ticket type, price, origin and destination. Price paid. Time of purchase (in a penalty fare area, a penalty fare can be issued if ticket purchased after boarding). Any railcard or other discount. Any booked trains (e.g. advance ticket). Ticket number, which is unique, and can be used by back office systems to identify purchaser (name, billing address) and in certain circumstances be used to investigate purchase history (example : expired railcard withdrawn, associated ticket number submitted, account investigated for all tickets purchased since railcard expired, : example : travelling not on booked train on advance ticket, failure / refusal to obtain correct ticket, ticket number submitted in report, passenger details known for investigation). Hope this helps. (As an aside, this info is also available from the "tod" number printed on paper tickets which were bought online/ through an app).

 

[Vespa]

This the reason why I print two copies of everything one and a spare just for this type of scenario.

You could go as far as the courts then present to the judge your ticket with your name booking details time of purchase for the journey fined for to prove you did have a valid ticket for the journey at that date and time.
Its a high risk strategy, the judge can throw it out as its proved you weren't deliberately evading fares or you lose and pay a fine plus costs.

If you win, make sure you claim costs off then for your time and expense.

 

[30907]

The scan reveals ticket type, price, origin and destination. Price paid. Time of purchase (in a penalty fare area, a penalty fare can be issued if ticket purchased after boarding). Any railcard or other discount. Any booked trains (e.g. advance ticket). Ticket number, which is unique, and can be used by back office systems to identify purchaser (name, billing address) and in certain circumstances be used to investigate purchase history (example : expired railcard withdrawn, associated ticket number submitted, account investigated for all tickets purchased since railcard expired, : example : travelling not on booked train on advance ticket, failure / refusal to obtain correct ticket, ticket number submitted in report, passenger details known for investigation). Hope this helps. (As an aside, this info is also available from the "tod" number printed on paper tickets which were bought online/ through an app).

I am assuming that the ticket as described was scannable. Is the scsn process sophisticated enough to prevent multiple use of the same ticket by different/the same persons? (I am not insinuating that the OP was doing this).

 

[najaB]

You could go as far as the courts then present to the judge your ticket with your name booking details time of purchase for the journey fined for to prove you did have a valid ticket for the journey at that date and time.

A Penalty Fare has been issued and appealed so I don't understand the reference to court?

 

[WesternLancer]

I buy my tickets on Trainline. I had printed off a November 2019 ticket by mistake for a 24 January 2020 journey from Liv St to Colchester on a Greater Anglia journey. I showed this ticket at the exit gate (I did not attempt to conceal that I had the wrong ticket, which I only realised just as I was leaving the train). I was issued at the gate with a fixed penalty notice (FPN), and told that I could appeal online within 21 days. I said that I could show my valid ticket if the officer would let me use a laptop or other device. (I do not own or carry a phone). This option was not offered.

I have appealed online through Appeals Service, AS. However, it stated on the appeal form that there are only two grounds for appeal, and previously buying a valid ticket before the journey is not one of them! This is NOT what I was told when the notice was issued. I have uploaded the proper ticket with my appeal, but it seems that this is not a defense against a FPN. I can't tell you what the 2 grounds are, because you cannot get back to that page once your appeal is submitted. All this seems v irregular, and when my appeal is rejected (as i think it will be) I will ask about the transparency of the FPN rules on Greater Anglia. Does anyone have a view about the laptop, the misleading advice that I'd be OK if I had a valid ticket, or the missing guidelines after appeal is submitted?

Basically my view is this is pretty bad luck - but surely it's a bit similar to having paper tickets, leaving the correct one for the journey at home, picking up an old one by mistake, and then asking the RPI to let you get the correct one tom morrow to show him you had it all along. It probably would not work.

You've probably got to go along the appeal route / deal with the TOCs customers services and prevail on their good will in the hope they may refund you as a 'goodwill gesture' - but it's a long shot.

It's obvious that you were not trying to dodge the fare, so they might be amenable to it - but if it was a penalty fare area I guess the whole process is designed to be simple and not involve discretionary decision making, but you never know your luck...

 

[Vespa]

A Penalty Fare has been issued and appealed so I don't understand the reference to court?

That would be the next step if the appeal is turned down and you still refuse to pay, usually a claims court or county court.

 

[andromache458]

Thanks, everyone. Gray1404 asks how I got through the barrier at Liv Street. I was allowed through by a guard. My (wrongly printed) ticket was rejected at the e-gate when I boarded the train. I showed it to the platform guard, he looked at it and swung the gate open. I still had no idea it was the wrong ticket until I was leaving the train an hour later. Perhaps I could argue in my appeal that I was given permission to board at Liv St.

When the penalty was issued, the Greater Anglia officer said that if I could prove I had previously bought the right ticket, the notice would be cancelled. This is false advice. When you appeal online, just two grounds are given, and proving you had a ticket is not one of them. Some posters have said there are additional grounds in the legislation, but that only shows how defective the appeal system is - I am not a lawyer, and I have to trust the online form that AS provides. I paid £10 for my ticket; the penalty fare is £57! I have written to Greater Anglia asking what training they give to their officers when they issue the notice.

I am wondering what I could have done at Liv St if I had realised I had the wrong ticket, 20 minutes before the train departed - it seems there is no way I could have accessed the email without my own device.

 

[WesternLancer]

Thanks, everyone. Gray1404 asks how I got through the barrier at Liv Street. I was allowed through by a guard. My (wrongly printed) ticket was rejected at the e-gate when I boarded the train. I showed it to the platform guard, he looked at it and swung the gate open. I still had no idea it was the wrong ticket until I was leaving the train an hour later. Perhaps I could argue in my appeal that I was given permission to board at Liv St.

When the penalty was issued, the Greater Anglia officer said that if I could prove I had previously bought the right ticket, the notice would be cancelled. This is false advice. When you appeal online, just two grounds are given, and proving you had a ticket is not one of them. Some posters have said there are additional grounds in the legislation, but that only shows how defective the appeal system is - I am not a lawyer, and I have to trust the online form that AS provides. I paid £10 for my ticket; the penalty fare is £57! I have written to Greater Anglia asking what training they give to their officers when they issue the notice.

I am wondering what I could have done at Liv St if I had realised I had the wrong ticket, 20 minutes before the train departed - it seems there is no way I could have accessed the email without my own device.

Yes, all reasonable points to make. I guess the chap at the barrier probably glanced at your ticket and did not notice it was not valid - had he done so, and refused you access, it would seem to me that your only choice would have been to walk up to a ticket machine or counter and buy a new, valid ticket (just as if you had left a paper ticket at home and only realised when you got to the station) - you could then have probably refunded the unusued ticket later in the day (unless it was an Advance Fare) - but minus the £10 admin fee for that would probably have been a bit academic.

But given the price you paid it looks like it was probably a booked train only Advance fare.

http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=LST&dest=COL

 

[furlong]

When the penalty was issued, the Greater Anglia officer said that if I could prove I had previously bought the right ticket, the notice would be cancelled.

The "officer" is acting as a representative of the company and holding the company to its word ought to constitute a "compelling reason".

(In future in situations like this, always get an agreement like this put into writing so it cannot be disputed later.)

When you appeal online, just two grounds are given,

I have no idea what you mean by these 'two grounds' but you should read the regulations yourself and if you consider that the appeals mechanism is not compliant with them - for example if it fails to provide for an appeal to be made under 16(3)(d), that gives you further grounds for appeal (and should also be taken up with the DfT to insist that all other Penalty Fares issued in this situation get cancelled).

14.—(1) Where, at any time, an operator does not satisfy the appeals requirements the operator
must ensure that a collector authorised by the operator does not charge a penalty fare on the
operator’s behalf.
(2) Where a penalty fare is charged to a person on behalf of an operator and paragraph (4)
applies, the person is not liable to pay the penalty fare.
...
(4) This paragraph applies if—
(a) the operator did not satisfy the appeals requirements at the time the penalty fare was
charged;
or
(b) there is a time at which the person could appeal under regulation 16, 17 or 18, and at that
time the operator does not satisfy the appeals requirements.
(5) An operator “satisfies the appeals requirements” for the purposes of this regulation if the
operator has—
(a) made arrangements for—
(i) an Appeal Panel to consider any appeal under regulations 16 and 17 against a penalty
fare charged on its behalf,
...
16
...
(3) The grounds on which an appeal under this regulation may be made are that—
(a) the penalty fare was not charged in accordance with the requirements of these
Regulations;
(b) the appellant is not the person liable for the payment of the penalty fare;
(c) the appellant owns a season ticket valid for the journey in question but was not in
possession of the season ticket at the time the penalty fare was charged; or
(d) there are compelling reasons why, in the particular circumstances of the case, the
appellant should not be liable to pay the penalty fare.

 

[andromache458]

I have no idea what you mean by these 'two grounds' but you should read the regulations yourself ...

Thanks for the advice. One of the two grounds, I remember (please bear in mind that this information is erased after you submit the appeal form) was that the officer "failed to exercise their discretion" to waive the penalty. I suppose they can use this discretion if there is no facility to buy a ticket at the boarding station. The other ground was equally narrow - that the passenger was not liable to pay for some reason or other, perhaps. The penalty appeal system reminds me of schools appeals. In principle, it's purely administrative, you just fill in the form, and getting a lawyer involved gives you no advantage. In practice, a lawyer hardly ever loses a school appeal, whereas the unassisted parent loses 50% of the time. I take your point that if the rail appeal form is defective, this can become grounds for further appeal. There was no reference at all, on the form, to the relevant legislation or to any supplementary guidance.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

@andromache458, how much is the FPN? How far are you prepared to go, e.g. all stages of the appeal. What if your appeal fails at all stages and the rail company decide to take you to court? How much time and energy do you have on your hands? Are you willing to "go all the way?"

Alternatively, if you don't want to go through the stress and hassle of this process, you might just want to pay the FPN and move on

It might seem a terrible injustice but you were unable to show a valid ticket for your journey upon arrival at Colchester

 

[najaB]

That would be the next step if the appeal is turned down and you still refuse to pay, usually a claims court or county court.

Who would be unlikely to concern themselves with if the OP did or did not have a ticket. They would be concerned with if a debt existed or not - which it would in the form of an unpaid penalty fare.